Shane45

Looks like a Vortex Razor 1-6 in a Nightforce Unimount.

In the land of single shot 50's the State Arms is hard to beat. A guy I know won several championship level matches with his. In the case of the bohica, I do believe there was more to it than just bad reloads. No rifle is going to pull a ban from FCSA matches due to an individual error but this was a while ago so please verify facts instead of taking my word. If you dont mind blasting away with a single shot, thats cool. But damn it would be nice to have a mag .

Hmmmm spend 60 bucks a year to join the range in mifflin pa, about 3 hr drive AND they will let you use the bunkhouse if not in use or spend xxxxxx to fly to AZ and deal with transporting all the toys on an airplane, rent a car and hotel room to find out a bunch of squatters are on yer property your never at so you cant shoot hmmmmmmmmmmmm

SpeedKills, should I add panzermk2 to your internet alias list? I would have much prefered if you just divulged who you are, then the sales pitch would make a lot more sense and it would actually be much easier to digest your sermon! Send me some samples and I will objectively test them.

Usually they do. Your starting to act like a jerkoff because your ugly baby is under attack. Do you have ANY articles within say the past 5 years? Because your an internet commando, you are making the assumption everyone else is. That would be a mistake on your part. SpeedKills/Penatrator, clearly you are a crusader for the platform. It is entertaining to me that the same accusations about rhetoric vs discusion are made elsewhere. This makes it clear there is no point in discussing it with you further because its not a discussion, its a sales pitch! http://forums.officer.com/t174587-3/

SK, the info that does make it back to the public, likely was never intended to, especially in the case of mil ops. So just because it didnt make it back to the internet doesnt mean it doesnt exist in closed circles. Those closed circles know what they know and make their decisions accordingly. I do not think the Ft Hood case is an indication of anything. I think you will find most active shooter situations create a slanted statistic. But if Im tracking correctly, he shot 45 people of which 13 died. If you contrast that with Virgina tech where 49 people were shot, 32 people died. Can I conclude the 9mm is more effective? No. I am sure there are a million factors to both cases that make deriving any info from them an unworthy pursuit. And frankly I do not care to talk about victims this way so I wont be speaking further in this vien of the conversation. I believe my point is made.

SK, the item you are going to have a hard time dancing around is that the data for actual 5.7 shooting is comparitively small. The reason it stays small is the lack of adoption and deployment because of said poor results of initial egagements. Something the terminal performance communty learned a long time ago, and one you should pay attention to, is it dont matter what all the eggspurts predict. What matters is how it actually works. You only find out how it actually works by investigating actual shootings. Please dont give me the handfull of positive incidents because the few cases of good performance do not give a relevent statistical datum. So field reports of poor performance + insufficient data = better proven choices to select. IF tomorrow EA or FN came out with a round that matched the ballistics of say mk318 ammo and proved its self in the field, Id be all in but until then, I will stick with my 1911 in .45 with gold dot based ammo. Im sure me and my measly 8 rounds can get the job done.

As is now becoming a pattern you fail to take in pertinent points. I was involved in the sale of class 3 weapons to LE. So its not info from a(singular) buddy, as you try so hard to imply. Its feedback from the community. Put it this way. My personal ps90 came right from the hands of the director of le sales at fn. All my other contacts and biz associates are still actively engaged with fn so they are not up for discussion. So you can stick with touting the internet hearsay that supports your religion and continue to spout blashpemy at all the detractors. I will continue to listen to those with first hand experience. Stargate is on channel 29 @ 9pm. Enjoy yourself.

For such a small weapon, its suprisingly heavy aint it!

SK, I think I am going to have to agree with Vlad that your in a state of blind ferver. Your not hearing or understanding my points and comments. I am listening to your points, giving them consideration, and presenting counterpoints for you to consider. You keep throwing rhetoric back at me instead of discussion. I dont need to look at vids of others shooting a P90 or PS90. I have ample trigger time on both. But the point you are really missing is that you are relying on internet reporting for all you bullet points but want to dismiss all other detracting internet bullet points. You cant have it both ways. My information is directly from the scource of those who deployed with the system. Im not talking about I read it somewhere. Im talking about first hand discussions. Their reports where not favorable. You can link all day but I can tell you first hand I know several teams we sold them to and the units just sit because they could not be returned. Operationally, its a dud. If there was no Call of Duty or Stargate series, it would be a commercial failure as well I suspect. A pattern has emerged in your postings. No matter how credible the resume' of a detractor is, suddenly, by your account, they are a schill. Im sorry so many people are telling you your baby is ugly but the simple fact is that warty, cross eyed little bastard is one ugly baby lol!

Agreed, about pistols as the original topic BUT if you believe the round is having issue out of a rifle, it makes the outlook from a pistol more of a concern. Lets talk about sales for a second. What did FN do right? They put the PS90 on TV and in Video games. It is well understood this did GREAT things for sales at FN. And on the pistol side, anything that gets the ban hype WILL drive sales. Even when there was a brief talk about glocks being banned they jumped. Look at the unprecidented jump in AR sales due to ban talk. But those sales and what drives them have nothing to do with the capability of the weapon or cartridge. Here is my bottom line. I was an original member of the long gone Ammolab. In my opinion, things at extremes simply dont do as well. Yes there are 5.7 rounds that can approach 700 ftlbs of energy (IN THE 16" PS90). But they are so devoid of mass I truly doubt their effectiveness. Do you know of ANY AAR's or stories on, say EA S4M? From what I remember of my observations, extremely light bullets have very unpredictable behaviour and effectiveness. Not what I want. If I were a proponent of above avg capacity pistols, if there was say, an HK P30 9mm with a known good gold dot based ammo in it and a 5.7 on the table, Im taking the HK with the proven performer in actual shootings. And just for clarity, Im not talking about the price of a PS90 for a PD, Im talking about a P90 with lots of options that are not available on civilian models (other than the happy switch ). And last but not least a link with info that mirrors exactly the kind of info that was relayed back to me from those that have deployed with 5.7 based systems.... http://www.militaryarmschannel.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=671

I did in fact notice that about the 911 call. His mental state is clearly his biggest asset enabling him to prevail. On the topic of price, I can tell you that what we charged a PD for a P90 would make you blush. Bulk ammo was also quite reasonable in that timeframe. Yes, indeed the P90 runs like a sewing machine. I could easily keep a full mag dump on target. But I have said time and again that, in my opinion, that scope is a very narrow one. I also believe that there are better solutions at this point. 300Blk being one of them. The p90 has had over 20 years to make its in roads. In my opinion, it just hasent done it and not because of the function of the weapon. Again, those that bought vs actually making it off the rack are two different things. As to employing an M4/SBR etc etc I would abdicate to High Exposures first hand experiences on that topic.

Thomase's first encounter was 3 rounds. His second was 18 devided by 3 revolvers. His 3rd was 8. and as best I can tell his 4th is 11. We can switch from the term protracted as I dont think any of his gunfights are and look at the round count instead. The only one I would say qualifies is #2. And I submit that if he was carrying a pistol instead of stashing them all over, the round count would likely have been less. Regardless, I personally would rather reload than dive for other pistols but that is another debate entirely. I don think his case is a case for capacity, I think its a case for wearing your weapon. Think about this for a second. The groups deploying P90's are not rank and file. They are people that spend a great deal more time training. Meaning their shot placement, the thing that trumps all else, is far above average. Yet this same group largely has abandoned the platform. If it was effective a assure you it would be WIDELY adopted. The rifle is compact, reliable, inexpensive, fully ambi and has a 50 round mag! Whats not to love? 5.7, thats what. They sit in the armory next to the MP5's. Yes they sit too. Why? I can tell you they have more confidence in the MP5's but the HK's are just to expensive to keep running and replacement parts are nonexistant. This is why the M4 and variants get all the love. You have drawn your conclusion. You believe in the cartridge. Good for you. But your comments, especially directed at High Exposure, are irritating because you make some assumptions about his background that make your comments plain ignorant. Comments based on assumption rarely turn out well. You also make it clear that you are emotionally invested in a caliber/platform. This is a mistake. We are invested in what works/keeps you alive. I will dump whatever I am using on the spot if there is a PROVEN better performer to be had. I have no emotional investment in inanimate objects.

The Steiner MSR 5X25 is an excellent scope and that price is very good.

Im not inclined to detail read all the reposted reposts of necroposts from the 5.7 forum. But a few items caught my eye. Just because a dept/agency has them in inventory does NOT mean they actually use them. There are a few pics floating around the web of me with fully tricked out P90's with intigrated lasers etc etc that where provided to departments. They played with them, put them in the armory/tried to return them/ etc etc but they dont go out on deployment. The functionality of the system is not the issue. Confidence in the round is. This confidence is shaken due to dept backchannel accounts and concerns on the 5.7. By your logic speed, because anecdotal successes can likely be found on a .22 short, it is thus effective. That is simply a silly perspective. The other item that caught me eye was your capacity comment. Please provide me any links or stories you may have where a civilian was in a protracted gunfight where capacity became a significant factor. I ask for this from any pistol capacity proponents but.....I never seem to get any links or credible stories

Im not terribly interested in what it does to porky pig or a frozen milk jug. Im interested in the experiences of those that have operationally deployed with the system. Almost all I have talked to have rejected the system.....effectiveness in the AAR being the number 1 complaint. If you want to bet your life on it, be my guest, I wont be joining you. On the civy side of the fence, in the rifle world, why would I logically choose a 5.7/PS90 when a full 16" barrel 5.56 in the same size package is available? In a pistol, the capacity doesnt really hold any attraction for me. I have yet to see a compelling case of a protracted gunfight in the context of a civilian...so I will stick with my 45. There is no escaping that the effectiveness of the 5.7 is strongly in question. There isnt anything in that system that makes it worth the risk to go that route if effectiveness is the key criteria, in my opinion.

It would seem that Armalite has been aquired by Surgeon Rifles. Being a fan of Surgeon, I think this may be a great thing for Armalite!

Both unless you live in a state that allows sbr's on a fed tax stamp etc etc.

In regards to who in the USSS actually carries one, I believe it is the uniformed division manning guard posts.

I think the effectiveness or lack thereof is well documented enough for anyone to find that may doubt the claim. With that being said, i suspect that people like high exposure, myself and others on this forum base our criteria on different requirements than others. Although at this time i dont do it, i readily recognise not all people require utilitarian usefulness or difined roles for their firearms. Many people buy things for many other reasons including its simply cool or fun.

That solution just looks hokey to me. Just go with a TA11 and be done with it. If you want greater than combat accuracy, go with a variable scope.

Its been a while but I believe the general consensus was the third marking on the reciever set a perception that was hard to undo with facts. This is always my concern in NJ. When it comes to firearms, it seems the facts have little to do with anything here. Think about it this way, you get pulled over for whatever. Officer asks the common question, any weapons in the car? He takes a look and see's the third marking. What is the likelyhood you are going to continue on your merry way without further delay or complication? We know its cosmetic, but I'm betting its getting siezed right there to prove its cosmetic. Consider that this state seems terribly preoccupied with the cosmetics of an AR doesnt it?

For further consideration on why I hold the position I do take a look at the Olofson case. http://www.firearmscoalition.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=192&Itemid=37

In my humble opinion, some FFL's quote law for not doing the transfer when in reality they just dont want to. I wish they would just say they dont want to as it would cut down on the confusion. In the case of this specific lower, even if its not illegal per se, I would not want a lower with a FA position. I know its a long shot but consider if you had a rifle malf and go full auto and the po po got called, imagine your trying to explain to the prosecuter that gets called that the label for full auto on your rifle that went full auto is fake. Subsequently imagine your lawyer trying to explain the technical attributes and mechanics to a potentially gun unfriendly, white haired grandma and grampa jury. To me this is simply in the catagory of why give them extra ammo against you as we live behind enemy lines.

My P90 experience is quite dated but I will say the thing ran like a sewing machine! Thus I could see the application p o t e n t i a l l y in a very narrow corridor of application. Fast forward to now, there are probably better options. I would love to get hands on the HB . Roughly the same footprint as the HK's without all the cost and parts availability issues.