July 11, 201313 yr Just wondering if you can use black powder as opposed to smokeless powder for common handgun loads like 9mm, 40, 45acp. Or is it only for certain rounds guns?
July 11, 201313 yr These rounds are not meant for black, just smokeless. Cartridges loaded with black powder are for antique weapons systems.
July 12, 201313 yr Oh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j84J7VQ02CQ Interesting indeed. It would seem as though it can be done. The question is, Why would you? Ken
July 12, 201313 yr For modern cartridges (9mm, .40) there's not enough space to get enough powder in there to reliably get the bullet out the barrel (energy density of BP is a lot lower than smokeless). For a legacy cartridge like .38 spl and apparently .45 you could do it but why?
July 12, 201313 yr Rifle or pistol, pick-up a finished cartridge case and merely shake it. If you can feel smokeless bouncing-around, it will hold BLACK! Most of you Kids don't know the history behind the development of cartridges: .30-.30 .30-.40 Krag .44-40 .45 Colt .45-70 .45-90 .45-120 All are originally black powder..........
July 12, 201313 yr Rifle or pistol, pick-up a finished cartridge case and merely shake it. If you can feel smokeless bouncing-around, it will hold BLACK! Most of you Kids don't know the history behind the development of cartridges: .30-.30 .30-.40 Krag .44-40 .45 Colt .45-70 .45-90 .45-120 All are originally black powder.......... Often (not always) the second number in the caliber designation was the number of grains of black powder that was the standard loading for that round. There was a fellow that shot a USPSA match at Shongum with his 1911 loaded with black powder rounds. Have to admit that I, too, am in the "Why?" camp - but it can be done. Adios, Pizza Bob
July 12, 201313 yr Correct Pizza Bob. Only the 30-30 started off as first a smokeless cartridge, but could be reloaded with blackpowder (30 grs.) it's accuracy was abysmal with blackpowder though. Hence the development and loading of the .32 Win. Spcl. for their lever-action to offer the same performance with dual-capabilities. Originally a smokeless loading, it was designed to be reloaded with blackpowder and it had a rate of twist more suited to blackpowder. (It had a slightly bigger bore, different rate of twist than the .30-30 to reduce fouling.) There's a lot of straight-walled cases from the old days that fit that bill for blackpowder. I plan on loading this, the .50-70 Govt: Track of the Wolf recently got some Starline.50-70 brass in stock. Now I need to find bullets so I can duplicate the 450 gr. load over 70 grains of blackpowder. I wish I cast my own but I don't. I can use smokeless powder to duplicate the standard factory load (450 gr. bullet over 70 grains of blackpowder) with IMR's SR4759 or AA's 5744, or resort to blackpowder or Pyrodex if I get desperate.
July 12, 201313 yr Parker: Can Trail Boss be used for that application? Bob, From what I'm finding on the CastBoolits forum, Trail Boss can be used as well. It's one powder I've never tried but it seems to have an application here. I'll do some more research now. Thanks.
July 12, 201313 yr I've kinda wanted to get a 45 colt lever action just so I could reload using black powder. Something about it just screams Wild West to me.
July 12, 201313 yr Bob, Just about any BP substitute can be used in place of real black in cartridges. Some burn cleaner than others (not always wanted, since a slightly fouled barrel will shoot more accurately). Real Black likes to be compressed to a "point of uniform ignition", which in laymen's terms means that upon ignition almost all of the powder gets a chance to fully burn before the round has left the muzzle. Through the application of lubed wads (commercially available in almost all calibers from .31- .62, and special orders for beyond that) a re-loader can compress the black powder sufficiently to obtain uniform ignition, which in turn lowers the sdv thereby resulting in a very accurate loading. Loose black powder that isn't compressed often gives poor results due in part to extremely high sdv's, often resulting in a shotgun-like pattern instead of accurate groups. I have first-person knowledge of this in my attaining both NRA Rifle and Pistol Distinguished Expert ratings. Even my Model 1847 Uberti Colt Walker Cap-N-Ball revolver loves the uniform measurement of the quantity as well as the depth of the ball being seated firmly upon the rifle charge of 52 grains of 3Fg Goex pistol powder that I feed it. Friends of mine on other forums participate in .45-70 black powder shoots with their Sharps rifles at ranges out to 1K yards! With a 405 grain RNFP bullet and heavier (some at 500 grains). That all being said, some BP subs like Triple-7 are unsuitable for black powder cartridge loading since compressing those fast-burning powders will result in too high a pressure, which might harm some older antiques or at the very least, fire-form the case to the inside of the chamber walls making extraction nearly impossible without a squib rod of some sort. Any time you "want to play with Explosives", just send me a PM for an invite to either of the two Clubs I shoot black at. And believe it or not, SASS has a Division that uses 1911's with black powder! It boggles my mind too.......... Dave
July 12, 201313 yr Dave: I'm aware of BP substitutes like Pyrodex and Triple 7, but Trail Boss is a single base smokeless powder - not a BP substitute. It has a burning rate similar to Bullseye, but a loading density many times higher. Whereas 6 grains of Bullseye in a .45 Colt case gets lost in the bottom of the case (slight exaggeration), 6 of Trail Boss practically fills the case, leaving just enough room for the bullet. Although it is primarily a handgun powder, I had heard of people using it successfully in many of the old time big bore BP rifle cartridges - hence my question to Parker. I was into and out of BP before there even was a Pyrodex - but I still have my Navy Arms Berdan-Wesson replica in my safe. I had a Ruger Old Army at one time also - sold that to a member of the US Black Powder Shooting Team. Just too lazy to clean BP guns. Enjoy. Adios, Pizza Bob
July 12, 201313 yr Going by what you just typed about Trail Boss taking-up the roominess of a .45 Long Colt case it makes sense to me that other straight-walled cartridges would benefit. If six grains fills-up a .45 case I wouldn't dare even sneeze in the same room when weighing powder charges....that stuff must be lighter than air itself, lol! None of my BP friends use it, so I can't comment further except to say I'll put the word out to ask for you. There must be some magic formula of powder, wad, bullet and crimp that lets you fill a case with smokeless and not blow-up.... Stay cool my man! Dave
July 19, 201313 yr Author Wow this was a really interesting read. Crazy how the differences in burn rates and characteristics affect the way the bullet leaves the gun.
July 19, 201313 yr Going by what you just typed about Trail Boss taking-up the roominess of a .45 Long Colt case it makes sense to me that other straight-walled cartridges would benefit. If six grains fills-up a .45 case I wouldn't dare even sneeze in the same room when weighing powder charges....that stuff must be lighter than air itself, lol! None of my BP friends use it, so I can't comment further except to say I'll put the word out to ask for you. There must be some magic formula of powder, wad, bullet and crimp that lets you fill a case with smokeless and not blow-up.... Stay cool my man! Dave Nah, it just mostly is air. It looks like a bunch of miniature washers.
July 20, 201313 yr I've got some .45-70 rounds loaded with 14.5 grains of Trailboss waiting to go bang. I've been wondering if this will be okay in an 1873 Springfield, or if I should just shoot Black powder in it.
July 20, 201313 yr I've always heard smokeless powder in a black powder gun is a no no. I've heard that too, but the reloading manuals list smokeless recipes for an 1873.
July 20, 201313 yr I've heard that too, but the reloading manuals list smokeless recipes for an 1873. A updated model maybe? Not a true black powder frame
July 20, 201313 yr I've heard that too, but the reloading manuals list smokeless recipes for an 1873. If you go to Hodgdon's online reloading cartridge data center, they have smokeless loads for a variety of powders specific for Springfield Trapdoor's and Rolling Block's. All are below the maximum 28,000 CUP parameter. PS - I'd never use real BP in any of these. I would not have the patience for cleaning them.
July 20, 201313 yr If you go to Hodgdon's online reloading cartridge data center, they have smokeless loads for a variety of powders specific for Springfield Trapdoor's and Rolling Block's. All are below the maximum 28,000 CUP parameter. PS - I'd never use real BP in any of these. I would not have the patience for cleaning them. Leads me to believe you have never tried it. I clean my blackpowder guns faster than most smokeless rifles.
July 20, 201313 yr I've got some .45-70 rounds loaded with 14.5 grains of Trailboss waiting to go bang. I've been wondering if this will be okay in an 1873 Springfield, or if I should just shoot Black powder in it. FWIW Rule-Of-Thumb: As long as it is under the max pressure for what is recommended by the powder company for a Trapdoor, you're fine! FYI, almost all .45-70 loads are good for Trapdoors and MOST of those that aren't will say so right on the box! They'll have a specific Trapdoor WARNING, such as the HOT Barnes loadings available at Cabela's or mail-order houses. These HOT .45-70 rounds are for AFRICAN Beasts, Moose, and Grizzlies, and they require a reinforced action like the Model 1895 Marlin Lever with reinforced bolt. These rounds were designed more than two decades ago, which is why there may be some confusion as to using smokeless in a .45-70. When in doubt, look-up the ballistics of the round you want to use and check the 100 yard trajectory specs. Trapdoor rounds all fall out of the sky like rocks and have about the same speed and arc. In addition, most will use 405 grain round-nose flat-point lead bullets, since they don't go fast or hot enough to lead-up the bore. Hope this helps... Dave
July 20, 201313 yr Leads me to believe you have never tried it. I clean my blackpowder guns faster than most smokeless rifles. I've been shooting a Renegade caplock since I acquired one in 1981. I'm pretty familiar with BP and BP substitutes. However, for cleaning a vintage cartridge rifle shooting BP, that I haven't done. I'll stick with smokeless powders.
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