JackDaWack

I didnt hear what ever came of that... I believe word on the street is some CT cops and an ATF agent got together and went rouge... To clarify, you can turn a pistol into a firearm, but the ATF in this case was measuring with the folding stock closed(folded). I would steer very clear from folding type braces. but here is another story. https://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/108864-atf-prosecution-for-pistol-as-sbr/page/2/

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/ATF-approval-letter-31OCT17.pdf pg 5-6 They refer to modifying the existing length of pull to that of an average rifle could constitute a redesign of the product.

What's done is done. Buy one now and enjoy it... Good part at least everything can be converted into a rifle if it goes south.

This thread is for documenting the ATF and NJSP letters of interpretation, and citing Federal and State laws. Please keep thread chatter to a minimum and only post references to letters or laws. I will try and keep this thread updated and feel free to post any relevant updates not listed here. Please read the letters in full if you are interested in this. Disclaimer: I AM NOT A LAWYER Below are the required documents and legislative citations in order to assemble or purchase a legal NON-NFA Firearm. This is a collection of results based on Reading state and federal law, and ATF + NJSP documents regarding the classification of Items and parts regulated in their assembly. Please be advised this may not be a complete list of relevant information. New letters can change the status of any lawful interpretation. Firearms are not currently(June 2019) regulated under NJ's AWB. ATF Letter on Stabilizing Braces and how they can be shouldered This article about adding VFGs to AR pistols contains the ATF letter outlining how to construct a non-NFA firearm on pages 2-3 This contains the NJSP letter to the FFLs detailing the legality of the 590 Shockwave and Tac 14. the relevant text is : "Firearms with similar design and structure must fall within this definition of a firearm and must not have been manufactured as a 'shotgun' (NJSA 2C:39-1n) or meet the Federal requirement of 'any other weapon (AOW)' which measures less then 26 inches in overall length. The firearm must also comply with all BATF requirements." Also the NJSP definition of "substatially identical" The relevant text: The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm. We also have the States definitions of: "Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. "Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. NJSP Letter: LINK HERE. From the NJSP: "The New Jersey State Police Firearms Unit finds that the submitted Troy Industries A4 "other firearm" as well as the Dark Storm Industries DS-15 Non-NFA Firearm Typhoon are legal for sale in the State of New Jersey and are NOT considered to be an "assault firearm." This opinion is based upon the two firearms reviewed, however if the design or dimensions change from those samples, it may change the classification of the firearm. ". If you would like to purchase one please contact ModerMaterial https://modernmateriel.com/ Dark Storm Industries https://www.dark-storm.com/ Or Troy https://worldoftroy.com/shop-now/ NO STATE LAWS have been cited or found that require the firearm be purchased complete in the state of NJ. The ATF has opinionated you may assemble one in the VFG letters on Page 2. If your intentions are to build one from a receiver please read the following: The ATF advises all manufactures and FFLS to record the “TYPE” of firearm as accurately possible when completing their required records. To satisfy the ATF, your build receiver cannot ever been classified as a long gun rifle or shotgun by any of these entities prior. To clarify, the ATF is very specific as to how receivers are recorded… and that they are never classified as rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Check with your FFL that they are following this guideline when you pick up the receiver. This should satisfy the requirement for the build in completing a firearm from a receiver, and not a long gun. UPDATE 6/4/19 NJSP have opinion that you MAY NOT build a "firearm" in NJ as a precautionary measure to prevent you from violating laws in regard to assembling assault weapons, or NJ's constructive possession law. As it stands this is merely a precautionary statement to help people avoid violating laws in the assembly of a "firearm". Which suggests if you are able to avoid breaking the laws mentioned in the notice, it is legal to do so. Please keep your firearms assembled at all times if you run the risk of violating NJ's AWB. Make sure you do not have any parts that can be used to readily assemble or modify an existing rifle into an Assault weapon according to NJ Constructive Possession Law. Based on the above information the requirements for owning or assembling a Non-NFA Firearm in NJ: State: more restricting Since pistols are limited in weight, you cannot build one in this configuration. -Your build must contain a VFG, per the NJSP and ATF This will give you “Firearm” Status in NJ Federal: Cannot have stock (Not a rifle), Use a brace either listed in the ATF letters, or one that is substantially identical Your VFG must be vertical, use one that is either listed in the ATF/NJSP document or is substantially identical(Not a pistol)… angled grips don’t count. You must have OAL >26”, since you added a VFG (Not an AOW) (this is a federal NFA requirement)(No NJ Mandate.) Update: 6/5/19 OAL is Measured with a folding brace in the collapsed position, or if the brace is fixed it will be removed and if present the extension(buffer tube) is measured.(Document below) https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/atf-folded-brace_redacted.pdf Failure to meet specific requirements above will make you a criminal. This is not an endorsement for the purchase or assembly of Non-NFA Firearms. The Remainder of this thread is for further citations of the law or ATF NJSP letters that would enhance our understanding of purchasing and assembling these types of firearms. This may not be a complete list of requirements and new updated information could create addition restrictions. Please check and follow ALL Local State and Federal laws prior to any action.

NO. Calling something "a pistol" with a VFG is not exactly steering this conversation in the right directing. If we considered it to be a pistol, it would be 100% illegal in NJ.. it is not. In fact, the VFG is the entire reason it's legal in NJ.... So we have to play the 26" game now to avoid making AOW's at the federal level.

At the federal level, there is no such thing as a pistol with a vertical grip... IF YOU PUT A VERTICAL GRIP ON A PISTOL IT BECOMES AOW IF ITS UNDER 26" OAL. Thats completely incorrect, and the ATF has clarified this.... A pistol with a vertical grip is NOT A PISTOL, it's AOW if its under 26", and becomes classified as firearm if its over 26" So i'm like done with all of this now.. Its been explained 3x over by now.

Length of pull seems to be another thing the ATF is using to classify these braces as "pistol". I believe(but could be wrong) the pistol braces have a shorter length of pull as a rifle stock... that is when measured fully opened per the ATF.

Jesus we are not doing this again. Nj requirement: It cannot be a pistol, you wont meet the weight requirement Must fall under the definition of Firearm. Federal requirement (NFA): It must start life as anything other than a long gun rifle/shotgun. It needs a pistol brace(get one with ATF approval) It must have a FVG, so its not a pistol.(MUST BE VERTICAL, the Magpul angled grips DO NOT COUNT) It must have OAL >26" so not to be AOW.

Im not so sure they "spearheaded" anything... Are they the first to offer a firearm for sale? yes. but the ATF letters have been around for a while now.... They are capitalizing on the situation( i got no problem with that), However it would be important to recognize that literally everything THIS VERY thread pointed out over a year ago was simply confirmed by NJSP... was their "permission" really needed... NO IMO. While people were scared of laws that didn't exist... plenty of people built their own after the information was made public. In fact, this was so black and white that the NJSP simply cited the law word for word. Now its the bickering over if you can build one.... look i didnt need permission to build my rifles from the state police.. so i didn't look for their permission to build a firearm.. the only place i look is the law. What they have done is given the average person confidence they can own one of these... and maybe to a fault. Personally, people are scared of their own shadows around here.... and now that the cat is out of the bag... i wont be too happy in a few years when the state shuts all of this down.

We "cracked" the code over a year ago... Or some rando on Reddit did.. you cannot possibly give them credit for this. People just don't want to believe it. Do I think these firearms are over priced? No. But theyre not what I would build or buy. Do I think its wrong of them to tell people they have to buy from them for it to be legal*? Yes. I think you're leaving out that huge point here... THESE companies have just created all of that nonsense... Not us. People are still reluctant to believe the truth.. and when given the facts resort to being afraid of what NJ will do to them. I don't own a single firearm that is legal because of some letter from the NJSP giving me permission.. they are all legal because they fall within the legal limits of the law.

Modern Material posted it a page back

Which one?

Im not disagreeing with you... but... What the ATF says doesn't necessarily apply to NJ, as NJ could be more regulated.

@nondisclosure Thats from the ATF not the NJSP.....

Can you qoute the text? And remember this is a response directly to a manufacturer/s. I tried looking but didn't find what you are referring to. Therw are 2 documents in the links.

He was convinced of that, along with illegal magazines and hollow points. The handgun transport convictions were over turned.. while the rest were not. The jury was instructed to ignore parts of the law by a judge.. it was a fiasco... But if we're going to use this example as a reason to be cautious.. then don't bring your guns out of your house.

So then why even attempt a non nfa firearm if youre concerned? I for one will not be afraid of laws that do not exist, or people enforcing laws they have no jurisdiction over. Well, Brian Aitken didn't do himself any favors when he a)openly broke the law and b) found himself trying to argue exemptions to hand gun transportation laws. (Which those convictions were over turned) But again, if this is your fear..then why bother? Do you transport handguns in your car? NJSP don't have a 26" standard to uphold.. so if you are over or under they could still do what ever you think they would do.

What are you worried about them charging you with?

only 38 percent of those registered to vote even showed up to the polls And people hated christie because he wasn't progressive enough for NJ.

This is a civil suit... Not a criminal prosecution.. does entrapment even count? If it's a civil suit... The other issue is they argue NFA knew NJ residents can't own what they sold... But the counter argument is the NJSP knew they couldn't own what they were buying either. Another counter argument is the NFA has on their website listed the person buying the magazines is responsible for know if they are legal to own in their state. A basic disclaimer should be enough to subvert any consumer fraud claims.

I'm trying to clear this up, but it doesn't matter how NJ measures it. 26" is a federal issue to by pass the NFA. NJ doesn't have any laws in regards to it being over 26"s Worry about what the ATF would do.

He reposted a 16" blackout barrel upper.

You need to pin and weld a muzzle break on it, but other wise yes. Yeah, im not about to start advising people to build non-NFA firearms, if they can figure out the law and find the posted documents on here and read through our threads then they can make their own decision about it.

You need to have a 16" barrel if you're making a rifle.. thats NJ and federal law.

You want to complete this 10.5" upper with a fixed stock lower?