SpeedKillz

Thanks for bringing some much needed humor to the thread. It's a good thing you are wearing eye protection because I've heard that the P90 is so weak, you risk eye injury as the bullets have been known to bounce off paper targets. Regular sunglasses are more than sufficient eye protection for anything 5.7x28.

I'm not panzermk2 (aka Elite Ammunition) I have no affiliation with any ammo manufacturers or gun dealers. I'm just a guy that enjoys sharing info on the platform and sometimes debating about it. I really don't do this anymore. You guys are "lucky" I stopped by... j/k. Because of the ammo crunch, Jay (Elite Ammunition) has only been able to offer very limited production of 5.7 ammo. I doubt he has any interest in sending samples out. He did send some samples to the dentist in 2011. The dentist promised online that he would test them sometime in 2012. He never did. Or perhaps he did but didn't want to publish the results as it would have made all his rants look foolish. I don't know..

Here are the two stories I have come across with all my reading; the please stop shooting me story and the P90 failing to break a rib story. I copy and paste this story for your reading enjoyment. At the end there is a very substantial gelatin test performed by 5.7 enthusiasts and haters alike. The results are surprising:

Please provide some documentation of the 5.7 platform "failing" in the line of duty. Are you going to make me beg? I have been looking for it for years now. I can't seem to get a link or anything. Just he said, she said... All the hard data I seem to come up with is always positive. That makes no sense to me. Carried by: 40+ countries... 100's of U.S. agencies...

Let me share some public info from law enforcement or military involving the 5.7 in the line of duty: http://web.archive.org/web/20050310072413/http://www.trmagonline.com/Spring2003TR/spring2003experienceswiththefnp90.htm I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon. <snip> The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. <snip> If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready. -- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below) http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -wall.html Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger." http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tac ... firepower/ S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division. “I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.” Two more examples: http://web.archive.org/web/200209030...c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver) Here is some info from FiveSeven forum. "- The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident. The SB193 subsonic was not (to my knowledge) introduced until 1999. - Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find. - The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either." - Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation. - Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons. - Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived. - I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there." - Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject. - Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings. - I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything. Those are most of the shooting details I have. The others are too vague to draw much from. I do know that a PD in South Carolina (not sure specifically which department, as there are several PDs in SC using the P90) has shot multiple BGs with it. I wouldn't say there have been enough shootings to date to conclusively prove that the 5.7x28 is adequate, but the shootings we're aware of certainly give more likelihood/probability that the round will turn out. This thread might also interest you -- it contains a list of US agencies using the P90 and/or Five-seveN." "- Firstly, of the Houston SWAT shooting it is often claimed that Sandy Wall works or has worked for FNH USA. This is false. Secondly, it is claimed that since this shooting involved 5.56 rounds also hitting the subject, it isn't a legitimate case for the 5.7x28mm. However, not only did the article author state that "The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets" and then "In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well", but it has also been stated elsewhere that the 5.56 rounds impacted IIRC on the hands/arms of the subject. - The Jacksonville, FL shooting(s) are often severely represented. Some 5.7 opponents even go so far as to claim that the incident involved "all 50 rounds into the BG" and that the victim(s) merely reacting by "asking the officers to stop shooting them". Not only do statements from Jacksonville PD indicate that none of these subjects survived, but no one from or in contact with Jacksonville PD has given details on where or exactly how many times the subjects in these shootings were hit. **NEW INFO** Here is a 2003 Florida Times-Union article on a Jacksonville shooting with the P90. To give everyone some background, it is frequently claimed by detractors that the P90 performed poorly in shootings with Jacksonville SO SWAT. In some of the more absurd stories, it's claimed that the subject was shot 50 times and that he said "stop shooting me with that thing". Of course, none of these details are claimed in this news article. Instead, it says the subject died after being shot 15 times and there is no indication that he fired back at SWAT after being shot. The SWAT officer most likely fired one burst (at 900 RPM, 15 shots is a one second trigger squeeze) or a series of short bursts. Regardless, the subject was stopped and no one else was harmed. A search of the website doesn't bring up any similar incidents. Here is the article for your information: Quote: http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072403/met_13102142.shtml LAW & DISORDER: Pair of police shootings justified, Shorstein says By Paul Pinkham Times-Union staff writer, Jacksonville police officers who shot an armed drug dealer and a suspected bank robber in separate incidents last week were justified in using deadly force, State Attorney Harry Shorstein said yesterday. Shorstein said he expects the death of Dwight James Jr., who was shot by a SWAT officer 15 times with a P-90 machine gun, to be reviewed by the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office Firearms Review Board. James, 26, was shot July 15 during an undercover cocaine investigation after he aimed a .45-caliber automatic revolver at police, Shorstein said. "If a drug dealer, during the course of a drug transaction, points a firearm at a law enforcement officer, there's a very good chance that he will be killed," Shorstein said. Shorstein said he hasn't decided whether to charge another man who was with James with felony murder, a law that allows murder charges against a felon if someone dies during the commission of the crime. Gordon Lamar Polite, 22, already faces drug charges. Shorstein said he's leaning against felony murder, which normally is used in armed robbery cases. <snip> - I'm aware of another incident in 2002 where a 5.7 round ricocheted and struck a Duluth, GA police officer in the hip, injuring her. Some try to cite this as a case where the round 'failed to stop'. " Bellevue, NE SWAT killed a pit bull in 2003 during a drug raid; it was shot with two rounds of SS190 out of a Five-seveN pistol. I know of five deer being killed by one of our members with a Five-seveN, none of them taking more than one round. One of our members has used his Five-seveN to kill small/medium-sized hogs (see that thread here) as well as another member that has used his Five-seveN with handloads on badger, fox, deer and rabbits (see that here) with good results. All of these cases were with civilian ammunition or handloads, except for the Belleview, NE incident. Keep in mind, these cases were the performance of the rounds out of the shorter pistol barrel, out of the P90's 10-inch barrel, or the PS90's 16-inch barrel, performance will be even better. Between the Five-seveN and P90, there is a velocity difference of about 200 fps. SS190 averages about 2100 fps out of the Five-seveN, and 2350 fps out of the P90. The PS90 (civilian version of the P90) gives about a solid 225 fps increase over the standard P90, meaning it will give about 2600 fps with the better ammo types -- SS190, SS192, SS195. Also, for any worried that SS192/SS195 performance will not parallel SS190 performance, please note that the tissue damage and penetration of the two in testing is virtually equal. Both yaw with no expansion or fragmentation, and gel penetration is identical in testing done by Ammolab's David Difabio." Okay, so I've shared some DOCUMENTED accounts of the 5.7x28mm being used in the line of duty. Now please, PLEASE, for the love of God, give me some documentation on how the 5.7x28mm "FAILED" in the line of duty. Or whatever it is that keeps getting regurgitated and NEVER has been revealed. Did a gun blow up? Did it spin around and shoot the officer holding it? Did the bullets bounce off the suspect? Did the suspect catch the bullets in his mouth and spit them back out injuring an officer? 2:00 minute mark for a memory refresher.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbk7UqLiOFM

These closed circles... do they fly around in black helicopters too? The unusually high fatality rate at Virginia Tech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_tech_massacre) was due to the fact that 31 of the 33 deceased were shot in the head. The average mass shooter, fortunately, does not achieve that sort of shot placement. Per news reports, most of the wounded survivors at Fort Hood were shot in limbs and other non-vital areas of their bodies. The soldiers at Fort Hood were highly motivated during that attack, one way or the other; all of them were very intent on surviving and helping others survive. Many of the victims described feeling the effects of adrenalin during the shooting, and two of the victims even charged the shooter with chairs (according to the pre-trial testimony, both were killed with shots to the chest before they could reach him). 44 People were injured at Fort Hood that day and 14 died - 12 at the scene and 2 at the hospital. That puts the fatality rate Hasan achieved at Fort Hood with the Five-seveN higher than the national gunshot fatality rate involving all pistol calibers. Any other softballs you would like for me to smash out of the park?

I have literally a limitless supply of facts and reports comparing the 5.7 to all the other calibers in ballistic gelatin, animals, humans, wood, concrete, windshields, etc. etc. etc. You ought to see the mountain of news reports along with gory photos from Mexican news agencies where the 5.7 has been used to kill 100's of people. The news over in Mexico is very liberal about showing photos of gunshot victims. It might be some of the best data yet, but isn't really suitable for most people's taste. Lots of blood, lots of death, lots of bullet holes. Most news articles have photos of the 5.7 casings lying around as well.

You need to understand that the use of the 5.7 to take down medium-sized game is not for the purpose of creating a new niche in the hunting world, it is to prove to the tester and others who are interested, that even the weakest 5.7 target round you can fire out of the pistol has enough energy and penetration to take down sizeable animals. And I don't mean inhumanely either. Many reports from deer "autopsies" describe "boiling the lungs", tearing the heart in two, etc. etc. Watch the PS90 take down a fairly large (200lb+?) hog as fast as a typical .308. in the video I provided. It actually is quite surprising and is surprising to the hunters that try it. Hogs are not easy to kill. I actually have a report from an officer describing the SS190 taking out a suspect and splitting his heart in two when the M.E. cut him open. Nobody had see anything like it with regards to a pistol wound. Take the data for what it's worth. Animals are shot with common caliber weapons and then shot with the 5.7 with the damage either being equal or greater in some cases with the 5.7. The round is small, but it's bullet behavior/construction is intelligent and velocity is high, both of those traits lead the round to outperform in tissue and penetration relative to the typical person's assumptions. Now I'm not advocating that people start using the 5.7 as a regular hunting choice. Even the 5.56 is illegal to hunt deer with in many places. It's best to "overkill" somewhat when choosing a hunting rifle to make up for poor shots.

Your acrimonious attitude towards me and your continued participation in this thread indicates you are having a real battle inside over what I'm saying. I would advise either just avoiding the thread, or reading what I say with an open mind and allowing just a tiny shred of light into your narrow point of view. Both options will give you more peace.

"All the LEO that had failures" Have you ever considered what that could mean? Do you mean their weapon jammed? Failed to feed? Didn't fire? Because if you are still trying to say that the weapon wasn't able to bring a suspect down with a properly placed shot, then sir, you haven't learned one thing in this thread. It should be absolutely crystal clear by now to anybody that has read this thread that the 5.7x28mm has more than enough energy to reach the CNS on a human through skin, muscle, bone, or body armor. The ONLY way it could "fail" is due to user error or a malfunction in the gun which you NEVER hear about with these weapons. Friend, this isn't my first time around the block on the 5.7 debate. I have read and participated in many, many 5.7 debates and there is always one person that talks about these failures in the line of duty. Nobody has a clue what a weapon "failure" is, and nobody has EVER produced one shred of evidence of a 5.7 "failing" in the line of duty. It's merely an opinion from somebody that preferred his .45 or his 9mm and nothing else. All you have to do is look at your own attitude to know how one might be biased against a new and exotic round. If you want to take the literal (and correct) definition of a weapon failure, you will have to look to other weapons besides the Five-seveN and PS90 to develop a list. It is quite clear even to the haters that both weapons are as reliable as the sun coming up. If you want to erroneously define a weapon failure as a bad guy still coming at you after you shoot him several times then I can provide you with 10 solid pages of "weapon failures" in every platform used in modern police agencies starting with this one: The 9mm and .45 ACP are proven to work well with good shot placement, and they are proven to work very, very poorly with poor shot placement. The unofficial record for "most gunshot wounds survived" goes to a New York man that was shot 21 times by NYPD with the "9mm proven round." http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...j95zaj2xzsUy4K http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Str...01008215680186 A 23-year-old man has dodged death after being shot 21 times by police during a shoot-out at a New York street party. <snip> "I would say more than 20 gunshot wounds is a record," Dr Vincent DiMaio said. "Of course, the real issue is where you get shot. One bullet can kill you, but believe it or not, a body can survive a lot of bullet wounds."

This is a very graphic account of what the SS192 does to tissue in vital areas. I'm wondering if this didn't happen to a lot of people - 5.7mm bullets flying around a room and cutting through cubicle walls as well as people's limbs and penetrating yet more victims. A cubicle wall as well as a human forearm isn't going to slow a 5.7mm bullet very much at all unless it hits bone. A testament to how deadly a weapon, with little recoil, allowing such easy follow up shots, can be. I propose had he used a traditional caliber weapon, that he would have fired much fewer shots in the short time during his murderous rampage. I guess this statement is obvious as there are few if any weapons that can match the FiveseveN's capacity. But, if we temporarily allow equal capacity among all firearm choices, I think the 5-7's recoil would still have allowed more shots fired regardless of the traditional caliber choice. I also think fatigue would have set into his wrist causing his aim to suffer dramatically with larger calibers. 146 shots of .40 or .45 caliber loads in less than 10 mins. is going to affect your aim. What am I trying to prove with all of this? I guess I am just responding to those who would say that we are lucky that Hasan didn't choose a more "potent" caliber pistol. As sick as it sounds, considering the shooters experience, amount of damage intended, short period of time to do it, I say he picked the "best" weapon he could have, short of a fully-automatic smg. Again, devastating bone damage. "I couldn’t get a clear shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire." That's a good thing because she certainly couldn't shoot very well. Her weapon carried 14 rounds (including the round in the chamber) and she missed him with all her shots. She wasn't further from him than 7 yards. The bad guy had the FiveseveN, the good (girl) had the Beretta 9mm. The bad guy was shot zero times from close range, the good girl was shot 2 or 3 times with injuries to her wrist, knee, and leg. It was also reported that her gun jammed as she was falling to the ground when her leg was shattered. Perhaps if she would have been firing the FiveseveN things would have turned out differently for her? Dare I say this against the "vaunted" 9mm Beretta? Officer Todd, the one that hit Hasan in the CNS and crippled him, said he shot at Hasan under fire but there are conflicting accounts of what really happened. In the following article, an eye witness stated that Todd caught up with Hasan after "rounding a building" and shot him while Hasan was reloading his FiveseveN. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us...pagewanted=all It is widely believed that Hasan was shot in the back.

The following quotes are survivor's testimony in Hasan's article 32 hearing. They are public record and available to those that want to do some research. This hearing was discussed on fnforum.net and I have permission from the poster who compiled some of the relevant quotes to post it on here. I have found no copyright issue to exist with the following testimonies. http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/10/14/for...al-malik-hasa/ The head shot he received was only a grazing wound however he still eventually lost sight in his left eye. High-speed 5.7 rounds seem to be especially devastating against hard objects like bones. They usually penetrate instead of glancing off. He was shot in the back while hiding behind a sport utility vehicle? The gun was designed to penetrate. This example is a case in point. This spraying in a fanlike motion is most likely responsible for a lot of the "limb shots" as he was just trying to hit as many people as possible during this period. Another devastating bone shot. Another shot to the bone. This conjures up a very chilling image... The advantage, and in this case tragedy, of a semi-automatic firearm with very large capacity... Bone penetration.

You kind of made a big point for me. The Five-seveN is extremely accurate and flat shooting, very clean (when I clean my gun there is hardly any powder residue), and has very little recoil. If most of those police officers were given a Five-seveN, their scores would improve immediately (which is a good thing for the civilians on the street - bad thing for the thugs), and they would have in their holsters a weapon that has passed the FBI protocol for minimum penetration, the ability to penetrate body armor, and carry a round designed to dump all its energy as soon as it reaches soft tissue minimizing collateral damage. And Blake, I have not invested everything I have in one round/platform. I also own and shoot 7.62x25, 9mm, .357 .40, .45, 10mm, 5.56, 7.62x39, .308, 7.62x54r, .338LM, etc. Nobody has said the 5.7 is taking the hunting world by storm...lol. The point being made is that people are surprised by the damage a little round like the 5.7 inflicts on animals it is not supposed to be able to take down. And no, these aren't all just head shots. I wouldn't say I am desperate - perhaps ambitious is a better word? Being motivated to argue about the efficacy of the 5.7 platform is easy when you have the facts I have. Again, if your eyes are tired of reading the words I am writing.. slowly back out of this thread and do not return. If you have OCD and cannot keep yourself from entering this thread then I apologize. I also want to say I hadn't thought about the restrictions in NJ when I entered this thread. I do not intend to fan the flames of a people who are losing their freedoms daily. I only intended to offer a rebuttal to the High Exposure dude who was approaching the issue obnoxiously.

editing...

Shane, I agree the data is small compared to more common pistol calibers but it is not nonexistent. I think I have provided numerous links to verifiable police shootings with the round as well as its efficacy against animals. I have also provided comparisons between the 5.7 and more common calibers in ballistics tests as well as against animals. Those that have spoken of failures in the line of duty have provided absolutely no verifiable data on their claims.

Of course you entered this thread, so you chose to read what I am typing. You certainly have the choice to leave the thread and never return. But... I'll make a deal with you; I will wait until someone replies to this thread thanking me for the information I have provided. If that doesn't happen I will not post again. So just in case nobody lurking is finding the info I provide helpful and I leave never to return again..... it has been real!

Some of you who are still confused as to how incapacitation actually works in a shooting, I introduce the foremost expert in forensic pathology; Dr. Vincent Di Maio: Now that we're all up to speed on the "size issue", we can apply the opinion of a leading pathologist with four decades of experience to the question that asks, "What is the best gun?" Our answer should simply be, "The one we shoot most consistently accurate under stress." I would also add If I may be permitted, that capacity should play a part in the decision as well as each shot available is one more chance at hitting the "stop" (CNS) button.

I'll give you factual but not glaring.

I'm enjoying the conversation... really I am. I am always ready to learn. It's just that "stopping power" is what is being discussed here whether or not the term is publicly uttered and that concept has been utterly disproved by the best forensic pathologist in the country - if not the world. If you really want to get off on a tangent, ask me why there's no advantage (in stopping an attacker) using hollow points versus FMJ.

I hear ya man. I apologize for the generalization. I was just trying to convey a possible prejudice of imports especially since it seems a large proportion of the gun crowd like to say they buy "American". There is an FN plant in the U.S. though; my Five-seveN was made in Fredericksburg, VA. I don't think it's blind ferver. I'm the guy with the 5.7 file remember? I don't know who you are, and your comments are in the minority based on all my data on the platform (and personal testing). I cannot test the veracity of your "source". There are many reasons why a new weapon would go unused. Irrational prejudice, lack of training, or just set in one's ways. Gun owners are a VERY fickle bunch. The reason we are bumping heads is because the premise of our arguments are different. I am saying that any round with sufficient penetration and energy is going to put a suspect down with proper aim. It doesn't matter if it's a .38 special or a .50 Desert Eagle. It is going to take proper aim. Now, let's say you have a guy that you know that actually shot someone with the P/S90 and the attacker didn't explode when the bullets made contact. You already know my response though don't you....? The P90 is a PDW shooting an armor-penetrating, tumbling bullet at 900rpm with about 400-500 ft-lbs. of energy. It is not unlike taking your favorite 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP and having it shooting out a stream of bullets in whatever direction you aim with almost no recoil. Here is the point I am trying to make: all pistol rounds have failed to stop an attacker... ALL of them. Since we know that the only way you stop a threat is by the threat's own desire to disengage from the fight and/or receiving a solid thump in the CNS, the failures are by and large user error - AKA they didn't shoot straight (of course body armor could have played a role with a traditional caliber but let's assume not for this example). The only way you are going to minimize the occurrence of failures in stopping a suspect with pistol rounds is to increase the accuracy by which the rounds are delivered. You can do that through training, lower-recoiling firearms, higher capacity, higher cycle rate etc. (higher capacity and higher cycle rate won't make you more accurate but do give you more chances to hit the "off" switch on the perp). The PS90 shoots a modified pistol/rifle round at blinding speeds in a laser-like trajectory with hardly any recoil.... AND penetrates the highest rated soft body armor readily available. So I ask you, how is the P90 not a viable option (or the Five-seveN) for that matter. And before you say get a rifle, a rifle must be aimed accurately within reason as well. I can show you failures to stop with just about every weapon short of a 50 BMG. But let's not get side-tracked, I will obviously agree that as you progress up the power scale in rifles, your margin for error is lower. However, it's impractical to outfit all law enforcement and military with a 16" barreled rifle. By the way, how did we get into a debate about law enforcement use... lol I usually just argue self-defense for civilians. Regardless, it is a viable option in several scenarios. Would I sit posted outside a building behind a squad car with a P90? No.. I could, but I would most likely have a full-size AR-15 for that. But if I am moving in hallways with a team or entering buildings in close proximity to my potential target, the P90 seems absolutely ideal based on its capabilities, it's design, and the tests I have seen and/or conducted with the 5.7 round. In fact, as I have stated earlier, SOCOM and the USN Seals use the 4.7x30mm for that very thing. Understand that the MP7 fires a "weaker" round than the 5.7x28mm, has less capacity than the P90, and fires nearly the same cycle rate. So I've got elite forces using PDW's for CQB (could be related to a discussion for self-defense choice in the home) and you've got a buddy that said his department didn't like it. You will understand if I am skeptical of your sources, the circumstances surrounding the report, and the lack of a legitimate source (print). And I have quite a bit of documents on the USSS and their extremely rigorous testing of the P90 before they adopted it. They even publicly criticized Fackler's recommendation that they choose something else. I need to find those articles.. The USSS tests a weapon like no other before they choose it to carry. All these elite U.S. units are wrong and your buddy is right? No offense but.... One man's ugly is another man's beautiful. I actually like the way they look but I kind of go for the "high tech" look anyway. I own very old rifles/pistols and I own high-tech rifles/pistols. I find the high-tech ones function the best for me. They are just a tool anyway right? You don't buy a gun to make a fashion statement do you? As far as a tool, the Five-seveN and the P/S90 perform flawlessly in the field...almost to a fault.

You know what else is funny? Watching people's pistols (especially the 1911's) malfunction at the meet. Mine has never malfunctioned once. In fact, it has never malfunctioned since I've owned it.

I actually do shoot USPSA with my Five-seveN and everybody always gathers around to watch, comment, and ask me for a sample bullet or if they can have my casings. LOL! It's like show and tell. The Five-seveN always draws a crowd at the range. Of course my scores are not official as you mentioned because the round is a .224.

40+ countries. Hundreds of agencies in the United States. Born in a tiny french-speaking town in Belgium. And on my hip every time I leave the house. Wild huh?

I'm well aware of the location of the main factory as well as the cultural makeup of Belgium. Are you aware that FN is located in the small city of Herstal, near Liège the French-speaking region of Belgium? Hence Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal (French for National Factory of Herstal) Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre (French for National Factory of Weapons of War. It's not a stretch for someone to call it a "French company". 1911's have been around for over a hundred years. The .40 S&W was developed off of a 10mm cartridge by S&W, Winchester, and the FBI. The 5.7 was developed by some Frenchman..... IN BELGIUM. By the way, our local police department recently switched out from .40 back to 9mm because the officers couldn't hit shit with the .40. The women officers were complaining about the .40 as well. Glock supplied them with 9mm for a song. Had they switched to Five-seveN's they would have really seen their target scores skyrocket. Economic failure? Hmmm, you and I must have different definitions for economic failure. Last I saw the 5.7 products were priced at a premium with regards to the materials used to produce them. I believe the Five-seveN costs a few hundred dollars to produce and sells all day long for 1,200.00. Economic failure? Surely you jest... Gathering dust? How is that possible when they are always out of stock... everywhere? The second they come in at my local Cabelas they sell out. You are mistaken sir. Demand is high... especially considering it is a fairly unique imported caliber. The gun itself is terrible? lol? I don't really shoot handguns or shoot them very well? I could most likely shoot you under the table with my 5.7. That's not saying much though.. the Five-seveN makes an amateur shoot like he/she is a non-amateur. For a longtime shooter of the 1911, the safety would indeed seem bizarre, but after careful consideration, one must come to the conclusion that the placement is genius and very intuitive. Draw the weapon with your trigger finger indexed (as you should) and your finger lays directly on the safety. That is not a dumb design. It is a new design, but it is not dumb. Of course the safety is ambidextrous for either hand. Another --not dumb-- feature. The bottom line is this; the Five-seveN is an exotic weapon, it is strange to the old-timers who are used to their trusty 1911's. It shoots a high-speed, technologically advanced bullet which is hard for somebody that has been launching flying ashtrays their whole life to understand. People generally don't like change. The Five-seveN pistol is certainly not the replacement for all calibers, it simply is another effective option in self-defensive choices and perhaps a window into the future of ballistic technology - smart bullets.