It's a fundamental aspect to firearms shooting.  You should at least know how to aim using irons and how to zero them.  But using them predominantly is a thing of the past.  RDS and optics are faster and superior.  That being said, I keep an AR-15 in stock config and enjoy shooting it irons only.  Same with my Garands and 1903.

Frankly, Its a evolution of the "standard".

 

It used to be that every rifle came stock with iron sights. So much so, they were physically integrated into the gun and couldn't easily be removed. 

 

Then as time progressed, alternate sighting systems became so superior and prominent to irons, they went from being an alternate luxury/upgrade/specialization and became the new standard. So much so, rifles will often come without any sighting system, no to mention one baked in.

 

Sure there are plenty of rifles with irons still, but these tend to be guns reminiscent of an older overall design and purpose.

 

Its your classic paradigm shift.

Have paid for an appleseed, waiting for available time to take it.  Will be using irons when I do.

Y'all with your fancy pants bazillion hour battery powered toys with lots of high priced quality components, whoopee for you.  You have a magnificent plan A.  Smart people always have a plan B too, yanno, just in case.

Your post makes no sense.

I still use iron sights often. I my m&p-15 and m16-a1 both have only irons

Y'all with your fancy pants bazillion hour battery powered toys with lots of high priced quality components, whoopee for you.  You have a magnificent plan A.  Smart people always have a plan B too, yanno, just in case.

 

 

When you run iron sights only, what is your plan B?

Y'all with your fancy pants bazillion hour battery powered toys with lots of high priced quality components, whoopee for you. You have a magnificent plan A. Smart people always have a plan B too, yanno, just in case.

You clearly don't know me or have any real world experience on this topic.

 

There are numerous TTPs that deal with different sighting methods and backups.

 

Some involve BUIS, others involve other techniques and equipment.

When you run iron sights only, what is your plan B?

Ha!

When you run iron sights only, what is your plan B?

Fix bayonets....oh wait...

You clearly don't know me or have any real world experience on this topic.

 

There are numerous TTPs that deal with different sighting methods and backups.

 

Some involve BUIS, others involve other techniques and equipment.

 

Aww geez.  You fellas are too smart for me.  You apparently know everything.  You win, I guess.

Aww geez.  You fellas are too smart for me.  You apparently know everything.  You win, I guess.

 

No, but really, what is your plan B with iron sights?

Is this a mall ninja vs fudd thang?

Regardless of preference it is the ability to keep rounds on target when your hair is on fire. Iron,glass,dots all work, it's the ability to stay in the fight (overcoming your fear) that most times wins the day. JMOP

Regardless of preference it is the ability to keep rounds on target when your hair is on fire. Iron,glass,dots all work, it's the ability to stay in the fight (overcoming your fear) that most times wins the day. JMOP

 

Which fight exactly? Not everyone owns guns for the upcoming zombie apocalypse. I think its fair to say that most gun owners will never have to overcome much fear at all. 

 

I'm fine with the notion that one might need to at some point, maybe, but reality is also important.  

No, but really, what is your plan B with iron sights?

The reliability of fixed iron sights is extremely high, it would take an awful lot to render them unusable.  This is not to say that everyone should throw away their optics.  A quality RDS or scope adds tremendous capability to a weapon.  When in proper working condition, they are almost always superior to iron sights.  They make an excellent plan A.  However, glass breaks, mechanical parts degrade and electronics fail.  From an engineering standpoint, the more components a system has the more likely it is to fail.  It is a statistical certainty.

 

 

Anyone who relies solely on an optic, powered or not, is putting all of their eggs in one basket.  Yeah, one could go on about advanced concepts like TTP, or Tactics Technique and Procedure.  But just us plain old average folks don't need such fancy theories  of training.  All regular folks need to do is have a reliable set of iron sights, learn how to use 'em and then go on ahead and mount a good optic to make life easier.  This way, if someone who has a cheap failure prone optic finds themselves blind they will have a plan B. 

 

Plain and simple, having and learning how to use open sights is a benefit.  It does not make one more or less manly, it just makes them more competent and gives them better odds. That's all.

 

Now, if y'all don't mind I have some shopping to do.  I'm looking at red dots for my M4. 

So .. all those hunting guns with only scopes and no irons?  They don't work?

 

Also statistical certainties have almost nothing to do with number of parts. Parts come in different quantities, qualities and purposes. Again, I have broken MANY iron sights, although admittedly most on pistols, but also twice rifle type sights in shotguns, and twice AR sights and I have never broken an optic. 

 

I guess I'm a statistical anomaly. 

Scorpio64, your last post stands in pretty heavy contrast to your earlier posts. I think if you look, you will find that the majority of people proposing optics in this thread said that BUIS were present. That they were a plan B. But you should consider that some have a plan B in the form of the pistol on their side. But I don't want to digress into a urban combat, military action, civil unrest derail.

When I do teach my kids to shoot I will have them learn on iron sights first then move up to optics. I just ordered tech sights for my marlin 795, hopefully they will live up to their reputation.

 

Tech Sights are great.  I have them on a 10/22, works really well teaching a new shooter.

Vlad no zombies. All the zombies I recall lived and breathed . You seem to liken most threads to a chess match. Like I said it was just my opinion. I think I read that you like 3 gun. Am I wrong to believe that this is a form of QCB drills but with plates instead of simulated enemy combatants , and how about the other courses of fire that are suppose to simulate defensive pistol uses.Regards John

 You seem to liken most threads to a chess match. Like I said it was just my opinion. I think I read that you like 3 gun. Am I wrong to believe that this is a form of QCB drills but with plates instead of simulated enemy combatants and how about the other courses of fire that are suppose to simulate defensive pistol uses.Regards John

 

Hi John, I like to challenge people's assumptions and I encourage them to do the same to me.  I'm not winning on points or anything, but we can all get stuck in very strange metal ruts and being occasionally pushed out of them is good for anyone.  My point here was not everyone shoots guns to prepare for a life and death situation, and that most people will never see one, so lets not look at firearm usage entirely through that prism. 

 

3gun is a competition. It is a sport, it is a game. Sure, someone somewhere will say it some for of militia training for the revolution, but they would be full of it, there is nothing tactical or realistic about it, except the bit where the shooter and the equipment get pushed to the limits. Some will tell you that IDPA or USPSA have practical roots, and that is true, but anyone who shoots them and thinks it is training is fooling themselves. Same with 3gun. I do it because its fun. 

 I do it because its fun. 

It's been so long that I don't remember.

"But an RDS uses a battery and can fail! Then what do you do?" Depending on distance, it makes a handy ghost ring. Try it, I think you would be surprised how well you can still hit your target.

 

 

I thought I was the only one that does that! shot off the dot.. center the tube on the silhouette, and shots DO get on target.. perfectly.. no.. but on target.. yep.. 

 

I shot irons to sight them in.. then flipped them down.. and there they sit.. I mean I occasionally shoot them once in a while.. but I have a spare battery for my aimpoints with my chest rig.. "in case".. with that said I leave them on pretty much all the time.. and as HE said I change them once a year.. I have yet to have an issue..

Vlad fair enough, thanks for the explanation on the 3 gun and related events. Thing that drives me nuts is standing around waiting to shoot.......Got spoiled getting paid to shoot in my former life,and the military allowed me to shoot lots and lots of rounds but not always for fun. PS remember in NJ with it's stupid justifiable need everyone needs to be fearful

Thing that drives me nuts is standing around waiting to shoot.

My answer to anyone complaining about that at a match is that you aren't helping enough

I love my Irons!! but am trying my hand at the long range game so a scope is needed! Everything has its place but Irons will always work and be there when you need them. To learn shooting you must use irons "Sight alignment" then "Sight picture" and  "trigger control" new shooters need to know how this works and a 4x red dot wont teach you that!

I love my Irons!! but am trying my hand at the long range game so a scope is needed! Everything has its place but Irons will always work and be there when you need them. To learn shooting you must use irons "Sight alignment" then "Sight picture" and  "trigger control" new shooters need to know how this works and a 4x red dot wont teach you that!

 

 

they dont need to learn that if they dont plan to use them... my fiance can use irons.. like if she had to.. but in the beginning it was red dot only.. because it was easy.. and well she shot VERY well..

they dont need to learn that if they dont plan to use them... my fiance can use irons.. like if she had to.. but in the beginning it was red dot only.. because it was easy.. and well she shot VERY well..

 That all good! My opinion.. If you want to learn to be a good marksman then you need to learn how( Again my Opinion right)..  I can see how it can give confidence to a new shooter but like when I teach someone how to shoot a bow or guns we go without all the cams and optics lasers and such. all they are is a crutch for your own skill and compensate for short comings of marksmanship. but they do build confidence in a new shooter because it a ton easier to hit the bull. Teach them the difference if they show an interest  in the sport they will love the challenge and benefits in the long run. .. Again not a bad thing most optics can turn an poor shooter into an good one. but a marksman they are not.

 

. http://www.thenewrifleman.com/marksmanship-basics-the-new-shooters-guide/  

Tech Sights are great.  I have them on a 10/22, works really well teaching a new shooter.

great sights

Hi John, I like to challenge people's assumptions and I encourage them to do the same to me.  I'm not winning on points or anything, but we can all get stuck in very strange metal ruts and being occasionally pushed out of them is good for anyone.  My point here was not everyone shoots guns to prepare for a life and death situation, and that most people will never see one, so lets not look at firearm usage entirely through that prism. 

 

3gun is a competition. It is a sport, it is a game. Sure, someone somewhere will say it some for of militia training for the revolution, but they would be full of it, there is nothing tactical or realistic about it, except the bit where the shooter and the equipment get pushed to the limits. Some will tell you that IDPA or USPSA have practical roots, and that is true, but anyone who shoots them and thinks it is training is fooling themselves. Same with 3gun. I do it because its fun. 

works for me!