SpeedKillz

Good God I'm like a posting machine. Forgive me, I haven't gotten into one of these 5.7 "discussions" in a year or so. I just HAD to share this guy's performance with his PS90 with you all. Here's the link http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=724032&page=2 He set a freaking record in the high-power rifle sporting class with his PS90... ROFL

Hey, here is something cool I dug out of the 'ol "5.7 file". Look at a guy take down a big ass hog with his PS90. He was using a fairly potent EA trident round. This is a biiiiig hog. I think he gets it with the first shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mSybzWHC00

The price of the weapons are dropping like crazy. Now is the time to buy the weapon, the ammo will come down later. PS90's were going for 3 grand 6 months ago. Now you can buy them easily for 1,200. SS197 was going for 17.00 per/50 nine months ago, now it's more like 25.00 if you know where to look. The price will come down.

If I'm bumpin' around in the sandbox engaging targets beyond 200m I want an AR15.. hell give me an AR10. But if I'm working with a small group knockin' down doors and searching houses, I would be perfectly comfortably with a P90. I could carry TWICE the ammo of 9mm for the exact same weight. Perhaps that's why there are some specialists using P90's and MP7's in the very situation I just described... They better be hosin' 'em down though amiright? GOOD GOD this forum has a lot of emoticons. I think it's certainly a record...

Watching that video a bit more closely, it looks like he puts about 15 rounds into the cinder block. I assume he is using the low-power SS197 frangible sporting round, probably the worst round you could use against rock. Now, take a look at what other common pistol calibers do to a cinder block. Pistol calibers that are used daily against bad guys around the world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eD1REUPVbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeJaERHOlKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acAKTglhgzY Here is a video of a PS90 in semi-auto fire using the SS197 sporting round (V-Max Frangible tip) against cinder blocks. Six shots breaks it in half. Not bad for a 40gr frangible round. Do you think even this low-power practice round would stop just under the skin and on top of a rib? EL OH EL..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4qCVqKJ490

I'm familiar with most of the contributors in that link especially the Military Arms Channel dude. He put out a laughable demonstration of the PS90 against a water jug using frangible ammo. When the round grenaded shortly after the first jug his "expert" analysis is that the platform fails to penetrate adequately. What he didn't understand is that high velocity frangible ammo behaves very differently in water jugs compared to tissue simulant. In short, he was a nub and got thoroughly worked over in some forum last year for it by people that know a lot more about the 5.7 than he. If he had been using SS195, SS198, SS190, or some of EA's non-frangible ammo, the result would have been very different. As far as the comments by the other people; we had the "hose them down" comment again made by a person with no experience with the 5.7 and apparently little understanding of terminal ballistics. You aren't going to stop anybody with anything short of a .50 cal if you are "hosing" them down. You might get lucky, but you are going to have much better luck aiming center mass and firing short bursts at the CNS. Hosing down.... SMMFH.... And the story about the dept. that "got rid" of the P90's in a hurry after poor performance is another unverifiable account. It sounds like the Jacksonville Florida farce where the guy was reportedly pleading for the SWAT to "stop shooting me with that thing". I have the original link to that shooting and it happened nothing like the Interwebs report. Look, I understand the hesitancy to adopt a platform made by the French. In fact, when I put it like that my stomach kind of turns as well. But there is no mistaking that the P90 is a legitimate choice for CQB situations for a multitude of reasons. It is currently used by over 40 countries in the world and hundreds of agencies in the U.S. It was and is being used by the U.S.S.S. for many years now and they do testing like no other agency. They can't all be stupid. Now, let me direct you back to the previous video and I want you to watch it as unbiased as you possibly can. Go to the 2:00 mark and imagine one or two guys firing on a suspect in close quarters. Now imagine it not dropping the bad guy with shooters that have decent aim. Okay, even if they were "hosing" a guy down rofl. Now, go ahead to the 2:25 mark and look at the cinder block that was reduced to powder. Again, what do you think the effect on human tissue and bone would be? Do you think it would be like the esteemed dentist (Doc Roberts) who routinely (and proudly) recycled the fable of a user who fired on a suspect with a P90 using SS190 (31gr mil. round w/ steel penetrator tip) ammo and the round barely penetrated the skin coming to rest on the ribs?

This thread was supposed to be about the pistol.. oh well. Watch this video of what looks like an 85lb kid shooting a P90 full auto. Now imagine if he was shooting an SBR's AR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn-avyWm4B4 There's something to be said about that kind of controllability. It's not for everyone, and sure it doesn't replace other rifles at greater distances. But the platform is no joke and if that kid had been aiming center mass at a bad guy, the bad guy would have had a freshly installed zipper. I need to add this one as well just for giggles.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbk7UqLiOFM Pay close attention around the 2:00 mark. Then realize that buddies of High Exposure have said that a P90 used in a shooting only penetrated the skin and failed to break a rib. Also realize that buddies of High Exposure have publicly stated that when a bad guy in Florida was shot with the P90 he started yelling that he would surrender if only they would stop shooting him with that thing. Yes, I know... hilarious...

The guy was an animal for sure. I think you can get a LEO discount on the PS90 for around 750.00 right now if I am not mistaken. I will agree that the P90 was designed for special applications, but I disagree on the conclusions you are making about its usage considering its lifespan. 20 years is a fraction of the time most other pistol calibers have been in use. Considering the fact that the ammo is made BY ONLY ONE COMPANY that holds several patents on the design, it seems wildly popular to me. 40+ countries and hundreds of agencies in the U.S. is not scarce when you consider that production is limited to one Belgian company. According to a report from FNH a year or so before the panic, "10's of thousands of Five-seveN's PISTOLS" are sold in the U.S. each year (I never heard a number on the PS90's). Now that isn't in the Glock 17 territory, but it isn't anything to sneeze out either. That figure was only limited to the U.S. so that isn't including worldwide sales. In a nutshell, the 5.7 is a long way from a bust considering how new and specialize AND EXPENSIVE it is. I don't know about abdicating, but I can read on my own and the energy numbers on SBR AR's are around 900 ft-lbs., and some of the hottest 5.7 ammo approaches 700 ft-lbs out of the PS90. When you consider the muzzle flash and noise coming from an SBR AR and the relative stealthiness out of the PS90, there is more to discuss here. Now, I am talking about the PS90 here which has the longer barrel. The P90 has a 10.5 inch barrel so the energy gap will widen a bit. But for self-defense and civilians who are considering a PS90 or an SBR AR for home defense, the PS90 makes a LOT of sense unless you want to be deaf and blind in your home God forbid you have to shoot your carbine indoors.

I certainly had a "coming to Jesus" when I first shot the pistol. It felt amazing to me in every way. After doing some serious research and testing of my own, I came to the conclusion that this was the caliber for me.

Yeah, I collected data points over the years regarding the caliber. I wanted to sift through the B.S. and decide for myself what the gun could really do. It's a fairly new platform relative to others so for a while there was always new stuff coming out. I can assure you if I was a prospective 5.7 purchaser and someone came along like me and dumped all this info for me to read and decide for myself, I would be eternally grateful. In fact, that is where I found most of this info, from 5.7 owners that were far more experienced than I at the time.

If you'd like to know what I carry loaded in my Five-seveN, watch the following video. It's a helluva lot more potent than factory stuff. Skip to 1:35 for the ballistic gel and body armor penetration tests. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxBFtilO_C4

A person could go on and on about what they heard from this guy or that but the only actual credible accounts of shootings with the 5.7x28mm would be: - The Fort Hood shooting, which is very well-documented now (see some of the first-hand accounts, such as the one I posted below). - A handful of U.S. SWAT shootings like the one that was described in the Houston SWAT writeup on the P90 (by a 28-year veteran of HPD). - Dozens upon dozens of news reports on shootings (mostly fatal, and mostly done with the Five-seveN pistol, aka "matapolicias") from the Mexican Drug War, and nearby countries like Colombia and the Dominican Republic. The news accounts from Mexico are supported by crime scene photos showing 5.7x28mm casings and/or the deceased victims themselves (many of those are graphic so I won't post them here). All of the shootings listed above clearly indicate that the 5.7x28mm is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers. The hearsay on this caliber that appears on internet forums is always completely unsubstantiated and unverifiable; people have been recycling these stories for years now, and you still can't trace them to anything more credible than vague posts on an internet forum. As for the Fort Hood shooting, being armed does not make an individual impervious or magically resistant to bullets; the wounds (and their effects) are not different. As for "fleeing," the soldiers at Fort Hood were highly motivated during that attack, one way or the other; all of them were very intent on surviving and helping others survive. Many of the victims described feeling the effects of adrenalin during the shooting. Two of the victims even charged the shooter with chairs (according to the trial testimony, both were killed with shots to the chest before they could reach him). The female police officer that responded to the shooting was also intent on stopping the shooter but by all reports, was incapacitated (and nearly died) by her leg wounds. The bullet shattered her femur into "hundreds of bone fragments" according to her personal comments on her blog, as well as other news sources. According to her blog, she subsequently underwent a complete knee replacement operation and she won't be able to do patrol work anymore. All of this information is corroborated by a number of witnesses including Munley herself, on both her blog and in her trial testimony. See: http://sgtmunley.blogspot.com/ I was given a second chance at life. I was also fortunate to not lose my leg. The awesome surgeons were able to do an arterial graph and repair my femoral artery. But for a couple of days, there were unsure about the outcome and if I was going to be able to keep my leg at all. I stay in a lot of pain because the bottom of my femor is blown into hundreds of bone fragments that are pushed into my muscle tissue and until the surgery, they will not be removed.

I was digging through my 5.7 file and found some more interesting stuff: The following discussion was mostly by P.M. from a guy I met on a gun forum. Notice they are using the SS197 (blue-tip) which is a 40 grain target practice round. The defensive round I carry in my pistol has many times more energy and penetration than SS197. Here is another more recent account of a 5.7 owner that had some experiences to share:

In case anybody is interested in the increasing prevalence of bad guys with body armor, here is a comment posted by a guy over a year ago.. most of the links should still work...

Cool ass gun is an understatement. If you shoot it you will be hooked. The more I have trained with my Five-seveN, the more I have found the design to be genius. The safety - which causes first time handlers pause - is extremely intuitive and becomes second nature with just a little practice. It aligns perfectly with the indexed finger. Go to a range and rent one and shoot it. Then make your decision. As far as the debate is concerned, it really comes down to a personal decision. If you are concerned about the gun's "stopping power". Read up a little on Dr. Vincent Di Maio, the foremost expert in forensic pathology in the country. He will make it clear to you what bullets can do to the human body. Stopping power was widely embraced by the bullet manufacturers as a way to sell you their magical bullets. The solution to achieving "stopping power" against an attacker is really quite simple; adequate bullet penetration and impacting the CNS. Only until you start getting into the larger rifle calibers does importance of aim start to lessen. FYI he was recently hired as an expert witness in the Trayvon Martin case. I believe the average shots fired in a typical self-defensive shooting is 2-3 rounds. But that doesn't mean there aren't self-defensive shootings that required more bullets. Same goes for body armor. Body armor is still quite rare with thugs, but it is becoming more and more frequent. Speaking of protracted gunfights. You just reminded me of a guy that was using traditional capacity mags and wheel guns and had to go through half a dozen guns in his shop during a protracted gun fight. You might remember this video. What a great, great story! He would have definitely benefited from having my 5.7 at his disposal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w It's kind of a silly argument though to say most gun fights only involve a few rounds so why not just carry a revolver. I think it is human nature to want to prepare for the worst thus having 21 rounds makes you feel better than having 5.

Here's the proper link on that Sandy Wall article. http://webcitation.org/5yoK5IoX4 Airsoft... lol

”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their game and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.” Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm: quote: ”Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications. If there is a single reason why these platforms are in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.” Just a couple comments on the oft repeated OPINIONS of Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb on the 5.7: These two individuals have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings) -- their opinions have been formed by what they have read or heard about.. hardly an "expert" opinion worth repeating. If you want to take someone's word for how a weapon performs in a shooting, perhaps you should start with somebody that has actually used the weapon in a shooting. That removes a lot of the misinformation and agendas that often are accompanied with a platform someone doesn't like. Here is a verifiable account from an expert in the field who has been involved in a REAL shooting with the P90: http://forum.rap4.com/index.php?topic=3699.55;wap2 I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon. <snip> The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. <snip> If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready. -- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below) http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -wall.html Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger." By the way.... read the following quote again Have you ever heard anything more idiotic and fictional in your life? "hose the suspect down", "sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso"??? LMFAO That whole statement flies in the face of any legitimate tactical methodology much less an understanding of forensic pathology. The main advantage of the 4.5 or 5.7 is the immense speed AND ACCURACY of which you can deliver a round. Why on God's green earth would you "hose down" a target with a gun that has no recoil? You aim center mass, depress the trigger for one second (that's 15 rounds flying like a laser at your POA) and watch the bad guy drop. A shot to the CNS is a shot to the CNS. Why do you think all the specialists in the sand box say they love the 4.6? It's because they can run in a house and drill a bad guy in the head or chest in a fraction of a second with half a dozen rounds or so - dropping the bad guy before he even knows he's hit. It's all about accuracy, speed, and controllability with these weapons. The comments about "hosing down until the brain figures out", "running out of bullets" (the P90 carries 50 btw) sound like they were made by an amateur, or a child, or both. Certainly someone that has played a bit too much Call of Duty with little or no real life CQB.

Yeah, most of the stuff was just copy/paste so it might seem kind of convoluted with regards to authorship. Nevertheless it is all factual and easily referenced (with a little googling if the links are dead). Now, the multitude of quotes are obviously just personal accounts with the weapon. Alone they would be rather worthless, but in number they start to form a pattern don't ya think? It was by chance that I stumbled upon this forum while searching for something 5.7 specific. I haven't participated in a friendly 5.7 debate in a loooong time. It seems like the hardcore detractors, who almost seem to be on a religious mission to defame the platform, have become extinct. They have been made to look foolish and desperate in the past so many times I think they've finally given up. Then you have to take into consideration the enormous popularity of the platform over the last few years with every 5.7 weapon selling out everywhere until the prices have become insane and the ammo has all but dried up. There really isn't much left to say on the 5.7, the market has clearly spoken. Now, as soon as ammo supply catches up with all the new 5.7 owners, we can all be happy again. Do you know that several types of high-performance 5.7 rounds I have in my possession were going for upwards of 10.00 a round a few months ago? Craaaazy. Again, don't let my facts of the 5.7 cause you to believe that your 9mm or .45ACP is now obsolete. All common pistol calibers are good choices for self-defense... well... that is... unless you come up against body armor. Then nothing compares to the Five-seveN - period. The good thing is, while there are hundreds of reports of criminals using body armor over the last couple years, it wouldn't be considered commonplace yet. There are other advantages of the Five-seveN that no other pistols shares and that is capacity coupled with weight. I literally have walked out of the house without my gun in my holster it is so light. That is an amazing fact when you consider that the Five-seveN is about the same size as a full-size 1911. It's so light it feels like the gun is missing something. When you conceal carry for long periods of time and enjoy having your pants around your waist and not your ankles, the Five-seveN is an excellent choice. I know I sound partial to the 5.7 pistol - and I am. The longer you own this thing (I have been carrying mine for over 2 years), the more you understand how "perfect" it really is. Everybody has a gun they love, but the Five-seveN is unique for a lot of reasons. Are you trying to bait me into disparaging the good tooth docs name? Did you hear that he has left his forum where he has been protected all these years against public challenges to his hysterical logic on the 5.7 platform? I wonder what happened... perhaps the doc became too insane for the asylum? Seriously though, this guy has well-documented issues with the 5.7 and they aren't rooted in science. I won't repaste all the info on his ludicrous behavior in the past with regards to the 5.7; like his loony and desperate comments right after Fort Hood that were almost immediately proven false much to his embarrassment, or his continued citation of data on the 5.7 involving a prototype round that is almost 20 years old and never went into production, or his lack of "finding the time" to test new 5.7 ammo he has been given for free............ "Doc" just doesn't like the 5.7 for his own personal reasons (probably like you) and that is fine except for the fact that he attempts to portray himself as a ballistics scientist which of course would require unbiased practices and the scientific method as the cornerstone of his testing. Both of which he fails to employ when it comes to the 5.7. Probably the best data we have on the 5.7's effectiveness against human targets is the horrific Fort Hood tragedy. I have volumes of data and personal testimony from the people involved in that tragedy showing the 5.7 performed nearly exactly the same as other pistol shootings recorded in the FBI database EXCEPT for one thing... the immense volume of fire that Hasan was able to rain down on his victims. Volume of fire is the 5.7's forte'.

i'm probably done posting in this thread unless somebody has some legitimate specific questions about the caliber. I have a massive repository of data on it which has been collected over the years convincing me that the 5.7 pistol is just as good - if not better - when you consider armor penetration, than all the other common pistol calibers. Remember, a pistol should only be used until you can get back to your rifle. There are no pistol (or rifle for that matter) death rays. To drop (see: stopping power) an attacker, a shot must be made to the CNS or he/she must choose to give up the fight. The human body can withstand many shots of all pistols (and many rifle) calibers - including shots to the heart. Anybody that tells you that a .45 is better than a 9mm, or this caliber is better than that caliber in STOPPING a threat, should immediately be labeled an Internet Commando and the rest of what comes out of their keyboard should be taken with a grain of salt. Anybody with experience in live shootings and forensic pathology understand well that what kills the body and what immediately stops the body are not one and the same. Only one thing will immediately stop a threat; a shot to the CNS which requires aim (or lots of shots), and sufficient penetration. As far as what can kill someone; those possibilities are endless and really of no concern. What is of concern is what the attacker does to you after they receive the fatal injury, and before they bleed out/pass out. No caliber can solve that dilemma. It all comes down to shot placement. So, chose a pistol you feel comfortable with and that allows you to make the most accurate shot possible. For me the Five-seveN is the most accurate gun I have ever shot and is the fastest gun I have ever shot accurately multiple times in a row. it's basically a laser. Also, the fact that I carry 21 rounds and have the ability to defeat any soft body armor in existence gives me just a little bit more confidence. Stay safe.

Just a few inches of penetration huh? LMFAO! You are obviously a troll, there is no way you could be that ignorant on purpose. There are numerous 5.7x28mm loads currently available that penetrate 12+ inches in ballistic gelatin. For example, this random handload expanded and penetrated 14-15 inches in three tests done by Brassfetcher in calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin: http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3271/shot0301.jpg Considering FN limits the power of factory ammo because of its armor-penetrating characteristics and all the "Cop-Killer" hub-bub, aftermarket ammo is where the 5.7 really shines. You can buy 5.7 ammo that reaches 405 ft-lbs and 2,600 fps out of the pistol or 670 ft-lbs and 3,400 fps out of the PS90. That ain't your grandaddy's 22WMR.. I carry my Five-seveN concealed and loaded with S4M. A little info about the S4M round: It was the general opinion of three physicians-two military surgeons with oversea deployment and a trauma surgeon who operated on roughly a thousand gunshot wounds, that nobody could survive an S4 torso hit unless it took place right in the operating room- and even then it would be at best a toss up." -Dr. JD Brown As tested, both 5.7x28mm cartridges offer lethality that is on par with or slightly greater than a .45ACP 230gr jacketed hollowpoint. This is accomplished through an intelligent usage of the pitch/yaw cycle inherent to any spin-stabilized projectile – the nose of the 5.7mm bullets travel through the first 2” of ballistic gelatin in a nose-forward orientation, which minimizes drag. As such, the very impressive amount of kinetic energy lost by most expanding bullets in the first few inches of penetration have little or no effect on the human target and actually decreases the effectiveness of expanding ammunition in incapacitating a target. Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested .45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective 27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers. -Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing

Every forum has its own Armchair Operator. It appears that High Exposure fills that role here. I won't be long in this thread, but I feel compelled to correct a bit of misinformation being spewed about. The follow is just some data that I have saved. I really don't have the patience to organize it all. Some will be redundant. Regardless, it is more than enough to disarm the witless local Armchair G.I. Regarding use in the field: Columbia, MO cycle officers are issued both the Five-seveN and the P90. There are quite a few large departments using either the Five-seveN or the P90; most of them in SWAT-type roles, yes, but the fact remains that quite a few large departments use the weapons on a somewhat regular basis. Wikipedia lists users for the Five-seveN and P90: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Users http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven#Users Note that there are reference lists, and external sources are cited for each individual user in the lists, so the information isn't unsourced. http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...cal-firepower/ S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division. “I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.” http://web.archive.org/web/2002090301424...4c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver) http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail829.htm (Summary: Sioux Falls, SD police officer with a P90 shot a man in the arm through a bedroom door and he dropped his weapon and surrendered) The best known case involving U.S. police would still be the aforementioned shooting in Houston, TX, which is supported by the article from Sandy Wall, who noted that the SS190 bullet performed well (as confirmed by autopsy) and compared its performance to a 9x19mm 115-grain JHP +P+. The Five-seveN/P90 are currently used in 40+ countries and by hundreds of law enforcement agencies in the United States. - The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident. - Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find. - The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either." - Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation. - Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons. - Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived. - I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there." - Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject. - I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything. http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1442 Swat units as well as SF units around the world use the 5.7 FN weapons. They see some value in the round.

Is that urban legend still circulating? LOL!! Here is a 2003 Florida Times-Union article on a Jacksonville shooting with the P90. To give everyone some background, it is frequently claimed by detractors that the P90 performed poorly in shootings with Jacksonville SO SWAT. In some of the more absurd stories, it's claimed that the subject was shot 50 times and that he said "stop shooting me with that thing". Of course, none of these details are claimed in this news article. Instead, it says the subject died after being shot 15 times and there is no indication that he fired back at SWAT after being shot. The SWAT officer most likely fired one burst (at 900 RPM, 15 shots is a one second trigger squeeze) or a series of short bursts. Regardless, the subject was stopped and no one else was harmed. A search of the website doesn't bring up any similar incidents. Here is the article for your information: http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072403/met_13102142.shtml The 33-round Glock magazine is much, much larger than the 30-round Five-seveN magazine. If you have trouble carrying a Five-seveN with a flush-fit magazine, you will have much more trouble carrying a 33-round Glock magazine, even as a reload. A 30-round Five-seveN magazine is relatively easy to carry because it's hardly larger than the standard magazine, and it's still extremely light (a loaded 30-round Five-seveN magazine weighs less than a 17-round Glock magazine). The Glock 17 empty w/ magazine: 25 ounces The Five-seveN full (20 rds) w/ magazine: 26 ounces Per news reports, most of the wounded were shot in limbs and other non-vital areas of their bodies. A fatality rate of about 30% is average (or above-average) for handgun bullets in shootings across the nation. There is no reason to think the exact same results would not have been produced with a 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP pistol. See, for example: http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-06/justi...ent?_s=PM:CRIME Two men were arrested Sunday in connection with a shooting that left an Ohio university student dead and 11 other people wounded, police said. <snip> The shooting happened at a house where members of the Omega Psi Phi fraternity were holding a party, Hughes said. <snip> Authorities found multiple shell casings from two semiautomatic handguns, one a .40-caliber and the other a .45-caliber, Hughes said. Officer Munley returned fire before being hit, but she did not hit the killer. Her Beretta eventually jammed. The damage to her wrist came from shrapnel off a round that struck a nearby rain gutter. She was hit with bullets a total of two times -- once in the thigh and then once in the femur. This is not to demean her efforts in stopping the killer, but she was actually lying on the ground badly wounded when a second police officer, Sgt. Mark Todd, stopped the killer ambushing him from around a corner. Munley was already fading out of consciousness when medics reached her - she almost died from blood loss. The killer was eventually hit 5 times with 9x19mm, by the way, and he survived. The 5.7x28mm bullet that hit Munley's femur knocked her to the ground, and the killer walked up to her and knocked her pistol out of reach. The bullet shattered her femur (the strongest bone in the body) into "hundreds of bone fragments" according to her comments. All of this information is corroborated by a number of witnesses including Munley herself, on both her blog and in her trial testimony. Munley underwent a knee replacement operation and she won't be able to do patrol work anymore.

This is more like what I hear about people that have hunted with the very relatively low-powered (compared to what you can buy from EA) factory SS197 round. It does a LOT more damage than what they were expecting. When analyzing the effects of 5.7x28mm rounds on living tissue it requires one to actually see the effects on tissue, not just make a prediction based on grain weight, velocity, and energy. You have to understand the bullets behavior when impacting flesh at a certain speed. In the SS197's case, the 40gr ballistic V-Max round has shredded a lot of game over the years. Here are a few more second-hand accounts of the 5.7 used against game: Two weeks ago I came across a half dead deer on the side of the road, coming home from the range. I used the five seven to put the poor thing down, and the head/neck wound was probably the most gore I have ever seen besides fresh roadkill. I have no doubts to the lethallity of this caliber, seeing as one round of SS197 made such a graphic fatal wound on a living animal, where a round nosed bullet from the same distance could have potentially bounced off the skull. Lightweight, very dependable, low recoil, high capacity, accurate, low maintainence and very easy field stripping. How are these bad things? The first one I shot I hit 2 times right off the bat,(straight into the side) missed with 2 and then put about 4 more in. It was not moving away from me after the first 2 (it was moving in kind of a circular out of control movement), but I was rapid firing so I killed dirt with shots 3 and 4. Shots 5-8 were all over it The 2nd hog was a headshot (from the side) with round one and the next 4 were all hits in the side and then belly. It didn't move after the first shot. These were both medium sized ferral hogs shot at dusk using the laser and the light on the M6. I normally hunt with a Russian Nagan and a .45 Baby Eagle. The weekend I got these I had forgotten my Nagant ammo so decided to try something different. Glad I did...It was a freaking blast to hunt hogs this way. I always laugh when people badmouth the Five-seveN.... I have seen what it does to flesh, and it's definitly something to have respect for. The cool thing is I have also shot squirrel with it and it just leaves a little hole with ss192. A gun that you can realistically hunt hog and squirrel with is one kick ass gun indeed. Now, some are curious as to the wound pattern. In the Squirrels, it's just a 5.7 hole straight through. In the hogs broadside it's a small entrance hole and a nasty cavity, but as you would expect the round stays in. How deep depends on what it hit. I didn't get exactly surgical so I can only tell you that the couple we looked at (one we actually cut open which unfortunatly for me was a gutshot that was just ugly as hell) were pretty impressive and about what you would expect from a .223 really. Honestly, in larger animals it ends up similar to, but below a .223, but the round stays amazingly unhurt. I actually have one round that was inside one of the hogs that we picked up a few months later in the spot where it rotted and aside from the rifleing it looks like you could stick it back in a shell and refire it. Interesting though, as I was walking the 2+ miles back to my truck I stepped in a hole and sank up to my calf. The ground felt kind of strange and started to move. Something seemed to bite into my sole. Sensing that something was TERRIBLY wrong I pulled my foot out of my boot just in time to watch something furry and loud pull my boot underground. I went to the hole and was rushed by a 20 lb badger. I opened up with the 5-7. First round took the top of the skull off. I dug out the hole and found several more badgers. I shot them all in the hole (SD law alows Badgers and other varmits/predators to be shot essentially at will) and then cut them open to see the damage. It looked like a bomb went off in them. To see what a .45 +P+ would do, I shot one in the flesh around the shoulder. Blew it out the back. However the wound channel was not as impressive as with the 35 & 40 V-Max, probably because the badger was not thick enough for the 230grn hollowpoint to expand enough. The .45 just made a really clean hole through and through. I was unable to find much of either weight V-Max (just little pieces here and there, most still in the badger, depending on angle of entry). In my opinion I think this round has GREAT possibilities for varmiting. I can't wait for the rifles to come out for it. That's what the gutshot in the hog looked like. It was just nasty...everything was mushy and shredded. I now feel comfortable enough to carry my Five Seven full time. I quantify the effectiveness of cartridges by how they kill critters. I hunt with a lot of different handguns on a lot of different critters. My favorite critter for testing handguns is Javelina. I've shot them with 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, 357mag... You can shoot two a year in Texas and where I hunt they are plentiful. I shot one a couple years ago with my 5.7 using SS197. It chrono's out of my pistol at 1760fps. The Javelina I shot was at 60 yards. It moved as the shot broke and hit it in the left hip ranging forward into the body cavity. It went down with a broken hip but with the front end still up, so I shot it again behind the left shoulder penetrating the chest and off side shoulder. The little pig was dead quick. The bullet crossing the chest boiled the lungs and cut off the top of the heart. Pretty nasty wound. It weighed about 45 pounds so not a big critter, but the performance was at least as good as any 9mm I've used. This bit of info isn't about hunting but does offer some more data on the round that a lot of people have had success hunting with - the SS197 V-Max. I will outline my test here - 5 frozen gallon jugs of water at approximately 8 meters distance. Shot with 158 gr. 38 special, 124 gr 9x19mm, 180 gr. 40S&W, and lastly 40 gr SS197 5.7x28mm. 38 spc - passed through with very little visible shock and basically a single channel 9mm - through with a decent amount of shock 40S&W - rather serious amount of visible shock and large exit hole 5.7mm - I wish I has photographed it. Essentially, complete devastation from shock of nearly the entire block could be seen. Unlike any of the other rounds.

The Five-seveN pistol is the lightest, highest capacity pistol you will probably ever fire. It has a huge muzzle blast, is as loud as a 10mm, and always gets attention at the range. While the factory ammo doesn't tap the full potential of the Five-seveN, it has proven to be more than enough to take down humans as well as medium-sized game. Recoil is quite a bit less than 9mm, 5.7 ammo weighs 50% less than 9mm, and with an inch and a half mag extension you can have 31 shots at your disposal. Fast and accurate follow up shots is the Five-seveN's ace in the hole. Considering FN limits the power of factory ammo because of its armor-penetrating characteristics and all the "Cop-Killer" hub-bub, aftermarket ammo is where the 5.7 really shines. You can buy 5.7 ammo that reaches 405 ft-lbs and 2,600 fps out of the pistol or 670 ft-lbs and 3,400 fps out of the PS90. That ain't your grandaddy's 22WMR.. I carry my Five-seveN concealed and loaded with S4M. A little info about the S4M round: Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested .45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective 27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers. -Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing Since pictures are worth a thousand words, and no discussion of terminal ballistics is complete without something being terminal; have a look at some animals that were released from their corporeal existence thanks to the Five-seveN pistol: The 160-pound hog in the first two pictures was dropped with one round of SS197SR (not sure about the hog in the third picture). The 182-pound deer in the last picture was dropped from 70 meters with one round of SS197SR through the lungs/heart. -- ("8pt 182 lb shot with fn5-7 at 70 m, with burris fastfire. ss197 ammo went through ribs to expand and take out both lungs and heart ...instant kill!!!!) More hunting data... anyhow Rifle season for deer opened up on sat. i was working so i missed sat but i made it out on sunday. nada. well monday was the charm. i got a medium doe with my PS90. 35-45 yards away. used SS197. shot her in the chest. double lung. she walked 10-15 paced and that was it. i found the round just under the skin on the opposite side. it had also passed through her shoulder. it missed her ribs and other bones as far as i can tell right now then as i was cleaning her, a medium buck walked by. i used my new (got it friday the 18th) Colt 45 special combat govt. i used my reloads. 230gr JHP rounds. he was 30-40 yards away. again, a double lung shot. he walked about 12-15 paces and died. i could not believe that while i was cleaning one another walked on by. now for the fun part. i have not found the 45 acp round yet. it passes through and may have hit the flat part of his shoulder. i found a very small exit hole in his outer fur. the holes on the inside of the rib cage were not all that big. the 5.7x28 round was a different story. it passes through the body cavity and through the muscle of her shoulder. it stopped just below the skin/fur. the hole on both sides of the rib cage were 2-3 times bigger than the 45acp holes. the 5.7 round holes were probably like 2-2.5 inches in diameter. i shot a couple of quick snaps and used a quarter for size. the holes are 9 o'clock in one photo and 11 o'clock in another...between the ribs photos here: http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723 i found three pieces of the SS197 round. i found all three pieces in roughly the same spot. a very interesting day. i will get more photos after we get the skins off. i will get better measurements and see if i can find the 45 round. please see these photos for the measurements of the 3 pieces from the 5.7 round. http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723 eddie