OK, new reloader here.

 

First attempt using cast bullets....9mm 125 grain r/n to be exact.  3.9 gr of N320 and COL at 1.138 to 1.142.  Crimp is at .377.

 

Major bullet tumble and accuracy out to 13 yards  was for hsit.  I know...sometimes its the indian and not the arrow.  Sorry...I can hit a steel plate at 13 yards.  I had to hold 2 O'clock to hit the plate. 

 

Any help will be appreicated. 

 

 

Rifling all gunked up with lead?

 

Did you work the load up? Bullet isn't stabilized which means it could be over powered/pressure..

Tumbling at close range is usually the result of low pressure/low velocity. The bullet doesn't get spinning fast enough to stabilize. 40 years ago when I started shooting PPC I tried every crutch available to help my scores before I knew better. The lightest trigger pulls and the lightest loads were two of them. I had a light load of Bullseye that was like shooting a 22. At 7 yds it worked fine but started to keyhole ar 15. Only 100fps or so from a factory wadcutter but it made a big difference on target. I abandoned all these crutches such as light loads and turning a revolver into more of a toy with light springs when I learned how to shoot better and developed the finger and hand muscles.

 

50-100 fps can make a lot of difference when it come to stabilizing a bullet. Shoot a factory wadcutter at a 50 yd target from a 2" and at least half your bullets will be tumbling or keyhole. Do the same thing with a 4" and the problem goes away.

 

I don't use N320 but your load seems to be on the light end. Try increasing the charge and try the new load on paper at 25 yds.

I did a little digging.

 

http://www.practicalhandgun.com/vihtavuori-n320-ipsc-loads.html

 

this data shows a shorter COL. Griz is probably right.

I've got a hard copy of a VV load book --  Your over 1/2 a grain light on the starting load for N320

 

What is the actual, measured diameter of the bullet your loading?   Is your barrel all buggered up with lead?

 

What it sounds to me --   Your not pushing the lead bullet fast enough. Especially if it's .354 or.355 Diameter 

 

The lead bullet needs enough powder behind it to deform the base of the bullet just enough to seal the barrel and not let burning gases get past

 

The hot gases will melt the bullet and cause heavy leading of the barrel if allowed to get alongside the bullet while traveling down the barrel.  Could definitely cause a tumbling bullet. 

 

Have you shot these at paper targets?  Further than 7 yards?  Is the hole in the paper round? 

Although I diagnosed the velocity issue JackDaWack hit it on the head with OAL apparently the issue. The solution if you have a bunch of rounds loaded this way is to reseat to proper OAL and crimp.

 

If you want to keep this OAL (I can't see why you would) you need to increase the powder charge.

The OAL probably isn't the issue. It's the low velocity from the light powder charge. If Heavyopp was correct and you are an entire half grain of powder short of the starting load then that is probably your problem.

 

Load the proper powder charge and then you can adjust your OAL. OAL is a whole different topic we can get into.

 

Lastly, I suggest a chrono ASAP. No reloader should be without one.

LOW POWDER CHARGE

OVER CRIMPING

LOW POWDER CHARGE

OVER CRIMPING

Over crimping as you just mentioned is also a culprit. His crimp doesn't seem too tight though. Unless he crimped it really hard and the brass sprung back out some while the bullet got crushed.

Powder manufacturer from their website gives a powder range of 3.8 to 4.1 gr with an OAL of 1.142 with similar bullets. That's a pretty narrow range AFAIC.

 

You're controlling velocity and pressure with a balance of powder charge, OAL, and crimp. Whatever you decide to experiment with only change one at a time.

Thanks to everyone for the great replies and information.  It's much appreciated.

 

I did in fact chrono a sample of these rounds.  The first number is the COL for the specific round tested and the second is the VFPS for that specific round.  The powder charge "should" be at 3.9.  I say should be because that's what I was throwing on my samples, but I didn't hand measure each powder charge.

 

Beretta 92FS - 1) 1.139 = 1064  2) 1.142 = 1102  3) 1.126 = 1123  4) 1.146 = 1084  5) 1.141 = 1071 6) 1.141 = 1068  7) 1.129 = 1093  8) 1.126 = 925.2   9) 1.144 = 1057  10) 1.134 = 1116

 

M&P Pro  -  1) 1.133 = 934.4  2) 1.128 = 1042  3) 1.135 = 1107  4) 1.143 = 1056  5) 1137 = Err2 6) 1.147 = 1121 7) 1.132 = 1062  8) 1.143 = 1040 9) 1.140 = 911.3  10) 1.139 = 891.8

Rifling all gunked up with lead?

Gun was clean as a whistle.

I don't use N320 but your load seems to be on the light end.

As you noted, the min charge for a 124 GR bullet is 3.8 for the N320.  These are 125gr/rn bullets, so does that 1 extra grain negate the 1 extra grain on my charge?  I didn't weigh the bullet heads, but I will before pressing out the next 500.

 

I wanted to start on the lower end of the charge because I'm new at this and would rather load a squib than overcharge and blow up my gun. lol  Nothing to do at all with competitive advantage.  I don't mind a sharp recoil. 

As you noted, the min charge for a 124 GR bullet is 3.8 for the N320. These are 125gr/rn bullets, so does that 1 extra grain negate the 1 extra grain on my charge? I didn't weigh the bullet heads, but I will before pressing out the next 500.

 

I wanted to start on the lower end of the charge because I'm new at this and would rather load a squib than overcharge and blow up my gun. lol Nothing to do at all with competitive advantage. I don't mind a sharp recoil.

Underpressure charge can cause a kaboom just as easily.

 

I'd walk the charge up a bit. I've never used vv powders but it seems that you might have some room to go up. Work it up slowly and keep an eye on pressure signs.

Have you shot these at paper targets?  Further than 7 yards?  Is the hole in the paper round? 

Yes, and no, not a round hole.  That's how we discovered they were tumbling at close to medium range.  Then when I couldn't hit a steel plate at a what is essentially a chip shot distance I knew I had an issue.

Your data looks fine out of the 92 except for a few inconsistencies with col and fps. Probably a small charge variation. But a 125gr bullet should stabilize at 1100fps. You do notice the lower fps with a longer col. But that's assuming you used the same exact charge.

 But that's assuming you used the same exact charge.

That's the issue.

 

I don't know because I didn't measure each specific charge for the tested round, so there very likely was a variation. 

 

There is a lot of trial and error. 

 

What is really strange is anything that I've loaded and tested before, including factory ammo, always runs hotter out of the M&P than from the Beretta.   But if you look at round # 2 in the 92FS and #'4 & 8 from the M&P, the rounds chrono'd hotter from the Beretta.  They were essentially the same COL. 

 

It's enough to drive you batty...

From what you've said,  it doesn't sound like much is off.  My load data came from a VV book that I've had for 

 

Velocities look fine -- maybe a little slow, but still shouldn't be as big a problem as you say 

 

How many of these bullets do you have?  Sell them or shoot them and never use them again is my suggestion -- There's plenty out there to choose from -- No need to deal with a bullet that doesn't work for you

 

I'll attach a photo of the page from the VV load book -- It's a first edition Vihtavuori reloading manual printed in 1994 -- I bought it with my 1st pound of VV powder -- in 1994

 

The data is for a 4" barrel with a 1 in 10 twist using CCI 500 primers

 

 

 

 

Let me just throw this into the mix: You may be over-crimping. The dimension you show should be OK, but it depends how far back on the case the crimp dimension extends. Remember, the 9mm case is slightly tapered - not straight-walled - so if the .377" crimp extends to where the base of the bullet falls within the case, you may have reduced the bearing surface of the bullet, causing it to yaw, which would destabilize the bullet once it clears the barrel.

 

I saw this at a match I shot at a couple weeks ago, but in that instance it was obvious that was the problem. New reloader who figured if a little is good, more must be better. His rounds were so heavily crimped that it swaged the bullet to the point it looked like a heeled bullet for a .380/200.

 

Just a thought. If nothing else, the above replies show there could be a myriad of things that cause what you are experiencing. Eliminate one variable at a time. Good luck.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

The data is for a 4" barrel with a 1 in 10 twist using CCI 500 primers

Wow...the minimum load on that chart is higher than the maximum load charge they list online today.  Unless I'm reading the online guide wrong.

 

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/template/goodies/vihtavuori_reloading_guide_ed11_2013eng.pdf

Let me just throw this into the mix: You may be over-crimping.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Thanks Bob.

 

I used the .377 crimp because that's what any factory ammo I had on hand was set at, and when I say crimp, I probably should say "outside diameter" of the cartridge at the top of the case.  The crimp, to me, if anything seems light, but I didn't want to make it too tight, so I mirrored a crimp that I know worked in our guns.  Granted, those were for jacketed ammo, but I figured it was a safe place to start.

 

Another thing I'll mention is that when I showed the round to Alex the first thing he said was "looks too long." 

Wow...the minimum load on that chart is higher than the maximum load charge they list online today.  Unless I'm reading the online guide wrong.

 

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/template/goodies/vihtavuori_reloading_guide_ed11_2013eng.pdf

Looks like your right to me... Only explanation I can think of is Lawyers

 

Goes to show you,  start low and work your way up and find out what works for you in your gun. 

 

I always start within printed charge weights in one of the printed, published books on my shelf and work my way up in .2 grain increments loading 15 rounds each

 

I load to the same OAL and just go to the indoor range and try everything on paper checking each piece of brass for pressure signs.  Whichever powder charge gives me the best group I'll then load. If I want to further refine it I'll start to adjust OAL.

 

 I always try to use the lightest crimp possible, basically just to iron out the belling of the case from the expander die.  I also use a lyman M die to expand.

 

It doesn't over bell the case.

 

Remember --  Just change 1 thing at a time when looking for the perfect load...

What should I be looking for on the spent brass that would indicate pressure issues? 

What should I be looking for on the spent brass that would indicate pressure issues? 

 

Flattened primers. Sticky extraction (kind of hard with a S/A, but if you get a bunch of FTE's could be an indicator).

Lets also not forget the other possible causes: worn out barrels and undersized bullets.

 

The first isn't that likely specially in a 9mm, it is more of an issue for rifles (worn out 5.56 barrel, hitting sideways at 25yards sitting in my parts pile).

 

The other however is not as unlikely as it may sound. For example I used to shoot 147gr Zero's and one day they started shooting wild. Turns out the latest batch I had from them was undersized but I had loaded a couple thousandth rounds and they were mixed new batch and old batch in my box of loaded ammo so I pretty much had to write off the whole batch as practice ammo.   With the current shortages and everyone running plants into overtime, I wouldn't be shocked to see some bad batches of bullets floating around.

Lets also not forget the other possible causes: worn out barrels and undersized bullets.

 

The first isn't that likely specially in a 9mm, it is more of an issue for rifles (worn out 5.56 barrel, hitting sideways at 25yards sitting in my parts pile).

 

The other however is not as unlikely as it may sound. For example I used to shoot 147gr Zero's and one day they started shooting wild. Turns out the latest batch I had from them was undersized but I had loaded a couple thousandth rounds and they were mixed new batch and old batch in my box of loaded ammo so I pretty much had to write off the whole batch as practice ammo.   With the current shortages and everyone running plants into overtime, I wouldn't be shocked to see some bad batches of bullets floating around.

This. A while back I had a huge issue with a case of USAmmo...keyholing and very inconsistent grouping to say the least...bullets flying all over the place lol. IIRC there was a problem with undersized bullets, particularly at the OGIV.

 

This. A while back I had a huge issue with a case of USAmmo...keyholing and very inconsistent grouping to say the least...bullets flying all over the place lol. IIRC there was a problem with undersized bullets, particularly at the OGIV.

 

Lol don't listen to this guy he's just a new shooter

Lol don't listen to this guy he's just a new shooter

You sunofa...

 

lol

Lol don't listen to this guy he's just a new shooter

He takes the phrase "throwing rounds down range" to a whole new meaning.

You sunofa...

 

lol

That's funny squibber you know it