Underdog

This AMERICAN president and his merry men would do this to his opponents if he could get away with it.

I agree, Ray Ray. It is a right that the state cannot infringe upon, but it does. Anything our Military and Police can possess, WE the PEOPLE should be allowed to have. Those that do wrong with this and abuse this right should get a due processed and actually punished. That sentence should be a deterrent.

I apologize if all of you feel that I have been preaching. I don't want to turn anyone off that is remotely interested in this discussion. The logical extension of the grassroots movement is to put people in power that might actually respresent the beliefs and principles espoused by the movement. If those politicians do not do that then they should be voted out of office. And, those politicians may not necessarily represent the Tea Party in all actions. The Key, as you said, is to resist any kind of national identity. And, in many ways, this is in place. The Tea Party organizes and affects outcomes at the local level first and foremost. The founders were clear on the belief that government officials were citizens and would go to Washington for a time and then go back home to manage their affairs. I don't think they ever envisioned, or imagined there to really be career politician, especially in the House. There should be amendment dealing with this.

Here are some statistics from 2009, but there is more to be found. And, the numbers have probably increased toward converative a few points: http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/conservatives-single-largest-ideological-group.aspx I agree with a lot that you say. However, the Tea Party movement is about limiting the government and its power. I don't think that everyone in office is corrupt. I believe that there are many moral people. I do believe that the current interpretation of the way the sytem is setup is to attract those that just want power and control. I do not think that what we are experiencing is just business as usual, though.

My goal is to save this country, period. I believe that its founding on representative self-governance and the supporting of a free market capitalistic society, whether fully realized yet in our brief history, is the best goal to strive for, and the way for me and my children to live and for a society to prosper. This goes hand in hand with my fundamental belief in protecting that freedom, the freedom of the individual. Up until about three years ago, or so, I was not interested in politics. I believed that those that we gave temporary power to to make decisions for us would generally do the right thing, and I could go on with my life and not worry too much about things I couldn't directly influence. I have realized that that has been a big mistake, and that I have been neglecting my duty as a citizen. The Tea Party movement gave me support and helped me to clearly express my beliefs. The Tea Party has not been borderline militant. That is ridiculous. The American people rose up, not just what you consider the Tea Party, and there was a landslide election to change the direction that our country was taking which included a political and economical direction. Those elected officials, put into office by the people, and those representatives have a responsibility to the people that put them there. There needs do be changes in the way things are done in Washington. Additionally, I beleive in personal responsbililty. Nobody owes you anything, and the government should not be able to tax you exhorbitantly and for uncontitutional things. That is a form of slavery. I am not talking about being taxed for legitimate and constitional reasons. Please provide some specific examples in which the grassroots movement has become too politicized. How has the Tea Party stampeded over your personal beliefs? I agree politics should be intimately personal, and for many that has been the case, until they realized that they were being railroaded. Please enlighten me on what specifically lost your respect for the Tea Party? Lastly, please provide me with some guidelines on where exactly the other side would take us? What is our foreign policy plan? How much taxes will we be required to pay? How much regulation, interferance, and power over our lives will the government assume? When will enough be enough?

There wouldn't be too much point in having it, unless you were going to carry it every day. Then a safety would probably be a welcome addtion. I actually like the thumb safety on a 19ll, but hate the grip safety. I won't get an XD because I don't like grip safeties too much.

My personal opinion is for a safety. It is your choice to use or not. I have a couple of Glocks and I would actually prefer that at least one of them had a thumb safety. The manufacturers have taken the backstraps to heart. Why can't they make guns that come with removable/installable safeties on them and give the owner the choice. I just don't want to cut my frame to install it, and because I cannot daily carry it isn't such an issue. For my nightstand gun, I would prefer that it didn't have the safety and that it was ready to go when the magazine was slammed into it. If it was ever needed, I would want it as simple as possible. But, I do have small children and an extra layer would not hurt. What if my safe fails? That second could be so important while one is fidgeting with the magazine and trying to put it in. If it was only for a range gun that would be used in a controlled environment, then it is probably not needed. It really angers me when people say the safety is between your ears. Everone knows that. They then go on to talk about training. And, yes, training is important, but it is not possible or practical in many situations to get enough of it. A safety adds one more level of protection for someone that isn't trained as well as he or she should be. And, to tell you the truth, even if you are trained well, it isn't a bad idea. If I lived in a state in which I could carry on a daily basis, then I would really want the thumb safety installed on the Glock and I would train to use it and make it part of my muscle memory skills. Many will say that with training you don't need one. Many will say that you might need to make a shot and forget to take the safety off. But, I say, that just as being careful and training without it. You can train with it. I would prefer 100% unholstering and reholstering with a safety applied. If I carried, I would also consider a NY Trigger, but i feel hhat that would really be a disadvantage. So, given the option, and considering the use of the gun, I would opt for the safety.

Razo, what do you base this on? The soundbytes you hear are from the mainstream media, and even the establishment Republicans that are happy with the status quo and remaining in power. They don't want the changes that the Tea Party would bring forth. I'd make a bet with you that you have not been to one Tea Party meeting or gathering and that you watch MSNBC.

What you just wrote is ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. You bash the Tea Party and call them nuts and similar to those that supported the Nazis and brought them into power and you don't know anything about it, really, and then ridiculously, you call for being civil, and you say that that is what bothers you? Wow! We the People do have influence over what is going on. The Tea Party is not hostile. It works in the framework of civility and the rule of law. It is the Left and its continuous attacks and assaults on our laws and traditions, or society and its Constitution. Again, you are misguided. Or perhaps you use the ruse of being a Republican and fiscal conservative to drum up clients. Something just doesn't sit right. If you are sickened by what is going on, then I am sure that you are speaking out against it. Or, would that be an inconvenience. I am sure that you are calling out the liberals for trying to divide the people of our nation in any way that they can and in their attempt to create this hostility and sense of hopelessness. And, you must be supporting the Tea Party that is bringing a varied number of people of all beliefs together against the tyranny and corruption our government would impose on us.

There are plenty of Americans that support the Second Amendment. However, many of them live in rural areas where they can actually shoot and understand what owning a gun is all about. Their population is shrinking while the mass mob living in the cities in continuously bombarded with anti-gun rhetoric, horrific violence, and that is being taught to be antigun. The patient Left is slowly through restriction after restriction and the campaign against, it, it is breeding the thought of gun ownership out of the people.

The Tea Party is not that way. It is an large group of people with many beliefs. There may be extremely religious members in it. But it is a variety of Americans and made up of Democrats, Republicans, and Libertarians. If you belief in the Constitution and limiting the role of the government, then you are an honorary member by default. Apparently, you see yourself as an outsider because you have not been involved. If religious dogma is not your thing, there is plenty of room for you in the Tea Party. The only possible reason it feels like it could be hijacked by the Corpratist wing of the Republican party is because you aren't involved, and you are watching the mainstream media coverage. I was in Washington in Septemer of 2009 and it was one of the most amazing experiences of my life.

America is being tested right now, and it is a time for reflection and action. Decide what your principles are, and act accordingly. We can choose to continue with self-governance and improve upon it, or we can choose something else. And, we don't even know what that someting else will be. As Pelosi said, we have to pass it so see what's in it. I would choose to proceed more conservatively, and to try and learn from history rather than pass the bill right now, right now. In your heart, what is the true nature of humans? Can they be left alone to live and prosper, or do they need to be babysat by remote and detached authority? Which is more important to you, the liberty of the individual, or the tyranny of collectivism? The Tea Party has decided which direction it would take. We desperately need to become real communities and not those that are soically engineered by community organizers. I believe that there is still time to change the trajectory this country, and by default, the direction the rest of the world is going to take. But we have little time and it is slipping away.

I somewhat agree that absolutism is a problem. But I would like to put a finer point on this. I will start by saying that America is made up of roughly 20% liberal, 40% conservative and 40% independent (although they tend to lean in various degrees toward the right). What you would consider the extreme right does do radical, horrific things, like blowing up abortion clinics and such. However, those extremists are in no way supported by the center Right, even though the media tries to make all on the Right as extremists. Most Americans on the right would make it clear that they don't condone the actions of extremists. The Left extremists, on the other hand have as much cover for their actions as the media can get away with. At the very least, they are portrayed as not responsible for their actions. And, for the most part, the mainstream Left does not denounce them, and to some extent view the actions as the ends justifying the means. This all comes down to a philosophy of there being two types of people. There are those that take responsibility for their own actions and believe that humans will generally do the right thing, if left alone. And, there is another group that believes that humans are incapable of taking care of themselves and making their own decisions. These people believe that humans need structure and that the majority need to be told what to do. A majority of people in this country believe the former, and that belief can be seen in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. The founders had a fear of concentrating too much power and thus designed a government framework to limit that power the government would take over its people. They even put into it the ability for reform, as reform would be necessary as things change. However, they set forth principles to a theory of self-governance and attempted to create a limited government with just enough framework for that to occur in. A government and a society in which everyone would be seen as equal under the law. On the other side, the other side has little regard for these principles toward self-governance and personal responsibility. In fact, those outdated documents from another era just get in the way of transforming the society to an ideal of equality in circumstance that they want. The problem is that all people are not equal. Each individual has special skills and aptitudes, and each individual has differing levels of drive. So much so, that they only way that they could bring about their vision of equality is through tyranny. I would further add that the majority of Americans want to be left alone. They do not want this control over them and they are too busy with their own lives to get involved. It is not the Right that is forcing its will on others. It is the Left. It is the Left that wants to get involved in every facet of our daily lives from what toilet we can buy, to what lightbulb we can buy, to what size car we can buy, to what size gun we can buy, etc. Because the Right believes that you can decide what you want, it does not get involved. Is there a place for a middle ground? I believe so. But it would need to swing back, like a pendulum quite far for that to occur. The Left, or statists are bent on changing everything. And their idea of change is NOT the reform that the Right would take.

Why doesn't the mainstream news and all the media call out the idealogues on the Left?

I disagree with your assessment of the Tea Party. You are wrong. They are trying to turn the inevitable. This administration and its minions have not compromised at all and will not compromise. They are not doing this because they believe that it is better for our country, though misguided. They are doing this to destroy our economy and push us so far over the limit that we cannot go back. It would not have mattered had the Tea Party not made a stand. We would be in the same boat. In fact, we might have been in a much worse position without even knowing it. There is no reasoning with this ideologue and this agenda and the powerful people that back him... Soros, etc. There IS no compromise or middle ground. The correct analogy would not be a chain smoker, but rather someone with breast cancer that decides to avoid it by not seeking treatment. Once it metastasizes, it will be too late. The Republican doctor attending would be thinking about the hair loss from radiation treatment, while Dr. Obama would be be thinking about spending a fortune on treating a hang nail and directing everyone's attention to it. Obama, realizing that he may not get elected will become as radical and enact as many executive orders as he can, like getting the gun shop owners in the border states to register people buying guns. His purpose will be so radical to one, distance himself from his party, and two, to continue to inflict mortal wounds on our country and its economy. I, too, work in the financial industry, and I hear what you are saying, but the Tea Party supporters in Congress and the Tea Party are not at fault. Blame the 53% of the people that put this Marxist in power if you want to assign blame. Blame all of those drinking the koolaid and not paying taxes for wanting more entitlements. Blame the crony capitalism, or more correctly, crony corporatism and the unions that have dumbed down the American people, etc. Even blame television, but not the Tea Party. The Tea Party has done incredible things to attempt to turn around what has been the most dangerous trajectory to destroy our American "experiment" of self-governance. The private sector, the golden goose is being choked. Employment will continue to be high and increase while regulation after regulation is implemented, Obamacare is implemented, the private sectors and markets are attacked, and while the executive branch continues to undermine our freedoms through fiat and by undermining the Constitution. The Tea Party is the messenger. And, I guess you know what always happens to the messenger since this is a Gun Board. It really makes me sad that so many Americans don't know what is at stake. What the real issues are. Those that are in power and want to control. They want more power. Maybe, they really do belief that the vast number of humans on this planet cannot be left to their own decisions. I believe that part of this is that those in power know that bad things are coming down the pike. Real bad things in which there is not enough water or food, and they want to get as much control as they can now, before the real SHTF. People don't go to war on full bellies and maybe they want to avert this war. But, instead of trying to work on these real problems that are coming up with our increasing population, their answer is to maintain order with an iron fist. And, if that is not the reason, then the only other reason could be just for control and power for its own sake. Should you be upset that people lost their savings and that the stock market did what it did? Should I be upset that I am losing my job in a couple of months, mostly because of the poor economy that has been crafted by a liberal agenda? Oh, well lets find a scapegoat, the Tea Party. Obama is telling his minions to destroy the coal industry, while he is pretending to create jobs. He says one thing, while he continues on his agenda doing other things to harm us. There is case after case, point after point if you are following the news closely and getting it from credible and varied sources. This is being done to us intentionally. The Housing Market Crisis and what followed was fabricated and intentionally enacted at that time right before the election. Obama is just biding his time as our economy, and that of Europe and Asia collapses through a series of chain reactions. The United States is the main problem to these elitists bringing forth a world order, and giving the world bank even more influence over our lives. If it falls, so does the rest of the world, and they are betting on it. They have things in plan to pick up the pieces and be in control. When people need basic needs met, they will come forth as the big government answer and gain more control. Why do you think that they want to disarm America. It isn't to protect children from finding firearms and shooting each other. It isn't to stop mass shootings. It is to control a populace, many of which still remember a taste of freedom and would not give it up. But, I digress. It is time to go to bed. And I hope the nightmares of history don't repeat themselves.

He also has tendency to share political beliefs with his Emperor Palatine. Another rich left-leaning capitalist-made, gets-all-he-wants person that wants to impose his "utopia" on us. Yes, Han shot first, and I don't want that changed, either. That is the political correctness coming through, though.

IF you have those guns and want to keep them, or if you are not planning on staying in NJ for long, you may want to put them in a safety deposit box and keep in PA, or keep at a friend or relative's home you trust. If you have some money and there are any used guns you want to buy, I would get them while a PA resident before you move.

We helped to create Israel, whether right or wrong. If we stopped supporting Israel, those people would be slaughtered. Additionally, Israel is our only connection to a land that is largely under tyranny. And, in this dangerous world, allies which share many of our beliefs of freedom and democracy, they should be cherished.

Matty, what did you contribute? What did your appearance there look like to others? What have you contributed? Miss Hathaway is obviously doing her part. Obviously you are concerned with our country, or you wouldn't have attended. Maybe you were just curious. Did you show others that Tea Party members could be cool ahd hip? Last time I was at a meeting, they passed around the TEa and not the Koolaid. Are you awake and contributing? What have you done since that meeting? How many letters have you sent to your representative? Did you go to Washington? Have you checked the books that your kids are learning from in your community?

The Tea Party IS the only alternative. Work with the tools that we have. If it wasn't for the Tea Party, things would be much worse than they are at the moment. Many in this government are consciously working to destroy the economy and our society. The Tea Party, or I should say, the American people for the majority, do not want to "fundamentally change" our society to a socialistic, statist land in which WE the Government and NOT We the People is the law of the land. We need to save the principles espoused in our Constitution and make them stronger. The Tea Party is the only entity making a stand for individual freedoms.

Whether you hate politics or not, the clowns that are in charge and that have been in charge and that have been implementing their beliefs and agendas on us, perhaps for about 80 years, those are the ones that want to fundamentally change this society and all that America stands for. America has had some dark times, but the good things in America are much greater. It is still the most free and could be the most prosperous society on Earth, again, if the people were taught personal responsibility and honor,instead of selfishness and entitlement. Americans are accepting of and being taught to be dependent and that they are entitled to everything. There is little sense of community, anymore. This is the way that those in power gain more power and control. So, whether you want to be involved in politics or not, you have a responsibility. You have a responsibility to our children, and you have a responsibility to those that made the ultimate sacrifice. This attitude of avoidance and disenchantment with our political system is what has allowed this to happen. Don't stand by and let our society continue to disintegrate. I challenge you to be a balanced voice of reason and become active in saving our country. As an elected official, I hope you are making a difference.

I agree completely with Old School. The Tea Party is made up of Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians... All are welcomed under the big tent. Here is a Robert Heinlein quote for thought: “Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” By the way, Star Wars Geek must also be a fan of Lucas... And I threw these in for good measure: "I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." -Robert A. Heinlein

It's still pretty rare. I may have been fortunate to have mine come in. When I searched for one, locally, all of the distributors have them allocated as far as I know, so its hard to get. I may have jumped the gun enough, that I might have been at the top of the list for one of them.

I am not sure about your experiences with ultra-right, religous Tea Partiers, and I am not sure about your particular group, but I can tell you that the Tea Party is a grassroots movement and not focused on religion. Essentially, there isn't a centralized group that controls it, although there are major groups like Americans for Prosperity that organize under its banner. It is a gathering of Americans, supported by the majority, in which Americans believe that the government is assuming too much power and control and involving itself in EVERY aspect of our lives. It is about identifying and changing the corruption that occurs mainly because of the disjunction between career politicians and the special interests they serve and the American people that take the hit. It is a movement that resists the attempts of mainly the Left toward class warfare and that the solution is to attack the rich in its quest to create a socialized state. The Tea Party is about individual responsibility. Your experience is NOT typical, most Tea Party members, and I am proud to be one, believe in the right of the individual, and that by protecting that right, you are protecting the right of a free society. The Tea Party, made of many parties, A group of Americans, it would welcome your involvement. Become part of this grass roots individual protecting the rights of individuals. When you get involved, you could share the disillusionment you felt and make it better. This is a chance for Americans to make a difference and put us back on track as a land of liberty that shares the blessings of a free-market society. Actions and agendas have to come from principles, and every day people, members of the Tea Party are working toward that. Be part of that and make a difference.

I am just waiting for the "One Gun a Month" thing to end so that I can go and pickup my new Ruger SP101 (22LR). I think a heavier 4" revolver in .357/.38 would be nice for a home defense gun. A .357 can be hard to control, and it would be difficult for follow-up shots, but it also shoots .38. Also, a .357, even in a 4" barrel, will produce a lot of muzzle flash that can be blinding. But, you can get some souped-up .38 HPs and put in it for home defense and they would probably work better for the control and less flash. A heavier, large-framed revolver would also have less recoil and would be better for you, or a significant other, to handle. You could use the automatic and she could use the revolver (Although, she might go to jail for using YOUR gun, even in self-defense, and with HPs which would probably tack on more jail time). In particular, I think a GP100 is a good choice because it is rugged and you can opt to replace with night sights. I think a single night sight on the front would be particularly effective. But, if you don't want to go that route and replace the sights, then you might want to consider an older used service revolver in .38 for your purposes, such as S&W Model 10 and use the savings to put toward the 22 revolver which would probably become your most shot gun. In particular, I think a 22LR revolver is nice because it is cheap to shoot and will handle a variety of ammo. It would also be good in a survival/SHTF situation because of versatility, availability of ammo, etc. And, its probably faster to reload during practice than an automatic .22. A 9mm double-action revolver might be nice. I would consider the Charter Arms CARR if it ever gets released, although it seems like it would come with a snubby barrel and thus have a pretty good kick. I would prefer at least a longer barrel. However, any 9mm revolvers are rare and expensive and I imagine that the .38/.357 animal is more versatile. If you were going to use your S&W M&P 9mm for defense, which I think would be a good idea, you would have more options in what to get in a revolver since you would not be depending on it for self-defense. You might be able to consider a single action for example, and or a 22LR. I personally would have no trouble leaving a couple of tested magazines from MODERN semi-automatic pistol (200 plus rounds shot through them without a problem) for 4-5 years (or even 10) without worrying about the springs. Just leave one less round in the magazine. For an all out survivalist-type gun, you might want to see if you can locate a Ruger Blackhawk single action w/ an extra cylinder. I believe one distributor has them in stainless with about a 4-5" barrel and you could get one that handles (.357/.38/9mm). Now that would be versatile and fun to shoot. I don't mind the reloading and continually cocking the hammer. I have been told that the 9mm cylinder lacks a little in accuracy, but I am sure that it will get he job done. That would give you flexibility with sharing of cartridges with your M&P and the cheaper pricing of the 9mm to use. And, you would conserve Ammo and think about your shots, more. Or, another option would be a Ruger Single Six w/ an extra cylinder. It would be cheap to shoot the 22LR, and it you got the 6 plus in barrel it would be pretty accurate. And, the .22WMR cylinder would give you penetration capabilities. Ruger has a Single 10 that would be nice and you can load 2 at a time, but no 22 Magnum cylinder for it, yet. An older Ruger Speed/Security Six might also be a really nice gun, if you could find one and didn't need to update the sights. If it was me in your situation, I would probably go with the .22LR double action revolver to begin with such as the new Ruger SP101, unless you wanted to arm both yourself and another in your household. If you went this route, you could pickup a used GP100 with the ammo savings from shooting the 22LR, later on, and yet you would still get a lot of practice. Regardless, no matter what you get, a quality revolver is a joy and will be something that you can pass down.