Mr.Stu

My court order states I may carry the guns listed. It does not say I can carry ONLY the guns listed. It also says that to add guns I only need to write to the court with the details of the new guns and provide proof of qualifying. It does not say the court will amend the CO. The fact that the court has been ordered not to amend my court order is irrelevant. I have completed the steps required by the court order.

I meant at the spinners.

Spinners are allowed for rimfire and air rifle only. No static steel and no centerfire allowed. https://dep.nj.gov/wp-content/uploads/njfw/range_descriptions.pdf

NRA basic pistol does not cover any use of force material, so I would not expect it to be accepted.

The PI was not overturned. It is subject to a stay pending appeal. I know NJ has submitted their brief for the appeal, but I don't think I have seen our side's response yet. The 3rd circuit is scheduled to hear the appeal in October.

The problem with LG is their warranty looks great, until you try to find someone who is approved to work on them. Having said that, I have a 7 year old LG front loader that is not having any issues - touch wood.

Just curious..what statute did you apply under? I applied under 2C:58-4. I am not claiming the changes are not ex post facto, but to claim the section didn't exist makes no sense.

Does that mean none of the "sensitive places" apply to me either because when I got my permit it was valid in all parts of the state except schools?

So clearly the entire cost should be counted towards what you say you HAD to pay to get an NJ permit. I don't choose my customers. My customers choose me - just like you chose the range you did. You have your reasons for it, but don't complain that the state made you pay something when it was YOUR choice to pay a premium rate. Maybe I am an ass, but can you explain how anyone can legitimately sign off that someone has demonstrated safe gun handling if they haven't seen them handling a gun in a manner appropriate to the situation? If using a holster is so safe and easy that you don't think it needs assessing, why does the range you chose need you to sit through a $219 class? No, I don't requalify previous customers for free because I don't need to. Everybody that qualified with me shot HQC1, which is more than substantially similar to HQC2 (modified)

If you choose to pay for things you don't need, how is that anybody's fault but yours? There is no requirement in the law for a basic pistol course. There are places to get run through a qual for significantly less that $125. If you did need to take that class because you are new to handguns, then you should probably taken it regardless of wanting a carry permit. If you went somewhere that had a clue what they were doing for your first qual, you wouldn't need a second one. It baffles me that an instructor would think that they could assess the safe handling of a handgun for carry without the use of a holster. Seriously? Regardless of the requirements in the statutes, there is such a thing as personal responsibility. If you have any sense of responsibility, you would be investing in your skill building to be able to carry with confidence with due regard for everybody else in your vicinity. Besides, building shooting skills is fun. Alternatively, if you blindly believe you have the right to carry a deadly weapon without a clue how to do so safely and are absolved of any responsibility for the harm you may cause to others because you don't even know what you don't know, then carry on. I ran a class today that I have advertised on this forum. The price was $125 and included instruction and a qual. Not everybody passed, and for valid reasons. If a person doesn't even have the self awareness to keep their finger off the trigger when they're not even on the sights, let alone firing a shot, or are so devoid of muzzle awareness that they can't stop themselves from pointing their own gun at themself, they have no business walking among us with a gun. This is after they have been instructed that these things are what not to do, and why they are bad, and in a low stress class with nobody trying to harm them. How is that going to play out in a fight? Deity help them and anyone nearby. /rant

That's a different argument. Ignoring what is actually written won't get anyone very far when challenging it on ex post facto grounds.

Does nobody want the last ticket?

You would need go through NICS to get one in NJ - this dumb state thinks a pellet gun is a firearm. Head into free America and get one there. You just need to follow the transport laws to get it home - i.e. unloaded and locked in the trunk, or unloaded and cased before you cross the NJ border. ETA - make sure you don't get one with an integrated suppressor.

The issue is that the prohibited places listed in the A4769 apply to all firearms, not just handguns. Outside of those areas, your FPIC has the same value as it did previously. 2C:58-4.6 Prohibited areas, carrying, firearms, destructive device. 7. Places where the carrying of a firearm or destructive device is prohibited. a. Except as otherwise provided in this section and in the case of a brief, incidental entry onto property, which shall be deemed a de minimis infraction within the contemplation of N.J.S.2C:2-11, it shall be a crime of the third degree for any person, other than a person lawfully carrying a firearm within the authorized scope of an exemption set forth in N.J.S.2C:39-6, to knowingly carry a firearm as defined in subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-1 and a crime of the second degree to knowingly possess a destructive device as defined in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C:39-1 in any of the following places, including in or upon any part of the buildings, grounds, or parking area of: 2C:39-1 Definitions. 2C:39-1. Definitions. The following definitions apply to this chapter and to chapter 58: ... f. "Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

2C:58-4 has existed for years. That is the section that described what we had to do prior to 12/22/2022. A4769 only modified that section. It did not create it.

Good lord! That's a lot for a class. I have paid $900 for a 3 day class with Rob Leatham and Mike Seeklander which was way above what's needed for passing a qual for a carry permit.

Agreed, but your choice is comply with the current regs, or don't get your permit any time soon - up to you. If you include the purchase of the gun, a class or two to learn the basics and the ammo to practice with it, you could be right, probably on the low side. Where does it say no exceptions? The direction is HCQ2 (modified) or substantially similar. If you have only 1 usable hand, that hand is both your strong hand and your support hand. Kneeling is only called for in phase III. This is where "substantially similar" comes into play. Not going to argue with this, although Hanlon's Razor suggests otherwise.

Defense of another is a justification for using deadly force. I have been saying this for ages in response to the people who don't want to learn to be accurate beyond 10-15 yards. Here's a little, poorly kept secret - if you can hit a 12" target at 25 yards, you can also hit it at any distance closer than that. Also, they make a big deal of drawing from concealment and that cops don't do it. Ever heard of plain clothes detectives? Also, how many people are going to use a level 3 retention holster for their quals now that they realize that they can use any holster to qualify? Anybody? The uniformed cops do. Lastly, making a big deal about the questions on the online application regarding local government officials being a 1st tier bonus. This is to force the application to be processed by NJSP instead of the local PD to attempt to eliminate undue influence in the vetting process, not to fasttrack and rubber stamp the application.

Only 1 week away and there's 1 spot still available. Get in while you can.

Get rid of the cat, obviously.

Only 2 spots left. Get one while you can.

If, by happy coincidence, the training and qualification you completed prior to the publishing of these requirements fulfils all the requirements, you did it before October 1st. In my mind 2 days before or 7 months before makes no difference. Both are before October 1st.

Here is the law: 2C:58-4 Permits to carry handguns. 2C:58-4. g. Training requirement. (1) On or prior to the first day of the seventh month following the enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.), the superintendent shall establish training requirements in the lawful and safe handling and storage of firearms, which shall consist of an online course of instruction, in-person classroom instruction, and target training administered by a certified firearm instructor on a firing range approved by the superintendent and on the list of approved ranges published on the State Police website. The training shall include, but not be limited to, demonstration of a level of proficiency in the use of a handgun in such manner as required by the superintendent and training, developed or approved in conjunction with the Police Training Commission, on justification in the use of deadly force under State law. (2) A person who obtained a permit pursuant to this section prior to the first day of the seventh month following the date of enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.) and which permit is not scheduled to expire until at least one year following the enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.) shall comply with the training requirement established pursuant to this subsection no later than the first day of the tenth month following the date of enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.).

The certification requires the instructor to sign off that "The above-named Permit to Carry applicant has successfully qualified on a course of fire substantially similar to HQC2 (modified) included in the Private Citizen Concealed Carry Use of Force Training manual, utilizing a minimum of 50 rounds and receiving a minimum score of 80%." If a person cannot physically carry out an action such as kneeling, as an instructor, I would sign off anyway under the "substantially similar" part.

Requirements are here: https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/forms.shtml Scroll down to permit to carry