GRIZ

I learned how to use them in the 70s and carried them when I was on the police department. I consider them more effective, versatile, and compact than a nightstick. Few knew what they were so nothing was said. There was another guy I worked with who carried them and knew how to use them, Glenn. Glenn wound up in a situation where he had to take on 4 or 5 gorillas. Now Glenn, although he didn't look it, was equal to about 2 gorillas. He probably could have justifiably shot at least one of them but he used his nunchuks. All were subdued, charged with assault on a police officer, no one was permanently hurt, and Glenn was unhurt. Afterstory? When the chief found out about this and how effective nunchuks were without having to shoot any one he issued an order banning any officer carrying them. He had no business being a chief of police because he hated cops.

I'm not saying I support any magazine limit. Just explaining their rationale for picking 17. Glock is most prevalent among LE. There are Beretta 92 and others.

What about all those years before Nappen was giving his advice? I'm talking back to 1990 not just the past few months. A cop needs reason to stop you first of all. Leaving a range is not probable cause to search your car for >10 Rd magazines. Or anything else for that matter. How many cops do you think NJSP, Prosecutors Office, and local departments do you think they have to assign to "magazine enforcement"? I'm sure Drunk Driving Checkpoints and other operational considerations have a much higher priority. Zero chance? There is never a zero chance for anything. The world is not absolutes. Close to zero chance of getting stopped leaving a range with >10 Rd magazines unless you do something very stupid. Give it time. We'll see who's correct.

Exactly how many people do you know that have been busted for >15 Rd magazines, assault weapons, etc by cops waiting outside any range?

That's to cover the Glock 17. There are more than a few cops that only own the gun they're issued now. Don't agree with any of these laws but that's the rationale for 17.

Thanx. But that makes 1 right granted on the basis of sex. Greenday said, "protect people based on race and sex". I was waiting for him to tell us the Equal Rights Amendment had been passed.

Okay I basically agree with what youre saying but I'll go a little farther. I wouldn't say most cops will act. I'd say nearly all cops will act. While we're very focused on self defense here, justifiably so, there are plenty of situations where cops risk their lives that are not gunfighting. Burning buildings, drowning kids, and many other situations occur where cops risk their lives. How many times have you seen a burning building and everyone stands out on the sidewalk watching people hanging out windows yelling for help? Usually the cops are the first on the scene and they do what they have to do. Firefighters and EMS people risk their lives all the time to help people without gunfighting. So do many private citizens. We can always cherry pick and bring up some isolated incident to make a point. That doesn't make it the norm.

But you can't get "just about any gun" you want in the UK, Canada, or Australia. Your selection is much more limited. The process is "easy and simple" in NJ compared to Canada, the UK, and Australia. You're not stupid. Can't you see that? Your assertation that @TheWind''s relatives are sketchy is totally baseless. Why do you feel you need to try to demean someone? I thought you were one of the love everyone crowd.

Yeah but...that gives him 2 months to find another water source.

The Kavanaugh show is not just SOP for a judge. They tried it and it failed. Fortunately there are men like Kavanaugh who are willing to fight for what's right. They no doubt discuss the potential of the bs they may have to endure with their families. Their families are willing to back them. There are some who want to give up fighting for what's right on both sides. You can say things like won't and never and claim the sky is falling like Chicken Little. Then you've prepared yourself to throw in the towel and ready for the Socialist People's Republic of the United States of America. Many on this forum repeatedly comment all lawsuits should be filed and the enemy immediately attacked. It is obvious they fail to recognize an important factor in winning. That is strategy. They have no concept of thinking on the long term strategic level. They want to use the shotgun approach which is generally a waste of assets. Thank God they didn't run WW2 or we'd be speaking German and Japanese now. If you want to win on the battlefield or on politics strategy is important. The difference is on the battlefield you defeat the enemy and it's over. Politics is a continual fight and influences all 3 branches of government. Congress and the Senate can change every 2 years. The POTUS every 4. SCOTUS is the most stable as they appointed for life. Whether you agree with the makeup of the court is not material to your argument. It is what it is. The lucrative retirement SCOTUS is offered is there to encourage turnover. Fight smart. Don't fight stupid. Pick the time and the place for your fight.

Becoming any kind judge means you realize you'll get exposure and criticism for your decisions. They kind of know that when they take the job.

If they made you turn them in the 5A would require the state to compensate you. If they did that, the state would have millions of "dangerous" over 10 Rd magazines they couldn't resell as that would be counter to their argument that they are "dangerous". NJ can use that money for more important purposes as paying lawyers to represent illegal aliens. NJ just says you can't own them in NJ. Replacing them with 10rd magazines? Modifying them for you? Once again it would cost them money. That's asking the state to take care of all your needs. Very socialist. I don't want the state involved in supplying my magazines as I don't want them involved with my guns. If you left it up to Trenton they would provide you with a 1 Rd magazine in a bolt action, no evil feature AR that has 5 safeties you have to disengage before you could shoot it. It would also include a timing mechanism so you could only shoot 1 Rd every 20 minutes. They'd still claim they are complying with the 2A.

Good thinking. Canned water is a good idea but you can also get things that aren't as boring. I purchased several cases of canned Arizona Iced Tea on sale for a stupidly low price with an expiration date 2 1/2 years from the purchase date. Almost done with it and it's still got a year to the expiration date.

@Greenday you apparently know nothing about the gun laws of those countries. Canada- no handguns with barrel less than 4.1", no handgun designed to shoot .25 or .32 ammo, no semi AK or FN FAL, no rifle with barrel less than 18". Everything is licensed and registered. UK- no handguns, no semi rifles. The UK Olympic shooting team has to leave the country to practice with handguns. At one time their handguns were stored in Switzerland. Don't know if they are still there. Australia- handguns only after 6 month club membership and must shoot a minimum number of matches to keep handgun. Sounds like more than one outright ban there. These are just a few of laws of those countries you claim don't have "strict gun control laws". Yes, their laws make NJ look like AZ compared to the countries you listed. Yes, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. But you can make a speech or write an article advocating anything you want short of a violent overthrow of the government. I guess you forget all the ilk that has called for the death of Trump. Kathy Griffin displayed a severed Trump head. By your standard she should be in prison. She's not. Maybe we should have vetting for so called "comedians" so they don't offend anyone. I explained I'm not objecting to limiting gun ownership to some classes of people. The situation in many states is way too much though. What about the rest of the Bill of Rights? Shouldn't those involved in voting, self incrimination, cruel and unusual punishment be vetted to see if they "deserve it" as you say should be done for gun owners? There are amendments to the COTUS dealing with race. Please enlighten me on which amendment deals with sex. That is one I missed. America is about taking responsibility for your actions, good or bad. It's not about states protecting us from everything. It's about protecting the people from abuses by the state. That's what the Amendments to the COTUS are about. The 4A doesn't protect you from an illegal search by me. It protects you by one from the state. Get your facts straight.

I've been through that era. Problem was the people screaming for the 18 year old vote in the 60's and 70's were mostly people trying to figure out how to dodge the draft.

I think the Rough Rider can be hit or miss. The one I've shot was okay but not as accurate as a Ruger, S&W, or Taurus. People seem to either swear by or swear at the Rough Rider. Less expensive alternatives? The Taurus 22 revolvers I've shot worked well. The triggers were not as good as a S&W or Ruger but not something you couldn't work with. The Charter Pathfinder is okay but I would rate it a bit lower than the Taurus.

@Greenday read my post. You didn't prove anything. I said, "strict gun control including an outright ban" You seem to be the only one who didn't understand that. Would you have felt better if I said "or" instead of "including". I'm glad your knowledge of chemistry is better than your reading comprehension. Being you brought it up earlier, do you think you should prove yourself responsible to exercise free speech? You should tested before you practice a religion so you can do so responsibly? What about fully testing 18 year old voters to make sure they vote responsibly? Don't get me wrong. I might take some heat on this but I'm not for many felons, drug addicts, children, and other categories of people access to guns. Why do you see the 2A as different from the rest of the Bill of Rights?

@Greenday as bad as the situation is here, NJ looks like Arizona compared to those countries you listed. Try again. There is no socialist country that doesn't have severe restrictions on gun ownership if not an outright ban. You need to educate yourself before you throw out a bs response.

When I started on the PD in the 70s we only qualified with our duty gun. That's because the chief was cheap. When I went to the Federal government you had to qualify with every gun you carried. Handgun or long gun. For a short time I could only carry an issued gun which meant a G17,19, or 26 or a J frame. The NJ AG won't agree with LEOSA and remain 's fairly silent on it as he knows he'd lose. I've said this before but I'll repeat it here. LEOSA starts out with "Notwithstanding". That means in spite of any state or local law. The only reference to state and local laws in LEOSA is they can limit or forbid carry on state or local property. LEOSA allows you to carry hollowpoints. LEOSA covers a lot more former LEOs than the NJ RPO permit covers. 10 years as an MP in the Army you're covered under LEOSA. NJ won't give you a RPO permit though. IANAL but it would seem to me that starting out with notwithstanding in regard to state and local laws notwithstanding would cover magazines too. I only know of 3 cases where people carrying under LEOSA were arrested. One in SD and 2 in NY. The SD case involved out of state LEOs who shot a guy in a bar. They didn't have any problem with the shooting. They had a problem with them carrying in a bar. It was thrown out because the state didn't own the bar. Two cases in NY involved a PA Constable and a Coast Guardsman. The question was if they were qualified LEOs under LEOSA. Turned out they were. I have never heard of anyone carrying under LEOSA in NJ having any kind of problem. If there's any out, someone let me know.

@70gto, the answer to that is just to qualify with all your 15rd or less capable handguns everytime you qualify. That's the only way I can see to keep them all legal. If anyone has a better answer please share. That's true. However LEOSA says you can carry any handgun of "the same type of action". Under LEOSA if you qualify with a semiautomatic and a revolver you're covered. State law can be more restrictive but not contrary to Federal law.

@Greenday name me one socialist state that doesn't have strict gun control including outright bans on private gun ownership. If you read the article it says how Venezuelans embraced socialism as a cure to all their problems. That just made the problems worse.

Here is good example of how prohibiting the private ownership of guns has contributed to the problems in Venezuela. Venezuelans drank the Kool Aid and felt they didn't need to protect themselves from their socialist government. Now they are paying for it. https://www.foxnews.com/world/venezuelans-regret-gun-prohibition-we-could-have-defended-ourselves Got that @Greenday? The problems in Venezuela were not caused by the US. They were caused by the people embracing socialism.

@Scorpio64 not man card. Just you do what you have to do.

Don't get me wrong. If I have to shoot in the cold I would. Something I learned from professionals a long time ago. Where do mercenaries fight? Central America, Africa, the Middle East? If the pros only fight where it's warm they must know what they're doing. I don't consider it manly things. Just what I got caught with at the time and had to do.

Okay, how many Glock 19s have been sold in NJ in the past 10-20 years? 1000? 5000? 20000? If NJSP were to request how many shipped with 15 Rd magazines Glock could tell NJ to pound salt. The only people Glock has to answer to is ATF. Now NJSP can request that info from ATF. IF ATF got that information and passed this to NJSP the real question is how many of these gun's WERE DELIVERED with 15 Rd magazines. I guarantee no FFL in NJ could accurately answer that question. Even if NJ FFLs could answer that question there would have to be reason to believe the recipient of these guns didn't comply as you did. Even of all this info were available NONE OF IT IS PROBABLE CAUSE. That's what you need for a search warrant. Not mere or reasonable suspicion. How many people do you think NJSP or ATF have to devote to this effort? Possible? Yes. Probable. Never.