Hey guys and gals.

So we have had a number of optics ready discussions and writing an article on this.  Would appreciate some responses to the poll and if you can share your opinions here.  Thanks!

CBP is moving to an optics ready sidearm... which I will likely put one on when approved. I’ve heard rumors that OFO (which I’m apart of) might have to go 19, with BP having the 47 (17... pretty much). Either scenario, more so with the 19, I’m getting a Gen 5 34 (with optic, but like it since the cutout is gone) as a personal gun... and likely a CMMG Banshee to go along with it.

I’ve heard a lot of good reviews of the setup (red dot pistol), but the main interest for me was CBP going with it. I considered having a gun cut for it, but just too much work, considering most of my guns were plated. I do have to research it more, as I want to get high enough sights to back them up to the red dot. Likely getting a suppressor... so, win-win.

You are missing some Data points on these questions.

1) I want an optic but I am not looking for an optic ready pistol because I prefer to have the optic milled for direct attach.

2) None. I don’t want an optic ready pistol. I’ll pay $250-$400 for custom millwork to get what I want. The price I’m willing to pay is dependent on features, options, services, and quality.

4) My pistol is life saving equipment. I want the best equipment possible to make hits at distance under all lighting conditions - to include NODS. I’m looking for enhanced offensive capabilities. I will also use the optic for training and competition in furtherance of my end goal. I don’t care what it looks like and gaming/comps are not my primary use concerns.

14 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

You are missing some Data points on these questions.

1) I want an optic but I am not looking for an optic ready pistol because I prefer to have the optic milled for direct attach.

2) None. I don’t want an optic ready pistol. I’ll pay $250-$400 for custom millwork to get what I want. The price I’m willing to pay is dependent on features, options, services, and quality.

4) My pistol is life saving equipment. I want the best equipment possible to make hits at distance under all lighting conditions - to include NODS. I’m looking for enhanced offensive capabilities. I will also use the optic for training and competition in furtherance of my end goal. I don’t care what it looks like and gaming/comps are not my primary use concerns.

Thanks.

So for "Optics Ready" I am not simply talking about a pistol with interchangeable plates, but pistols that are also milled deep for a specific optic, i.e. My ZEV OZ9 comes milled specifically for an RMR pattern.

So generally mean, either or... plates like MOS type systems OR milled already for a specific optic.

Versus going out and having the slide milled after the purchase of a pistol.

I am also glad for your unique point of view from the LEO/Mil aspect and I think that is where it is going to differ from most of the consumers.  Will edit the options but yes, I totally get it that it is a tool and makes you more capable.

Thanks.

19 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

You are missing some Data points on these questions.

1) I want an optic but I am not looking for an optic ready pistol because I prefer to have the optic milled for direct attach.

2) None. I don’t want an optic ready pistol. I’ll pay $250-$400 for custom millwork to get what I want. The price I’m willing to pay is dependent on features, options, services, and quality.

4) My pistol is life saving equipment. I want the best equipment possible to make hits at distance under all lighting conditions - to include NODS. I’m looking for enhanced offensive capabilities. I will also use the optic for training and competition in furtherance of my end goal. I don’t care what it looks like and gaming/comps are not my primary use concerns.

What questions do you suggest I add or choices edited?

28 minutes ago, Maksim said:

What questions do you suggest I add or choices edited?

Question 4 should have an N/A option just like question 3.

4 minutes ago, Regular Guy said:

Question 4 should have an N/A option just like question 3.

Yup or a "just because" option 

3 minutes ago, fishnut said:

Yup or a "just because" option 

Agree 

I absolutely HATE, the whole optics ready scene because it was the start or the downfall of uspsa. 

I can't take the poll cus I can't answer #4

Just now, louu said:

I absolutely HATE, the whole optics ready scene because it was the start or the downfall of uspsa. 

Why is Carry Optics so bad?

Or should it all go back to 45 ACP 1911s?

Optics on pistols is not something I plan on doing, ever.   Unless I find money.

30 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Agree 

 

34 minutes ago, fishnut said:

Yup or a "just because" option 

 

37 minutes ago, Regular Guy said:

Question 4 should have an N/A option just like question 3.

Done.

1 minute ago, Maksim said:

Why is Carry Optics so bad?

Or should it all go back to 45 ACP 1911s?

First part, it's not, but, it's open division end of story. 

Second part, no, the 2014 rule book is perfect. 

Now we have weekly rule changes, no real printed rulebook, people shooting rifles (at a pistol match) that rarely run and a lot of wasted time with rule arguments/discussions. 

I wish Mike Voight was still alive and president. 

 

7 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Optics on pistols is not something I plan on doing, ever.   Unless I find money.

You could always sell a dozen or two of your Gshocks 

Just now, fishnut said:

You could always sell a dozen or two of your Gshocks 

I am a fashionista 

3 minutes ago, louu said:

First part, it's not, but, it's open division end of story. 

Second part, no, the 2014 rule book is perfect. 

Now we have weekly rule changes, no real printed rulebook, people shooting rifles (at a pistol match) that rarely run and a lot of wasted time with rule arguments/discussions. 

I wish Mike Voight was still alive and president. 

 

Granted, I have not been involved in the management in the past few years, but looking nationally, Optics Carry seems to be well liked and growing in popularity.

Agree on the rulebook and the new "gas pedals" being okay in Production is a total

Shooting pistol caliber carbines... I do understand, but I think net net, USPSA needed to allow them, otherwise, we already saw 3 gun take away a lot of membership.  

I would think perhaps a separate event like steel challenge?

But in any case, you are starting to sound like a USPSA old timer FUDD! =P

I think this is the future like it or not. There will always be resistance to new technology. A few years from now i think "optics ready" will be standard equipment on guns but better implemented then it is now. Optics for hand guns will be completely bullet proof, dependable and affordable. The tech is changing fast already look at the fn 509 tactical optics ready, its mounting system is very different than glock mos and seems to be better. I am going the milled route though.

24 minutes ago, david8613 said:

I think this is the future like it or not. There will always be resistance to new technology. A few years from now i think "optics ready" will be standard equipment on guns but better implemented then it is now. Optics for hand guns will be completely bullet proof, dependable and affordable. The tech is changing fast already look at the fn 509 tactical optics ready, its mounting system is very different than glock mos and seems to be better. I am going the milled route though.

Personally?  I think it's a fad. (in the consumer segments).

Optics have been used in various circles for quite a while already and are just getting popular with mainstream.

In either case, talking to a few FFL's today, was told very few are actually coming in and asking for optics ready firearms. 

I think it is also a tad interesting that Smith  & Wesson has not updated the M&P Core to the 2.0 treatment.  

I think there is also the fact of how many people will spend another $300 on top of the gun to add the optic? 

6 hours ago, Maksim said:

Personally?  I think it's a fad. (in the consumer segments).

Until CBP, which is the largest Federal L/E agency, ordered optics ready pistols... I would have agreed with you.

When they made their solicitation, CBP used a survey that they put out to field personnel... on what they wanted in a firearm. While sidearms are being issued with standard sights/standard plates, you’ll see a lot of interest in where it goes from here... especially with BP and how hard they are on their guns. If it gets utilized effectively, you’ll see other agencies follow suit... and likely more interest across the board. Higher interest, prices do have to come down.

But from the amount of talk I’ve heard about it, I’m interested in seeing where it moves from here. Personally, I think it will be the future... not as big of a jump as from revolvers to semi-autos, but in the ball park.

12 hours ago, Maksim said:

Granted, I have not been involved in the management in the past few years, but looking nationally, Optics Carry seems to be well liked and growing in popularity.

Agree on the rulebook and the new "gas pedals" being okay in Production is a total

Shooting pistol caliber carbines... I do understand, but I think net net, USPSA needed to allow them, otherwise, we already saw 3 gun take away a lot of membership.  

I would think perhaps a separate event like steel challenge?

But in any case, you are starting to sound like a USPSA old timer FUDD! =P

You just stay off my lawn! 

9 hours ago, Maksim said:

Personally?  I think it's a fad. (in the consumer segments).

Optics have been used in various circles for quite a while already and are just getting popular with mainstream.

In either case, talking to a few FFL's today, was told very few are actually coming in and asking for optics ready firearms. 

I think it is also a tad interesting that Smith  & Wesson has not updated the M&P Core to the 2.0 treatment.  

I think there is also the fact of how many people will spend another $300 on top of the gun to add the optic? 

I'm not really sure if it's a fad or not but I hope it is. I know for our New Jersey gun culture that the younger people that see it on YouTube and want it won't go out and get it because they think it's so difficult to get a pistol in New Jersey. The older types that don't mind getting the permits and buying tons of guns all the time are simply that, the older types. They don't believe in all this fancy technology s*** like you got to sync your Bluetooth to your gun and sign in to your Facebook account just to shoot a bullet. Although there are some of them that realize it helps with their deteriorating eyesight and are slowly coming around to red dots. 

2 hours ago, Screwball said:

Until CBP, which is the largest Federal L/E agency, ordered optics ready pistols... I would have agreed with you.

When they made their solicitation, CBP used a survey that they put out to field personnel... on what they wanted in a firearm. While sidearms are being issued with standard sights/standard plates, you’ll see a lot of interest in where it goes from here... especially with BP and how hard they are on their guns. If it gets utilized effectively, you’ll see other agencies follow suit... and likely more interest across the board. Higher interest, prices do have to come down.

But from the amount of talk I’ve heard about it, I’m interested in seeing where it moves from here. Personally, I think it will be the future... not as big of a jump as from revolvers to semi-autos, but in the ball park.

I do wonder if any studies were done on the fact that using a dot sight on a pistol, requires A LOT more training to shoot as effectively as iron sights...

My issue with firearms mounted optics is that they are like a crutch that holds you back, in most cases...   Just like lasers, you are wasting more time actively searching for the dot rather than just relying on training and point shooting at anything under 10 yards or so.

Of course, the one big caveat is guys who have vision issues... here I have ZERO issues with slide mounted optics and encourage it.

For everyone else, its a crutch that slows you down until you start shooting pistols beyond 40 yards or so and especially if you shitty stock sights with 3 dots, etc rather than a clean thin front blade that you can see, preferably a fiber optic, and clear rear sights.   There is a reason why very few competitive shooters who change their sights, change it to 3 dot or similar.

Of couse, I am not an optometrist so take it for what it is.

Best training tool I found for me is the SIRT pistols by NLT/Mike Hughes.  It replicates a glock down to the weight and loaded mag.  Shoots red laser to show you take up and green laser for trigger break.  I dry fire it daily even sitting at the desk.

What I found, and I would not if I did not have it... I can point shoot accurately, without actively aiming or aligning the sights, at things as small as 4 inches at distances out to 20 yards.  (I go around the house "shooting" things.)  

The one peace of kit I have zero issues with is a good light.

I suppose an extreme version of this would be like people who "aim" their gun at IDPA/USPSA targets that are at distances of 3 yards or so instead of just extending out the gun and putting the required rounds on paper. Yes yes, gun game, but when you have mere seconds in a self defense situation, there is no sense getting a 50 yard sight picture for a target 5 feet away. 

Sorry to get preachy guys and gals.

1 hour ago, Maksim said:

I do wonder if any studies were done on the fact that using a dot sight on a pistol, requires A LOT more training to shoot as effectively as iron sights...

My issue with firearms mounted optics is that they are like a crutch that holds you back, in most cases...   Just like lasers, you are wasting more time actively searching for the dot rather than just relying on training and point shooting at anything under 10 yards or so.

Of course, the one big caveat is guys who have vision issues... here I have ZERO issues with slide mounted optics and encourage it.

For everyone else, its a crutch that slows you down until you start shooting pistols beyond 40 yards or so and especially if you shitty stock sights with 3 dots, etc rather than a clean thin front blade that you can see, preferably a fiber optic, and clear rear sights.   There is a reason why very few competitive shooters who change their sights, change it to 3 dot or similar.

Of couse, I am not an optometrist so take it for what it is.

Best training tool I found for me is the SIRT pistols by NLT/Mike Hughes.  It replicates a glock down to the weight and loaded mag.  Shoots red laser to show you take up and green laser for trigger break.  I dry fire it daily even sitting at the desk.

What I found, and I would not if I did not have it... I can point shoot accurately, without actively aiming or aligning the sights, at things as small as 4 inches at distances out to 20 yards.  (I go around the house "shooting" things.)  

The one peace of kit I have zero issues with is a good light.

I suppose an extreme version of this would be like people who "aim" their gun at IDPA/USPSA targets that are at distances of 3 yards or so instead of just extending out the gun and putting the required rounds on paper. Yes yes, gun game, but when you have mere seconds in a self defense situation, there is no sense getting a 50 yard sight picture for a target 5 feet away. 

Sorry to get preachy guys and gals.

Maks, your putting out dubious info based on a frame of reference that isn’t universal.

Pistol RDS are not a crutch and are nothing like a laser in their use.

Would you agree a RDS is an advantage over iron sights on a long gun? It’s the same advantage on a pistol.

Just like on a long gun - the benefit of the RDS on a pistol is it gives you a single aiming plane and lets you remain target focused. You have 1 plane to focus on with a RDS - dot on target vs 3 distinct planes to line up - rear sight, front sight, target - with irons.

Like iron sights, you do need to practice. With practice there is no wasted time searching for the dot.

Look at shooters like JJ Racaza’s and other big comp shooters times and compare their iron sights times to their RDS gun times and see what shakes. Look at instructors like Scott Jedlinski of Moders Samurai or Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics and see what they are capable of with a RDS pistol and tell me it’s a “crutch”. I’ve taken classes with Scott - it isn’t a crutch. The RDS is absolutely a force multiplier for him regardless of the distance.

You've been to steel matches. You know the stage with 5 big plates up close. How many people still miss? In my experience a lot miss - Because they either go too fast, have bad trigger control, don’t use their sights, or some combo of the above.

When they miss, I sometimes ask if they knew they missed. The ones that use sights can call their misses - That means it was a trigger or speed issue. The ones that have no idea where there misses went, didn’t use their sights and therefore can’t correct on the next target or next run.

Yes the SIRT is a great tool - if you use it correctly. It’s designed to use the sights and the laser checks your work. If you are target focused and looking only for the downrange laser “hit” are training bad habits.

Personally, I always use my sights - even at close distance. It’s the only way to check your work. And since a fast miss does jack and shit, I’d rather take a few 100ths of a second and make sure I’m lined up.

Run a Guerrilla Approach Consistency Drill:

https://guerrillaapproach.com/product/consistency-target-free/

Directions are in the top right corner. You shoot it at 3 yards - nice and close. 

Try to run it clean with sights at speed.

Then try it without sights using “point shooting”.

If you have an RDS pistol, try it with that.

Compare and contrast - not just times, but accuracy and your ability to make corrections when you miss. 

Notice how you can correct your shots when using sights - because you have a reference. When looking over your sights, you can’t correctly adjust to fix your previous miss and get a hit on the next dot. With practice the RDS makes it even easier to make these corrections.

3 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Maks, your putting out dubious info based on a frame of reference that isn’t universal.

Pistol RDS are not a crutch and are nothing like a laser in their use.

Would you agree a RDS is an advantage over iron sights on a long gun? It’s the same advantage on a pistol.

Just like on a long gun - the benefit of the RDS on a pistol is it gives you a single aiming plane and lets you remain target focused. You have 1 plane to focus on with a RDS - dot on target vs 3 distinct planes to line up - rear sight, front sight, target - with irons.

Like iron sights, you do need to practice. With practice there is no wasted time searching for the dot.

Look at shooters like JJ Racaza’s and other big comp shooters times and compare their iron sights times to their RDS gun times and see what shakes. Look at instructors like Scott Jedlinski of Moders Samurai or Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics and see what they are capable of with a RDS pistol and tell me it’s a “crutch”. I’ve taken classes with Scott - it isn’t a crutch. The RDS is absolutely a force multiplier for him regardless of the distance.

You've been to steel matches. You know the stage with 5 big plates up close. How many people still miss? In my experience a lot miss - Because they either go too fast, have bad trigger control, don’t use their sights, or some combo of the above.

When they miss, I sometimes ask if they knew they missed. The ones that use sights can call their misses - That means it was a trigger or speed issue. The ones that have no idea where there misses went, didn’t use their sights and therefore can’t correct on the next target or next run.

Yes the SIRT is a great tool - if you use it correctly. It’s designed to use the sights and the laser checks your work. If you are target focused and looking only for the downrange laser “hit” are training bad habits.

Personally, I always use my sights - even at close distance. It’s the only way to check your work. And since a fast miss does jack and shit, I’d rather take a few 100ths of a second and make sure I’m lined up.

Run a Guerrilla Approach Consistency Drill:

https://guerrillaapproach.com/product/consistency-target-free/

Directions are in the top right corner. You shoot it at 3 yards - nice and close. 

Try to run it clean with sights at speed.

Then try it without sights using “point shooting”.

If you have an RDS pistol, try it with that.

Compare and contrast - not just times, but accuracy and your ability to make corrections when you miss. 

Notice how you can correct your shots when using sights - because you have a reference. When looking over your sights, you can’t correctly adjust to fix your previous miss and get a hit on the next dot. With practice the RDS makes it even easier to make these corrections.

I think you are taking my point out of context.

In a home defense situation when you are shooting an IPSC sized target at distances at 5 yards or so, are you really using your sights? 

Do you think any competitive shooter say B level or higher is taking the same sight picture at a target at 5 yards as they do shooting a target at 25 yards or 50?

Of course they are not!

 

That's the point that I am trying to make... in MOST situation, under 10 yards,  hunting for the dot takes far longer than just having a modest sight picture... If you are shooting for say the "A Zone" on an IPSC target.

Of course if you are aiming and need to hit a 2" circle.... no crap you got to aim... BUT... when would someone need to do that in gun games OR home defense situations?

 

Also, It is completely ridiculous to compare an OPEN gun versus a gun used by most people... a stock Glock with a milled optic.

Open guns, the optics are generally mounted to the frame, the guns are running really effective comps and the dots they are using... are not your tiny window RMRs.... they are much bigger optic windows.  That dot effectively stays there.  There is FAR less hunting for it.

I would venture to say, if I look at some classifier top scores for both Open and production or limited... where targets are at 7 yards or so... the scores are going to be virtually identical.

and as I said MULTIPLE TIMES...

1. slide mounted optics are helpful when your vision is deteriorating...

2. You are shooting longer distances.....  so no crap... in most major matches where the average target is 15 yards plus and a good amount of targets are 25 yards plus.... or say Florida Open where targets are 35 yards+.... OF COURSE I want a dot. 

Most gun owners ARE NOT shooting longer distances... 

 

For rifles... of course a scope or a dot is going to be more helpful.... we are talking about a completely different firearm that at no point can be made to be felt as an extension of your body.

My daughter's bday party starting but will pull the classifiers later today.

3 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Maks, your putting out dubious info based on a frame of reference that isn’t universal.

Pistol RDS are not a crutch and are nothing like a laser in their use.

Would you agree a RDS is an advantage over iron sights on a long gun? It’s the same advantage on a pistol.

Just like on a long gun - the benefit of the RDS on a pistol is it gives you a single aiming plane and lets you remain target focused. You have 1 plane to focus on with a RDS - dot on target vs 3 distinct planes to line up - rear sight, front sight, target - with irons.

Like iron sights, you do need to practice. With practice there is no wasted time searching for the dot.

Look at shooters like JJ Racaza’s and other big comp shooters times and compare their iron sights times to their RDS gun times and see what shakes. Look at instructors like Scott Jedlinski of Moders Samurai or Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics and see what they are capable of with a RDS pistol and tell me it’s a “crutch”. I’ve taken classes with Scott - it isn’t a crutch. The RDS is absolutely a force multiplier for him regardless of the distance.

You've been to steel matches. You know the stage with 5 big plates up close. How many people still miss? In my experience a lot miss - Because they either go too fast, have bad trigger control, don’t use their sights, or some combo of the above.

When they miss, I sometimes ask if they knew they missed. The ones that use sights can call their misses - That means it was a trigger or speed issue. The ones that have no idea where there misses went, didn’t use their sights and therefore can’t correct on the next target or next run.

Yes the SIRT is a great tool - if you use it correctly. It’s designed to use the sights and the laser checks your work. If you are target focused and looking only for the downrange laser “hit” are training bad habits.

Personally, I always use my sights - even at close distance. It’s the only way to check your work. And since a fast miss does jack and shit, I’d rather take a few 100ths of a second and make sure I’m lined up.

Run a Guerrilla Approach Consistency Drill:

https://guerrillaapproach.com/product/consistency-target-free/

Directions are in the top right corner. You shoot it at 3 yards - nice and close. 

Try to run it clean with sights at speed.

Then try it without sights using “point shooting”.

If you have an RDS pistol, try it with that.

Compare and contrast - not just times, but accuracy and your ability to make corrections when you miss. 

Notice how you can correct your shots when using sights - because you have a reference. When looking over your sights, you can’t correctly adjust to fix your previous miss and get a hit on the next dot. With practice the RDS makes it even easier to make these corrections.

Here is a "practical" one... and have not pulled scores for it yet.. but a classifier...  Targets at 10 to 14 feet.

https://uspsa.org/viewer//06-03.pdf

Tell me how much more effective an RDS is going to be somewhere here?

 

And YES.... I agree... when people miss, it is generally due to rushing, poor trigger control, etc.  An RDS is not going to solve any of them.  You can still make those mistakes.

 

So... Are most gun owners going to need to shoot a 2" circle at 3 yards?  Or are they more likely going to need an IPSC sized target at 10 to 14 feet?

18 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

Optics on pistols is not something I plan on doing, ever.   Unless I find money.

You can get into the pistol RDS game for under $800. It's not really that expensive now.

Ok... so just looked it up...

That classifier... CM 06-03... Hit Factor of 15 gets you...

Production - 100% 

Limited = No Optic - 90.1501%

Open - 90.1501% 

Single Stack = 100%

So essentially, an optic race gun would get the same result as a limited gun with no optic.

Production and Single stack, i.e. no race holsters, less gun mods... would be top results.

I am sure if we look up classifiers where targets are much further away, there would be a difference.