acaixguard

10 rounds at 10 yards on a 3.5" bull, medium rate of fire with my PPQ 9mm.

BTW, forgot to ask earlier, but any of you guys take this class using NJ compliant 15 round mag AR mags? If so, was there any issues with keeping up with the class drills, having to reload more often?

Great write up, and I'm glad everyone enjoyed the class. Sounds pretty spot on to my experience with Joe's class. All my training thus far has been focused on pistols, so Joe will be my first stop when I start actual carbine training (hopefully soon). I was going to take his class last year, but Ken Hackathorn was teaching up in New England, which may very well have been his last class around this area. Being the nice guy Joe is, he actually encouraged me to take the class with Ken instead, as I may never get the chance to train with him again. As far as the level of shooting needed for Joe's basic classes, I would say you should be familiar with how to use your weapon. Have the firearms safety habits ingrained, know how to load your weapon and how it operates, and be able to keep most of your shots on target at 7-10 yards. Joe will go over fundamental drills that will help dial in your accuracy (hint: trigger control). Also helpful if you are comfortable in drawing from a holster safely, though Joe will touch on this too in a pistol class. Here is an AAR I wrote up a few years ago when I took his VSM pistol class... http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=85523

A 1911 always works best in the 5" full size length (and in .45 ACP too)!

No experience with this facility, but Joe is pretty accommodating. Email him if you have concerns. Maybe he'll even allow you to bring a check with you on the day of the class (though this could be dependent on how he has to pay the facility). That's awesome! Joe is a great guy and I'm sure you guys will enjoy the class. Which I could make this one. I've taken his very first official VSM class years ago, and I hope to attend his carbine class one day, as all my training to this point has been on the pistol.

http://www.sightsandtrigger.com/Training.html There's an upcoming class on 9/14. Joe is one of the handful of Vickers instructors around, and he's an excellent teacher. I highly recommend him and this class.

Try giving Jim Flynn a call. Not sure what his current price is, but a couple years ago, he was selling G19s for under $500.

A Glock 19 shoots almost as well as a full size gun, and is small enough to CCW nicely. I say go for that. If you want something smaller, my vote goes towards the S&W Shield 9mm.

That video exemplifies exactly why I have the Apex extractor in my G19. After installing it, ejection is very strong to 3:00 - 4:00.

I don't carry in NJ obviously, but when I do elsewhere, I always have a spare mag with me. I think it's a big mistake to not have at least 1 spare mag. Forgetting the fact that more ammo is always better, a malfunction clearance will likely necessitate a spare mag as part of the technique. With so many good carry options today, there's no reason to never have at least 1 spare mag on you.

Most plastic guns today > SIG P938

Many reasons...here are a few... 1. Questionable reliability. Historically, they have done poorly in many LE agency tests. Many credible people in the industry, including well known instructors, have seen students' XDs take a crap during classes. Before anyone mentions it, yes, I am aware that many of you have your own XD specimens that ran fine. This is great and if you find success with it, rock on. But the fact is, individual samples that are shot from time to time at an indoor range don't really mean much. What really matters is how a larger sampling performs under more extreme conditions. To the XD's credit, it does seem like people complain about them less than a few years prior. However, the stigma still exists, and it will take many more years of rock solid performance across the board before people get past this. 2. The damn grip safety. Poorly designed, especially given the fact that you must have it depressed to even rack the slide. This could be disastrous in a one handed manipulation scenario. Plus, it's just plain stupid. Give me one reason why I need a safety blocking me from racking the slide? An even dumber concept than a mag release safety. This is more subjective, but some people also find the narrow grip safety uncomfortable, in contrast with a 1911's grip safety which is wide and contoured to the back of the grip. 3. Unremarkable trigger. Nothing to write home about here. Many other striker fired guns offer a better trigger. Not saying it's horrible, but this is just another attribute where the XD does NOT shine ahead of anything else out there. 4. High bore axis. This can be managed with proper technique of course, but the XD's bore axis is ridiculously higher than any other striker fired gun out there. Can't understand why it's designed this way, and on a less important note, to me, it makes the entire gun look pretty goofy. 5. Magazine durability. Historically, there have been complaints about how durable the mags were. A big no no if you plan to do any amount of training with it. 6. Ergonomics. Some love it, but others hate it. To be fair, this can be said for almost any other gun out there. But I'm just throwing another reason as to why XD hate exists. 7. Poor armorer support. This may matter less to casual shooters, but for agencies and those who put many rounds downrange, parts availability matters. Again, to be fair, there are other companies with this same problem, and hence why you hear Glocks often recommended. You will not be unable to find parts for a Glock, or find an armorer who can fix most problems. 8. No real track record. Perhaps tied to the first point above. How many major LE agencies have adopted the XD? Are there any known units within the military that have adopted the XD line? How many knowledgeable industry professionals recommend them and choose to shoot one themselves? 9. HS2000. Finally, a big reason many don't like the XD series, is that it's really a rebadged HS2000. An older Croatian design imported in by Springfield Armory, stamped and packaged by Springfield, and marketed heavily by them, along with the price increase. What Springfield has done was taken an older foreign pistol that was fairly inexpensive, successfully marketed the crap out of them, and sell many of them at a higher price. Can't blame them to be honest, but many people who know this see it for what it really is. I even read at some point, Springfield was giving incentives to dealers for selling the XD, and hence, you had many local stores pushing the XD on gun buyers. I've met a number of shooters that actually fell for the hype of how an XD was supposed to be better than a Glock, plus you get the free (crappy) holster that came with some of them, etc. So essentially, the XD, to me at least, represents an overhyped and overpriced pistol.

I see that you listed RTSP as your home range. Did you see if they are offering any classes you may be interested in? If not, look via the NRA website for any certified instructors near you. Also, just a suggestion, but do you own a pistol? I would recommend learning the fundamentals on a pistol. The reason is, shooting accurately by maintaining proper trigger control is more difficult on a pistol than on a long gun, generally speaking. The concepts of how to reload (via a magazine fed firearms at least) are similar, as is how to line up iron sights. If you can become proficient with a pistol, you will likely have an easier time achieving the same results with a long gun. The opposite isn't always true though.

Didn't you know an XD is even a cheaper gun than a Glock? Its hilarious that you call Glock a cheap gun and then you say you prefer an XD over it, which is probably the worst of the major polymer striker guns. Read up on the history of the HS2000 if you don't believe it. A Glock is constructed of far fewer parts than an HK. Of course it won't seem as expensive a gun. Doesn't mean one performs better than the other though. Glocks have a long reliability record (in 9mm at least) and shoots more accurately than most people can. What more do you really need? Any other qualities beyond this are subjective.

HAHAHA, funniest statement of the year so far. A Glock feels cheap, so you prefer a Springfield (XD series I presume)? Also who cares that you know a few cops that want to dump their Glocks. Most cops are actually not really gun guys. What do they want to trade their Glocks in for, XD's? Haha

Don't get me wrong...HK's are great guns, but I, and many others, don't care for their trigger. I also don't really dig the higher bore axis (though I can live with it) or the trough on the inside of the trigger guard. The point is, even an HK isn't perfect out of the box. For what it's worth, I've attended 3 different pistol classes. Each class had someone running an HK P30, and I outshot all of those people using a Glock 19. So don't think a Glock can't keep up with an HK when it comes to practical shooting.

Still pretty meaningless considering you haven't even given any reasoning as to why.

And this is based on???

Are Glock blue label prices set by Glock and the same for any blue label dealer, or can an individual dealer set their own prices on said guns?

I think many people get too wrapped up in ergonomics. A gun doesn't need to be perfectly molded to the hand. FAR more important is reliability and how good a track record it has. A G19 is not the ideal fit for my hand either, but I've spent so much time with it that it doesn't matter. That said, if you aren't comfortable with it, then it is what it is. I suggest an M&P9 next then. I can't emphasize this enough...stick to what has been proven! Guns are not something I would go off the beaten path with when selecting one.

Glock 19. Everyone's gotta have at least 1 Glock.

My quarter sleeve...

The newer M&Ps have a more positive reset. Not quite as strong as a Glock or PPQ, but much closer than before. However, the trigger break was noticeably heavier than a stock Glock.

I agree, and it's unfortunate that it'll be up to the cop's discretion. That same NJSP detective told me "I would tell you what I think, but I'm not allowed to say", and my impression was he even thinks it's a bunch of bs.

I asked the NJSP a similar question. Basically, what if, I stop at a friend's house to pick him up to go shooting, and afterwards, we return to his house to hang out for a bit (assuming we bring guns inside, and store them properly, and he also has an FID). The detective couldn't give me a straight answer on that. He said "the law doesn't state that is wrong, but it also doesn't state it's allowed...unfortunately you have to make that call yourself". Take it for what it's worth.