FedUpWithNJ

Answer the question: what's your point?

Yeah, I've read it. What's your point?

Yeah, I complied. I can't afford to be a felon. But I am not running around accusing people of fear-mongering when they point out the consequences of active enforcement of the new law. Is it Stockholm syndrome that makes you do this or something else? I am genuinely trying to understand.

He's doing whatever he is told to do by his political masters. This forum has really opened my eyes to why NJ is the way it is. So many apologists for state encroachment on our constitutional rights.

Maksim is desperately trying to prove that he is the oracle now and forever for which NJ laws will be actively enforced. I get that LEOs and attorneys chiming in here have a vested interest in pretending no abuse of the law ever happens, since their livelihoods depend on the rest of us rubes having at least a grudging respect for the judicial system. But I don't get Maksim's obsession since by his own admission he no longer lives here.

What's your point? They have records on precisely which handguns have ever been legally purchased in NJ since the permitting requirements were enacted. Just because they don't have all the records doesn't mean they have no records. My city has about 5,000 distinct addresses. I'm guessing less than 10% of the current owners at those addresses have purchased handguns here. Even if the records are not entered into a database, that's a trivial search for my local pd. Given the political will (such as after a mass shooting in which an "evil" high capacity magazine was used), it's not at all unlikely that in order to be seen to be "doing something" Trenton would insist on such searches.

Dude, you claimed the police have no records of what guns I own. You were 100% wrong. They know exactly what handguns I own. I pointed out that some of those guns (the Glocks in particular) shipped standard with 15 round mags at the time. Not to mention the fact that they can probably just ask Glock which magazines that particular gun shipped with. Give it up.

I never said the police are GOING to come for me. You keep claiming this but you're simply wrong. My handgun permit says plain as day: Serial number: XXXXXXX. || Caliber: 9mm || New || Make: Glock || Model: 19 Gen 5 And then in the bottom right corner: "Within 5 days after date of transaction the seller is required to provide a copy of the permit to the following: WHITE COPY: Forwarded to the Superintendent of State Police YELLOW COPY: Forwarded to the Issuing Authority" The issuing authority was my local pd. So the state and local police do indeed have a record of "exactly what I own" (your words). Now, as I pointed out, they can't be 100% sure that I have a 15 round mag, but I bet they can ask Glock whether that serial number shipped with 15 round mags or simply assume that it was purchased with a 15 round mag since that was by far the norm at the time. No, I gave a very plausible scenario under which the ban would be pro-actively enforced. Think about what you are so desperately arguing: the legislature, the administration and the courts in this state have been actively suppressing our second amendment rights for the better part of half a century. They finally get to pass their signature legislation further infringing our rights yet you believe there are no circumstances under which the new laws will ever be enforced pro-actively. That's asinine.

Buy more guns. Buy more ammo. Goto 1. Joking aside, I will continue to contribute to NRA, ANJRPC, NJ2AS and look out for other 2A societies I can join. All suggestions on that front welcome. I will continue to train my children in the use of rifles and pistols, and take non-shooting friends and family to the range as the opportunity arises. I also hope to find ways of contributing directly.

The difference is the last two statements are simply false whereas the 15 round mag ban is now the law. Up to 18 months in jail and a $10,000 fine per offense. Just because you say L/E are unlikely to proactively enforce the ban doesn't mean they won't, particularly given the increasingly anti-gun sentiment in NJ. Laws are laws and can and will be used for political reasons if expedience demands it. Just imagine if someone shoots up a school or a mall with an illegal 15 round "high capacity" mag and the media go nuts when they find out local police could have done something about it. Do you think Weinberg, Murphy or Grewal would hesitate in pushing for more proactive enforcement? I don't.

No, the argument may be unlikely but it is certainly not baseless. When it comes to guns, NJ courts readily ride roughshod over constitutional rights and common-law precedent on a daily basis. Read NJ V Pelleteri for starters. Your entire argument relies on the courts not going just one step further and also skirting the 4th amendment. It's been done and it will be done again. Just pray you're not on the receiving end.

I already explained modifying - time. Selling - same: not worth my time. The money is not the issue. I had already bought replacement 10 round mags when the law passed. And I do not have an out-of-state friend to send to. I moved to the US as an adult for work and stayed for the freedom. Look, I am under no illusions as to the irrelevance of a forum post, but my view in writing this was precisely the opposite of your interpretation. I agree that rusted-on gun grabbers will no doubt be delighted that I destroyed my magazines. But I hope it shows more moderate folks how pointless and invasive laws like this are.

Oh, I see. You think compliance is capitulation. Not so my friend. This post was a form of objection. That was the motivation. Read it again. As for other forms of objection - I do my bit to spread the word, donate to the legal fights, raise my kids as strong 2nd amendment defenders, etc. I plan to be more directly involved in future as time permits.

No, I am fighting an actual injustice that L/E may or may not choose to enforce. But they surely would if directed to from on-high. Now, I don't disagree that it is unlikely. But if you told me there'd be a risk of courts overturning mens rea for inconsequential gun law infractions, I also would have been skeptical. Yet they did. You seem to have an issue with Nappen. This has nothing to do with him. Highlighting the worst-case scenarios under the legislation forces the politicians to respond and is effective in mobilizing opposition.

You think so? A lot of people seemed pissed at those of us who object and would prefer that we just shut up. Sheds some light on how NJ ended up here.

As in, "comply meekly as your constitutional rights are eroded". I may have no option but to comply. I have no intention of complying in silence.

I know my local police chief personally, so why would I engage in a dickish move like that? He doesn't agree with the ban any more than I do. There actually wasn't an easy way to turn them in, otherwise I would have taken that route. You were required to notify your local police chief in writing, and find a mutually agreeable date and time on which to hand them over, all in advance. Easy for you to advocate non-compliance. A conviction means loss of the right to own firearms everywhere forever, not to mention loss of livelihood in my case.

Trust me Sniper22, I won't be extending you any invitations to join me at the range, so no need to worry about being around me when I am handling firearms. But since you asked, vice -> sawzall -> grinder -> dead mags took all of 5 minutes. And yes, since I have never blocked a mag before, it would have taken considerably longer to collect the materials, tools and research to perform the task properly, and hence not worth my time. But for a man such as yourself who is an instant expert on all subjects without training or research, I can understand that the calculus may be different. Although that said, instead of wasting your time blocking mags, surely it would be more lucrative for you to be acting the leading role in the latest blockbuster hollywood movie or unifying the fundamental laws of physics instead?

There's still time. I guess they may reserve the right to refuse purchase of your 22 pallets of pmags. Then you'll be stuck trying to unload them yourself

Exactly. Replacing the 6 15s with 10s was around $150 iirc. Blocking the 6 15s: $30 in blocks + $5 in other materials + about 2 hours labor (guessing) + frustration + risk of screwing one or more up and having to buy 10 rd mags anyway.

If you value your time at $0. Not worth it for me.

If it is some poor black kid from Newark whose 4th amendment rights are being violated, I agree. But a middle-class white guy from a better neighborhood? There'd be a shit-ton of political mileage to be had before it gets anywhere near SCOTUS.

2. and 3. That's the point. They have reasonable suspicion but not reasonable suspicion to search because of the 4th amendment. That's the only thing that stands between you and a politician that wants to make an example of you in order to boost his/her reelection prospects. So now you're relying on the same judiciary that threw out mens rea with respect to gun law violations to uphold your 4th amendment rights with respect to search? Like I say, you could be right, but I would not be at all surprised to see a case go the other way.

No-one said the NJSP are about to kick in doors. The facts are: The NJ legislature and judiciary have repeatedly demonstrated their hostility to NJ citizens' second amendment rights, and at best indifference to our first amendment rights. NJSP and local police have sufficient information on many of us to have more than a reasonable suspicion that we are in possession of 15 round magazines. Gun control is a political winner in NJ, and hence gun owners are an easy target for a politician looking to boost their popularity. Against that you're relying on the same anti-second- and anti-first- amendment judiciary to have a backbone and stand up to the legislature on the 4th amendment? I hope you're right but it's certainly not fear-mongering to suggest otherwise.

How does the fact that you own two guns about which the police have little information contradict the fact that I own two guns which the police have > 99% certainty shipped with 15 rd mags? The fact that so many gun owners in NJ seem to be willing apologists for the state as their rights are whittled to nothing explains a lot. No, I am not Nappen, and I've never had anything to do with him. I even looked into the US Shield thing that he is involved in a while back and concluded it was a borderline scam. All opinions are my own.