hardlife_nef

I don' t think there is any one thing you can point at and say this is why. I believe that it is a combination of factors, most of which have been mentioned. Let me throw in one more. Apathetic gun owners. I'm sure we've all seen it at one time or another. The it doesnt affect me, I got mine. Or this law doesn't affect me I'm a skeet shooter. There are many out there that dont care unless it directly affects them. Add to that the group that doesnt wanna make a fuss for fear it will make it harder for them or negatively impact them. How many have gone to the local pd and actually said something when handed additional forms? How many grumbled to themselves that it was illegal yet still went through the process? We are the ones that can make a difference. Don't wait for someone to do it for, you see where that has gotten us. Until we all stop grumbling about it and actually do something about it nothing will change for the better. Just my $.002345 (adjusted for inflation)

Surveillance would depend on location. You think they will install cameras at a facility that doesnt have just for this event? They dont pay cash, but typically its a gift certificate, at least at the 3 I observed. No comment on casings but the whole anonymous thing... If the AG guidelines are followed then proper paperwork is to be filled out so coe at a minimum. Cant be anonymous and have a coe. Has anyone ever been arrested based on a weapon that was bought back? If you're going to break the law and have one of these why not do it ina way that helps everyone. Drop the anonymous thing, run a check on the weapons after they are turned in (prosecute people turnin in weapons involved in crime or stolen) and sell the weapons back to people legally allowed to own instead of destroying them. Possibly illegally owned weapons out of the hands of those selling, possibly valuable antiques saved from destruction, happy gun owners getting weapons for fair price and lastly the municipality makes a profit. Seriously if they are paying only 250 for a fully functional "assault rifle" , not that hard to turn a profit on it.

I think its sad that on the one hand most forum members are against local municipalities adding additional paperwork requirements for fid/ptp because its against state law, yet have no problem with illegal gun buy back programs. Both are clearly illegal according to state law. Personally both crimes disgust me. Hey come dump your evidence anonymously and get rewarded for it. Aside from being illegal from the get, does this not also potentially make them accesories to any crimes that may have been commited with these weapons? They are paying to potentially destroy evidence. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't go well for any of us if we attempted to do so. Had I the funds this is a suit I would back against the state. Follow your own laws.

I believe I mentioned the exif data in my first post. Not suggesting this guy is anything either way. I see some are taking this all way too seriously. I noticed that some were happy that dude was arrested and while if guilty then great. I was curious as to how and if a warrant was issued and whether or not it was based on more than a pic, which I personally havent seen. Not in any way shape or form saying dude is innocent nor guilty. I seem to recall reading somewhere that in this country which does include this state although it doesn't seem like it at times, that you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. I was surprised many folk seemed convinced of guilt based on a pic of the guy in jail and a story in the paper. Not saying that it shouldnt be investigated. Curious on why this one in particular was. Ive seen many posers with weapons where the exif data clearly shows it was taken in NJ. Some of those fools are still around others locked up for charges other than weapons. None were investigated. Out of curiosity has anyone here seen the pic in question? We are all ( I'll be the first to admit i assumed this as well) going under the assumption that it was a sbs based on the story saying sawed off shotgun. While sbs are illegal in NJ, not all sawed off shotguns are illegal so long as they are within proper length requirements. Btw how arent the 2 situations the same? Cops show up to investigate after you post pic. Regardless of how you posed for pic you still posted pic of you and weapon. I always question the official story. Doesnt matter how I feel about the subject, pro or against. Anyway i'm done with this thread. On to better stuff.

Im sure no judge in NJ has ever signed a questionable warrant. Never happen. Not in NJ. By golly we could get in trouble, btw could you just stamp denied on that pile of concealed carry permits so I can sign them. How dare these ppl think they would get approved, they should just hire personal security. All joking aside and I'm not saying this is the the rule not the exception, but if believe it doesn't happen I have a bridge I'd be willing to sell you cheap. For the most part cops in this state do their jobs as best they can and most are honest hard working folk. But jusdges like officers aren't suddenly sacrosanct due to their position. In the name of justice will do what they think is right for good or ill. Same with appearance. Just cause someone looks a certain way doesnt mean anything. A guy could be 6' tall be covered in tattoos have a 6" long poinard and 2 pony tails ride a harley and still be an upstanding citizen. Not sure bout some but I live in Union City and work takes me to JC, Newark and other not so great areas. Ive walked into the homes of ppl that looked like straight up killer types and they turned out to be amongst the nicest people. I have seen one such character who to this day lives on Ocean ave literally take off his coat and give it to someone in need. Again not saying thats not the exception, just trying to illustrate that you really cant make a determination without all the facts, which we dont have. Personally, you couldn't pay me to be on facebook. Nor would i ever post something like that for any reason. That being said, have any of you ever posted a range pic. A pic of a new purchase. How about the classic hunter pic with the weapon laying on or near the deer or whatever game you just harvested? What if based on that pic they came at you warrant in hand (and at this point we still dont know if one was issued based on the article) youd be cool with that? Regardless of you having nothing illegal, youd be ok with it? I for one would not comrade.

Lol. Lol that was good. Caught me off guard

Not leo, not a lawyer, prosecutor nor judge. Just reread my post and rest of thread. I dont see anywhere I stated it was easy. As for how I arrived at my conclusion it was based on a history of people I have know or read about as well as cases in the media concerning firearms and fire arm law. You trying to tell me that NJ judges (not saying all) have never just taken a cop or prosecutors word for it, nor have they ever issued a warrant that turned out to have no merit? They have never shown bias against gun owners. Not sure how I pushed your buttons and I realize we are on the internet but I see no cause to jump on me. There is no progress if everyone sees things the same way and dont discuss both sides of the issue. Again I am not on either side of this issue and if you have more info/facts on this than has been put out there then great. But your comment doesnt further the conversation which is what I thought this was

Lol. Not quite. Not really on either side of this just trying to be objective as we dont have all the facts. Nothing ive said is false. Sbs are legal elsewhere with tax stamp and im sure any practicing lawyer in NJ can regal you with stories about judges. No nned to lump me in with crazies.

And we all know that no judege would in NJ would turn a blind eye or bend the law to arrest a gun nut right...

I read the article. I did not however see the pic. Not much info in the article so some questions arise for me. How did they determine where pic was taken? Was exif data the downfall of this dumbass? How was the search warrant obtained. There was a search warrant wasn't there? Short barreled weapons are legal with atf paperwork so while questioning might have been the right move, I cant agree with getting a warrant just off a picture. Still don't know if the weapons were real and the article mentions he was also charged for the knives. So owning knives is illegal now as well? Carrying knives in the prefecture of New Jersikstan may be but owning? I'm not trying to defend this guy nor what he did, but this sends an alaming precedent. Is it ok for the police to pick me up because someone took a pic of me shooting an AK with a drum with the stock folded under on full auto with silencer at a friends in NH and posted it on FB or twitter even though said friend has all the stamps the atf requires? Should it matter that the guy has a certain "look"? If the shotgun was real (I say if because some are buying replica weapons cause companies ship to NJ and use these to pose with. based on what i hear from ppl in JC) and it the pic was in NJ then great illegal weapon off the street, but at what cost. Is the price of one illegal weapon off the street worth the cost? I for one am not sure.

It was all rather simple. I called the mayor and asked why was it that the city was not following state law. This was late Jan of last year. He had the chief call me and I explained what was going on. He seemed surprised andtook copious notes during our conversation. He had just been appointed chief and told me he would look into it, but as he had just taken over it might be a while. I gave him 3 months to settle in before following up. I never heard bac from him even though I would call and leave my info with his secretary several times a week. As many of you know the fbi served the city with a warrant over some construction irregularities recently, well yesterday I got a letter from the mayor about how his administration would always help in any investigation and that any employee found to be engaged in illegal ctivities would have termination proceedings begun. So I called the mayor and asked how it was that his letter stated one thing yet the city did not follow state law for application of fid. Again he had the chief call me. He apolgized for not having followed up and that he would speak with council on how to proceed, to which my comment was that I did not have the luxury of consulting with counsel on what laws I would or wouldn't follow, that the law well at least that specific part was very clear. He assured me he would look into it. A couple hours later he called to inform me that the city would follow the state law. He had discovered that the additional paperwork policy had been unilateraly instated by a clerk ome time ago (no longer around). He had spoken with the state police on how they handled it and what their advice was. He was told they followed the state law and recommended he do they same. So since the city policy was unilaterally changed against the state law he would unilaterally change it to follow state law. I'm not going to tell you that a simple conversation will work in your town, but that should not stop you from having it. Who knows, that might be all it takes. Our mayor told me he personally didnt think just anyone should have a gun, but he also did his job and kept his oath of office by supporting the constitution. So props on that account. Its not every politician that will encourage a policy change that goes against his beliefs. While that is how it should be it doesnt always work that way. <rant> The way things are going in this country we all need to stop making excuses and stand up for our rights. They will take them if you let them. Just because you are a member of NJ2AS, the NRA or any other org doesnt mean youve done all you can. Dont get me wrong we should all support as many of these pro 2A groups as we can, but dont just leave it at that. Talk to your friends, neighbors, local cop, fed hell anyone that will listen. Help them understand that while their beliefs might preclude them from owning a gun that its not right to deny a god given right to someone else. Keep beating that horse. If your tired of making the same points write them down or record yourself and pass it along that way. YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. You just have to try.</rant>

I just got off the phone with the chief of police. He was calling to inform me that effective immediately UCPD will be following state law and dropping its additional paperwork requirements. A small victory, but shows that it can be done. I usually like to keep a low profile but am glad I rocked the boat in this case. Hope other towns follow suit. Dont be discouraged. It happened here and our mayor who is a member of mayors against illegal guns helped.

Good points, you had me until regulating rights. Regulated rights aren't rights, unless you can show me the flaw there. (convince me I should say as I can argue both sides) My last post till tomorrow off for my shift.

Well considering that many officers involved in shootings must undergo psyciatric evaluations and under current NJ law just having done the same a civilian loses their right but he officer doesn't, I'd have to say yes. So long as the rest of us can as well. Do you contend that there weren't mentally ill people who had firearms before these laws? Are there any documented cases where this was an issue, where they went on a rampage? And I don't meanthat hey were declared incompetant after their spree. You are stating your views and I repect them, but what is your constitutional justification? Not looking to argue or anything of the sort just trying to gain a better understanding.

You mean people like Bill Clinton when he said The constitution is a radical document. It is the job of government to reign in people's rights. or If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees.

where in the constitution it says that you lose the rights it affirms when you break the law? What I'm sayin is why should a person lose the right to keep and bear arms because they commited a crime? I can almost hear the rightous anger with which replies are being typed, but leat me expound on this thought for a moment. I know quite a few people that have had domestic violence charges brought against them and served time in jail for it when all they did was break up with a female. (In PR Law 54 just needs a person to accuse you and requires no proof so false accusations are rampant) How about the otherwise perfectly law abiding person that bought a car and didn't notice the hollow point .22 under the spare tire and gets charged. I think you see where I'm going, but lets take it a step further. How about the guy whos only crime is smoking weed? The guy who is doing time for assault when all he did was protect and old lady that was being assaulted? Are these people any less qualified to own or carry a weapon? But regardless of your personal feeling in the matter where does it state in the constituion that the government can take away or otherwise legislate a right? Once you regulate a right it isn't a right it is a priviledge and those can be taken away. But nef, you can't shout fire in a theater. I argue that you can. There are laws in place for the consequences of abusing your right to say what you want but that is very different from telling you you can't. I don't need to agree with what you say, I can even be vehemently opposed to your views, but I have bled for and will die for if need be for your right to state them. I know others share this view on the first, but why is it that so many stand arm in arm with the antis on this point. But nef if scumbags can have guns then whats to stop them from using them from using them to cause havoc and mayhem? Whats stopping them now? What stopped them in the day of our countries founders? I argue that we would be a more civilised society if you weren't sure who was armed as everyone had an equal chance to be so armed. Yes I know this might make me sound like a nut job. I like to from time to time take ideas to the extreme or argue the other side to get a better perspective on things. Not to mention that it is important to hear other viewpoint than yours or your friends. It's a good way to get a better look at the big picture. I honestly am not 100% sure where I stand on this as I do know many people (who have commited crimes) that I dare say I would trust more with a firearm than some police officers I know. I'm not ragging on cops, there are some good ones out there. I immediately think of the New Mexico sherrif that has upheld rights over federal "laws" and some others who locally have done the right thing when it was not in their best interest. Let the hate mail begin

Some good replies here guys as well as some often needed levity. Keep your efforts going. mcbethrthat is some quality work and our community needs more of it. All I ever hear in the msm is news about anti protests or gun related violence, usually both in concert. While I feel for all the families that have lost loved ones to this type of violence, I also know (as do most here) that further gun restrictions are not the answer. This http://t.co/lthDpZrt cracks me up every time I see it but it does illustrate the point. Make sure antis you know see it. Perhaps we can be as proactive as these moms against guns. Why shouldn't we also stage marches and demonstrations? Love or hate them the OWS/anonymous movement have been able to get their message out and converted more than a few. Don't sit around and let them take your rights! Do something about it then do something else. If oyu are not a front line type of person, then perhaps your skills in other areas can help the cause. Don't just say eff it, I got mine, or I don't wanna rock the boat cause I might get denied. You may not like how it ends and there won't be anyone there to help you. Remember that Janet Reno said it "Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal." It is your duty to preserve your rights. No one is going to do it for you.

Training is without a doubt extremely important in surviving an unexpected violent/potentially violent situation, but keep in mind that the quality of your training/practice is just as important. Remember practice contrary to popular belief does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect and perfection will never be attained it is just someting to strive for. Personally I refuse to shoot at anything other than silhouettes or 3d targets. Why, well I have no fear of nor have any geometric shapes ever accosted me. If you become used to shooting at humanoid shapes in the event you ever have to shoot at someone in self defense or in the defense of another (and I hope you never have to) it will be less traumatic. Practice shooting with your off hand as well as your strong hand, shoot from sitting positions, laying down as you do when in bed. Shoot from the seated position as if you were in your car and the perp is behind you. When you're at home watching tv, practice drawing your weapon, changing mags. Practice retrieving your weapon from its storage location with the lights out, with your eyes closed, blindfolded, with one hand disabled then the other... You get the idea. Set up odd weekends where you or your friends are elegible to be mock mugged and practice those scenarios. You may get some odd looks or even have to find a different range or have to rent one out for your group to be able to do some of these things. I strongly suggest taking simunitions training and any other real world scenario type training if you can afford it, if not (I know I can't I am waging a running battle with homelessness right now and barely winning) but the other methods cost little to nothing and youd be surprised at how you react to the same situations when not expecting them. Hell maybe some of the guys on this forum will be willing to help each other out in this, I know I have no issues helping any that ask. Remember that chance favors the prepared and reacting isn't the answer it is acting on situations. Most of all know that pulling your weapon (not that we can carry anyway, nor can we actually use it defend ourselves if we could in all scenarios) isn't always the best response. Sometimes just handing them that decoy wallet (you do carry a decoy right) is the best solution based on circumstances. The goal is to live to see another day and be with your loved ones. I realize that most of you already know most if not all of this, I'm not telling you anything new. Now you know why I don't post very often, as I tend to ramble when I discuss things I feel very strongly about. I grew up between here in UCNJ and several caserios in PR including candelaria (murder islands equivalent of housing projects ala Kerry Woods or Cabrini Green. Cops frequently have National Guardsmen with them when serving warrant in these areas) and sadly have been in some bad situations and have gotten myself involved in some trying to help others out of the same. (and have the scars to prove it) I just wanted to give you all a little insight in how my twisted mind works. I am not a one upman or anything of the sort, I just like to share my experiance.

As I am getting ready to walk out the door to start my new job as a taxi driver on the night shift a thought strikes me. What have you done lately to preserve your 2nd amendment rights? Being a member of a national or state org while a good thing is not enough. So what have you done? As for me I recently had a conversation with our new cleo as well as the mayor concerning the extra forms required by the city. Both seemed genuinely surprised that these were not required by the state and the cleo even took notes during the conversation. Having just recently taken over the job he promised to look into it and told me they were just following the procedure that was in place prior to him starting but if he was able to verify what I had said he would promptly eliminate them. I will be calling next week to follow up. Your turn...

Sad that this has to even be asked. Not that you would ask, but that the laws in this state make it needful.

Given all the factors during the incident, I am very confident that had I been armed the situation would have gone differently. Hard to relate all the factor to someone that wasn't there. I say this being a Army and Marine Corps veteran. I have also held a ccw permit when I was a Florida resident and been in 2 other similar scenarios where thanks to having a firearm turned out differently. I practice scenarios such as these with friends several times a month. I'm not saying that being armed is always going to be able to make a difference, but not being able to make that determination is putting me in greater danger. I very strongly believe that if you are going to make the concious choice to carry a concealed firearm (in state where the constitution actually exisits) then you have to make the commitment to train for the time when you may need to use said firearm. Otherwise you are just putting yourself and possibly others in greater danger. In the end I just believe that I should be the one to be able to decide whether to give up money or lead based on the situation.

Good points. This is a first draft I posted here looking for comments (and to get it off my chest). Yeah it is a bit hard to read and in desperate need of editieng and some formatting love.

Not opposed to the idea.

I appreciate all the comment, guess I was hoping for more on what the post said as opposed to what I was going to do with it. Still gonna send it with a cover letter containing a simple summary. I do so with the knowledge that it will most likely go nowhere and is likely a waste of time and effort, however I would not feel right to not even try. No matter how useless the attempt may be I must do something. This is just my way of doing so. Hell I may have a bunch printed and hand them out. I'm sure the people in DC thought that making noise wouldn't make a difference, nor the people in Chicago. It has to change and if it doesn't at least I can say to myself that it wasn't for lack of effort on my part as I drive to my new home in a state that believes in freedom. I realize that there are people doing things that will have a real impact like the current lawsuits, but I don't feel that that negates the effort. Would that the state abandoned this reckless spending of funds on a case that they all but admit can't be won considering the economic crisis the sate is in. Just how spending money we don't have to defend a position that is indefensible just baffles me.

Thanks for the perspective, I do ramble especially when excited or passionate about something. I will take this into consideration. Perhaps I will send my blowhard comments and add something such as your comments (or something like them) as a summary of sorts. (bad executive summary flashbacks)