The Second Amendment vs. the Fourth Amendment

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/04/why_liberals_should_be_alarmed_that_courts_are_eroding_the_second_amendment.html

 

An interesting discussion

 

"Does exercising your right to carry a gun diminish your other constitutional protections?"

While as a practical consideration, pretty much everything to date including breathing seems to be readily accepted by the judiciary as reducing your 4th amendment protections, so I would say yes. 

Very interesting article, and appearing in "Slate" no less???? 

 

I guess we'll have to see where this goes in the courts and if it gets up to SCOTUS. Still, I wonder if this is not more a "regional" issue. That is, is LE more likely to want to search/seize in places where the expectation of people carrying is much less (NJ, NY, etc.), and not so much in regions where there is a reasonable expectation of people carrying (i.e. places where carrying (either OC or CC) is SOP)? Down here, the LEOs who make traffic stops all know that people could be carrying. And if they ask and are told the truth, most will just say "keep it there and your hands away from it..."   and proceed from there. Some may even strike up a conversation with you about it. But I get that in areas where carry is not expected that it might invoke that response from LE.  This is why I have always said, even if the 2A Gods were to waive their magic wands and make NJ "Shall issue" and "Open Carry" tomorrow, it still wouldn't work all that well, initially. It will take a bit of a cultural evolution to make it sufficiently SOP as to not cause those responses from LE or the public in general.

Very interesting article, and appearing in "Slate" no less???? 

 

I guess we'll have to see where this goes in the courts and if it gets up to SCOTUS. Still, I wonder if this is not more a "regional" issue. That is, is LE more likely to want to search/seize in places where the expectation of people carrying is much less (NJ, NY, etc.), and not so much in regions where there is a reasonable expectation of people carrying (i.e. places where carrying (either OC or CC) is SOP)? Down here, the LEOs who make traffic stops all know that people could be carrying. And if they ask and are told the truth, most will just say "keep it there and your hands away from it..."   and proceed from there. Some may even strike up a conversation with you about it. But I get that in areas where carry is not expected that it might invoke that response from LE.  This is why I have always said, even if the 2A Gods were to waive their magic wands and make NJ "Shall issue" and "Open Carry" tomorrow, it still wouldn't work all that well, initially. It will take a bit of a cultural evolution to make it sufficiently SOP as to not cause those responses from LE or the public in general.

Its not going to be good here in NJ for a while if HR 38 passes. I think you hit the nail on the head. The police here in this state are not use to law abiding citizens carrying guns.  Not like just about every other state in the union where people carry. 

Its not going to be good here in NJ for a while if HR 38 passes. I think you hit the nail on the head. The police here in this state are not use to law abiding citizens carrying guns. Not like just about every other state in the union where people carry.

When hr 38 passes there should be expectations on us to go above and beyond with officer compliance.

Traffic stop while carrying. Acceptable to be dis armed and cuffed? Perhaps a hot seat in the back of the squad car?

I'd be ok to anything vs being shot.

Seems like the Illinois' case of Markell Horton could easily happen in NJ right now.

 

One can legally carry on one's land in NJ.  In the Illinois' case, Horton was carrying on his front porch; Horton was legally prohibited from carrying due to felonies, but the Police did not know that at the time and would have acted the same even if he was legal.

 

So what do you think would happen if the law drives by your house in NJ, you are sitting on the porch and they think they see a 1911 in your waistband?

 

On at least two occasions patrol officers have come around the back of my home when no one answered the door.  Both occasions they just had questions about one of my neighbors, but I wonder how they would react if I was holding a HG, say engaged in breaking it down for cleaning?

Seems like the Illinois' case of Markell Horton could easily happen in NJ right now.

 

One can legally carry on one's land in NJ. In the Illinois' case, Horton was carrying on his front porch; Horton was legally prohibited from carrying due to felonies, but the Police did not know that at the time and would have acted the same even if he was legal.

 

So what do you think would happen if the law drives by your house in NJ, you are sitting on the porch and they think they see a 1911 in your waistband?

 

On at least two occasions patrol officers have come around the back of my home when no one answered the door. Both occasions they just had questions about one of my neighbors, but I wonder how they would react if I was holding a HG, say engaged in breaking it down for cleaning?

It's a bold assumption to think LE didn't know Horton was a con.

It's a bold assumption to think LE didn't know Horton was a con.

Yes you are correct, if it is indeed an assumption.  The Slate article states that "At the time of the search, the officers only knew that a man with a gun was inside of a house."  I am assuming the statement by Slate was researched and is correct.  Maybe not a good assumption with Slate?

 

But how do you think NJ LE would react if they drive by your house and you are on the porch with a concealed HG, or mowing the lawn with an OC?

Cc, never know. Oc? Why?in this state.

Cc, never know. Oc? Why?in this state.

On my property, doing chores? OWB is going to be more comfortable for a start.

 

In the front yard I'd be inclined to wear my shirt over it so it could be mistaken for a phone or something on my belt.

 

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"Brandishing a firearm "

Cc, never know. Oc? Why?in this state.

Yeah, never know if properly concealed.  In the Slate story it sounds like Horton was trying to CC, but apparently did not do a good job of it.

 

As for OC, I did not ask why--I would probably not OC in any state.

Question is what would happen here to someone engaged in the legal activity of carrying not brandishing a firearm on their land in NJ?

Do you think that would work out well?

No, not at this time.

And yet, I pause, hunters do it all the time. In this state.

So, maybe we are making more of this than we should?

Nothing in NJ law defines brandishing. Try not to point your firearm at another person :-)

 

Nothing in NJ law prohibits you from open carrying where legal (home/work).

 

Depending upon where you live you will probably get calls to 911 though.

No, not at this time.

And yet, I pause, hunters do it all the time. In this state.

So, maybe we are making more of this than we should?

 

My understanding is that OC of long guns in a hunting context (i.e. on land one could reasonably expect to hunt successfully) is the only acceptable context for OC of long guns in NJ, away from one's home or business. I would definitely not want to try to claim I was hunting rats down Raymond Blvd. in Newark when stopped and questioned as to why I was OCing a long gun there.  

My understanding is that OC of long guns in a hunting context (i.e. on land one could reasonably expect to hunt successfully) is the only acceptable context for OC of long guns in NJ, away from one's home or business. I would definitely not want to try to claim I was hunting rats down Raymond Blvd. in Newark when stopped and questioned as to why I was OCing a long gun there.  

 

As long as you have a FPID card you can open carry an unloaded long gun in NJ. It's a great way of meeting your local LEO's.

As long as you have a FPID card you can open carry an unloaded long gun in NJ. It's a great way of meeting your local LEO's.

 

Like I said, I wouldn't be trying to hunt rats down Raymond Blvd.