You brought up a positive societal change to make a point that some chages are good.I agree, some changes are good and provided an even more important examle of such.

 

Not really sure though what the good changes of the past have to do with this thread per se. (but the "Vikings" DVD from the Great Courses is really, really interesting ;-).

 

 

I was suggesting that the conversion to Christianity had little to do with the outcome, or rather that the Viking integration into society was the more precise explanation. I'm not a religious person by any means and I'll leave it at that.

 

I don't think that change now is necessarily all bad or all good. I think ending the war on marijuana is good. I think increasing secularism is good. I think increasing tolerance of homosexuals is good. I know a lot of board members probably disagree citing "social/moral decay" as if the term has any real meaning.

I'll stick with the historic

 

I was suggesting that the conversion to Christianity had little to do with the outcome, or rather that the Viking integration into society was the more precise explanation. I'm not a religious person by any means and I'll leave it at that.

 

I don't think that change now is necessarily all bad or all good. I think ending the war on marijuana is good. I think increasing secularism is good. I think increasing tolerance of homosexuals is good. I know a lot of board members probably disagree citing "social/moral decay" as if the term has any real meaning.

I'll stick with the historic part of your post...(No point in discussing peoples beliefs - that usually requires a life changing event to create change).

 

As far as the Vikings, the integration in society was important (the course makes this apparent) but Christianity was a big-part of this integration. A common God, a common set of beliefs, a comon acceptable way of conducting yourself...The Vikings went from a Warrior Ethos, to a largly Christian ethos (with all the human faults we christians have of course). There is no doubt, IMHO, that this change was for the good (see above as to what Warrior Ethos ment in my post above - it wasn't pretty).

I'll stick with the historic

 

I'll stick with the historic part of your post...(No point in discussing peoples beliefs - that usually requires a life changing event to create change).

 

As far as the Vikings, the integration in society was important (the course makes this apparent) but Christianity was a big-part of this integration. A common God, a common set of beliefs, a comon acceptable way of conducting yourself...The Vikings went from a Warrior Ethos, to a largly Christian ethos (with all the human faults we christians have of course). There is no doubt, IMHO, that this change was for the good (see above as to what Warrior Ethos ment in my post above - it wasn't pretty).

 

Historically speaking of course, the "warrior ethos" and the "christian ethos" have not typically been mutually exclusive.

First they played tip the spot a potty. 

 

Then there were a few fights. 

 

Some hell raising but overall didnt seem over the top?

Historically speaking of course, the "warrior ethos" and the "christian ethos" have not typically been mutually exclusive.

Not really. True christian ethos is the followings of Christ (not necessairilly any religious organization's "version" of Christ)...If you study the new testimate, you would see there is exactly Zero ovelap btwn the worrior ethos and the Christian Ethos.

 

If you are talking about the Crusades (ie. an event induced by religious ORGANIZATIONs on both sides) there is some finite overlap. But to make any moral equivancy btwn Crusaders and Vikings is quite an incredable streatch.

I agree toadette, i'd add in less violence when raising kids, less reliance on public schooling, and of course less restrictive gun laws.

First they played tip the spot a potty.

 

Then there were a few fights.

 

Some hell raising but overall didnt seem over the top?

Bad behavior? Yes. End of society or the mark of rapid moral decline? Did anyone read the article and pay attention to the previous riots in the 80s that were actually riots, and not just technically riots? Seriously, if I saw that I'd tell you I witnessed a couple fist fights and some vandalism.

 

This is more like the mall food court thug. A very pale imitation of the real thing. In the 80s, the Huntington beach crowd had a rep for some pretty severe violence and rioting in the punk and hard core scene. It hasn't been a well behaved place for over 30 years. This isn't new.

Not really. True christian ethos is the followings of Christ (not necessairilly any religious organization's "version" of Christ)...If you study the new testimate, you would see there is exactly Zero ovelap btwn the worrior ethos and the Christian Ethos.

 

If you are talking about the Crusades (ie. an event induced by religious ORGANIZATIONs on both sides) there is some finite overlap. But to make any moral equivancy btwn Crusaders and Vikings is quite an incredable streatch.

 

I guess there really is no true Scotsmen, eh?

I guess there really is no true Scotsmen, eh?

Good way to end a discussion when you run out of counterpoints :-), but I do not see it applying in this case.

Good way to end a discussion when you run out of counterpoints :-), but I do not see it applying in this case.

 

I'm self-censoring my points so as to prevent this discussion from taking a death spiral like all conversations about religion typically do.

 

If it makes you feel better: Sure.

I'm self-censoring my points so as to prevent this discussion from taking a death spiral like all conversations about religion typically do.

 

If it makes you feel better: Sure.

LOL, we were getting off track as per the reason for this thread anyway....As for "feel better" - nah, no feeling involved...Like I've posted, there is no changing deep-ingrained beliefs, takes a life changing experience for that. -This is just some mild mental entertainment.

Interesting thread with great input from many sides.

 

I agree that our culture has changed. And we have seen an eroding of parents' role to one of chauffeurs, cruise directors and unequivocal cheerleaders for their children. Since the Dr. Spock books in the 60-70's we have developed what I call "the cult of children" where they are coddled and nurtured into little assholes that inevitably grow up to be big assholes. While I agree that violence is not the way to discipline. It doesn't work with dogs or children, I do believe that the roles of the parents, especially of the father, needs a renaissance. And kids need to realize early on that they are not the center of the universe. Walk through any mall and see quite the opposite. And anyone that employs recent grads will see, first hand, the result of all the coddling.

 

:rant on:

They get coddled in grammar school, then high school. College is now just high school +. Did you know that in some colleges the RAs go around and wake up students for early classes? How many kids deliver newspapers? Cut lawns? We are indoctrinating kids into going straight from wards of their parents to wards or the state. Ever read "It takes a village" by thunder thighs?

:rant off:

 

I weep for the future.

 

On the Viking thing.

The salient point, to me, is that religion was the construct that did what it was designed to do--control. Just like gun control isn't really about guns, religion isn't really about a deity. How the early church viewed the warrior Vikings isn't all that dissimilar from how those in power view us gun owners/preppers/tinfoil types.

 

See what I did right there?

 

 

 

 

Interesting thread with great input from many sides.

 

I agree that our culture has changed. And we have seen an eroding of parents' role to one of chauffeurs, cruise directors and unequivocal cheerleaders for their children. Since the Dr. Spock books in the 60-70's we have developed what I call "the cult of children" where they are coddled and nurtured into little assholes that inevitably grow up to be big assholes. While I agree that violence is not the way to discipline. It doesn't work with dogs or children, I do believe that the roles of the parents, especially of the father, needs a renaissance. And kids need to realize early on that they are not the center of the universe. Walk through any mall and see quite the opposite. And anyone that employs recent grads will see, first hand, the result of all the coddling.

 

:rant on:

They get coddled in grammar school, then high school. College is now just high school +. Did you know that in some colleges the RAs go around and wake up students for early classes? How many kids deliver newspapers? Cut lawns? We are indoctrinating kids into going straight from wards of their parents to wards or the state. Ever read "It takes a village" by thunder thighs?

:rant off:

 

I weep for the future.

 

On the Viking thing.

The salient point, to me, is that religion was the construct that did what it was designed to do--control. Just like gun control isn't really about guns, religion isn't really about a deity. How the early church viewed the warrior Vikings isn't all that dissimilar from how those in power view us gun owners/preppers/tinfoil types.

 

See what I did right there?

Interesting spin on the Viking thing...Agree with part 1: Relegious organizations are very much about control, but unfortunatly, our species needs alot of moral control (as discussed above) and religion is an effective (usually) way to accomplish this...Part 2: Not so much: Extending the Viking thing to gun control is rather, hum, rediculous - you are impliying Gun Owners are murders, extortionists, deal in slave trade, terrioriest. This is what the Vikings did as literally a Business - it is not the "Romanic" (genra, not as in love) image you get from the Viking Movies like Tony and Kirt in the movie "The Vikings". One of my favorite movie of all time BTW...Sosh-up, don't give the Anti's the idea that we have the same morals as the Vikings - good grief! (I enjoyed your idea though :-))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFes1Rl2l0Q

Interesting spin on the Viking thing...Agree with part 1: Relegious organizations are very much about control, but unfortunatly, our species needs alot of moral control (as discussed above) and religion is an effective (usually) way to accomplish this...Part 2: Not so much: Extending the Viking thing to gun control is rather, hum, rediculous - you are impliying Gun Owners are murders, extortionists, deal in slave trade, terrioriest. This is what the Vikings did as literally a Business - it is not the "Romanic" (genra, not as in love) image you get from the Viking Movies like Tony and Kirt in the movie "The Vikings". One of my favorite movie of all time BTW...Sosh-up, don't give the Anti's the idea that we have the same morals as the Vikings - good grief! (I enjoyed your idea though :-))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFes1Rl2l0Q

All good input. But the point was not that we are like savages that the missionaries have to convert. Obviously we are not like Vikings and the murderous hoard they were. I know that Hagar the Horrible was just a cartoon and not a historical record. But if you tame down both sides of the equation the allegory is fitting. To the antis we are savages that cling to "religion and guns" (see how they replaced one overlord for another there) they would rather we clung to government and welfare. It's the same. Control is control. On occasion it works out, like with taming the Vikings and smallpox. Other times not so much.

 

Before we stampede to rejoicing in the tamping down of a culture by swapping freedom for security or comfort, lets remember that there were probably some Vikings meeting in caves at the time discussing the very same thing we do here on a daily basis. My reference is this: before religion, everybody worked 24/7/365. Missionaries come and offer a day off(sabbath)in exchange for submission. They also tell you that they will make allowances for your pagan holidays in their framework. Guess what? You just traded your freedom for a little comfort.

 

The one constant throughout history is human nature. You can always count on that.

 

 

 

 

All good input. But the point was not that we are like savages that the missionaries have to convert. Obviously we are not like Vikings and the murderous hoard they were. I know that Hagar the Horrible was just a cartoon and not a historical record. But if you tame down both sides of the equation the allegory is fitting. To the antis we are savages that cling to "religion and guns" (see how they replaced one overlord for another there) they would rather we clung to government and welfare. It's the same. Control is control. On occasion it works out, like with taming the Vikings and smallpox. Other times not so much.

 

Before we stampede to rejoicing in the tamping down of a culture by swapping freedom for security or comfort, lets remember that there were probably some Vikings meeting in caves at the time discussing the very same thing we do here on a daily basis. My reference is this: before religion, everybody worked 24/7/365. Missionaries come and offer a day off(sabbath)in exchange for submission. They also tell you that they will make allowances for your pagan holidays in their framework. Guess what? You just traded your freedom for a little comfort.

 

The one constant throughout history is human nature. You can always count on that.

No wonder they call you "Walt Disney" ;-)...

 

Hey I have a little quiz on the Viking era for you and SGTToadet as you guys seem to like to discuss this sort of stuff....

 

Q: So trade routes between Scandinaver and Europe and the Baltics existing for many centries before the Viking Era (so there was plenty of interaction btwn all these regions). What was the single most important factor which enabled the Scandinavians/Vikings to assert thier reginal/global dominance for hundresds of years staring around 750-790?

I really have no interest in that period in history.

This is why the Right to Keep and Bear Organophosphates shall not be infringed.