have a 9mm Sig P226 (last year of the German made ones)

Is German made better than others?

 

Not necessarily, but for Sigophiles,the W German/German made ones are more desirable.

 

In the P226, the originals up to about '95 or so, had a folded sheet metal slide w/ a firing pin block (not a firing pin safety block, but rather a piece of carbon steel that held the firing pin group) held in by a roll pin. When production began in NH, they went to a milled piece of forged stainless steel slide with the firing pin group milled into the slide. I've read that this was done to give more corrosion resistance to the pistol as requested by the SEALS. Whether this is true or not, I don't know. Also, the older ones were known to have a finish that was not the most durable and you'll read about Sig's rusting. In theory the stainless slide sounds great. I've shot some of the newer P226's and, at least from the samples I've fired, there seemed to be more slop in the slide to frame fit vs. the older German ones with the sheet metal slides. Does this affect accuracy, I don't think so. It's more of a pride thing for the owner. The older sheet metal slides have this feeling of finesse that the newer ones are missing.... at least in the few that I've shot. If I wanted a full size .40, I'd go new P226 or P229 in a heartbeat, as I think these 2 pistols are the nicest/most comfortable shooting .40's I've fired. In 9mm, I'd hunt down an older one.

 

Other things....

 

I read a thread that's currently on AR15.com that concerns the quality of late model Sigs. I was very surprised to read that the guide rods are sporadically coming in plastic vs. metal. The braided recoil spring has sporadically come as a single nonbraided spring. It seems there is an effort to cut corners for cost. This is also reflected in the now 1 magazine that comes w/ the pistol and the cheaper case. I recently looked at a railed P228 that only came w/ 1 10 round mag vs. the 2 13 round mags it should come with. I very recently read though, that Sig is back to 2 mags. Also, I was very surprised to learn that the former CEO of Kimber is now Sigarms (Sig America). This concerns me as I've read I don't know how many stories of Kimber's lack of QC.

 

If I didn't have to have a brand new Sig, I'd opt for a CPO (Certified Pre Owned) model or hunt an older one.

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks, rauchman.

was very surprised to read that the guide rods are sporadically coming in plastic vs. metal. The braided recoil spring has sporadically come as a single nonbraided spring

Just another thing I need to look out.

I'd opt for a CPO (Certified Pre Owned) model

Never heard such thing for guns. Who certifies them?

Sig does CPO models. 1 year warranty on them.

If I didn't have to have a brand new Sig, I'd opt for a CPO (Certified Pre Owned) model or hunt an older one.

 

I agree 100%. I have a CPO Sig P226. It is an older German model without the rail. At least in my case I can vouch for the quality as mine looked almost brand new when I got it. In fact my gunsmith actually asked me if I shot it much, if at all. This was after I had put over 1000 rounds through it. I think the CPO program gives you good value for your money.

After reading rauchman reply, I went on AR15.com read about the problem reported by the people brought new sigs within a month. Sig is off my list for now. I would have bought one if I found a 226 with night sights.

That is a shame about Sig now. I love mine, There is always CZ.

There is always CZ

When I hold a CZ, I have to reach for the trigger. It seems to be further away from the grip.

try the SP-01. The trigger was redesigned because of your complaints with the 75.

After reading rauchman reply, I went on AR15.com read about the problem reported by the people brought new sigs within a month. Sig is off my list for now. I would have bought one if I found a 226 with night sights.

 

Don't short change yourself by totally dropping Sig from your list. Granted, with brand new factory models, there are potential QC problems. Again, going w/ a CPO or used model might work for you, in addition to saving a couple hundred $. If you are in a gun store and see a Sig with a blue stripe around the grip, this is a CPO and they generally run in the $600+ range vs. the $800+ range of new ones. I've seen them at the Bullet Hole and Meltzers. Last time I was at the Bullet Hole (month or so ago) they had a couple of used P228's. This gun is on my short list to buy. Kind of like a Glock 19 to the Glock 17, the P228 is a more compact version of the P226. AFAIK, all P228's are German made and still use the sheet metal slide. The P226 I own was purchased used in '99 or so. I sent it to Sigarms and they replaced all springs for free. The P226, as w/ most P models, are hell & back reliable, extremely easy to shoot very accurately, mags can be gotten relatively cheaply from CDNN, and have arguably one of the best DA/SA triggers out there.

 

Having said that, the CZ is a great handgun as well. I bought a CZ75B SA in .40 back in 2000 or so, and it is a tack driver. Back then, I paid under $400 out the door (including tax and NICS) from Bullet Hole. Incredible deal at the time. They have gotten considerably more expensive since then. I was shocked to see they are running in the $600+ range now.

If you are in a gun store and see a Sig with a blue stripe around the grip, this is a CPO and they generally run in the $600+ range vs. the $800+ range of new ones.

I thought the blue stripes are for the new ones. At least the new one I saw, at bullethole, have blue stripes. Maybe different blue?

the glock feels like a 2x4 to me.

 

I'll never own a Block for the same reason. I can't connect with that grip.

 

I have a G22. I didn't like shooting it till I put a Hogue grip on it. I sill didn't like the .40 cal recoil. I put a 9mm barrel in and now I love it. CZ 75 does have a nice feel to it though. If anyone wants to shoot it I should be at the Bullet Hole Saturday. Especially if you have a Sig 226 I've been dying to try one.

the glock feels like a 2x4 to me.

 

I'll never own a Block for the same reason. I can't connect with that grip.

 

I have a G22. I didn't like shooting it till I put a Hogue grip on it. I sill didn't like the .40 cal recoil. I put a 9mm barrel in and now I love it. CZ 75 does have a nice feel to it though. If anyone wants to shoot it I should be at the Bullet Hole Saturday. Especially if you have a Sig 226 I've been dying to try one.

 

 

should of bought the CZ the first time. 8-)

I went through a few Glocks before I found my latest, a G34 (i.e. tactical longslide) in 9mm. This size fits my hand perfectly. My previous guns never did quite fit right. The Glock has a wide and long grip. The 21SF and 20SF are slightly narrower than the standard version, but not enough to make a significant difference if you have stubby fingers like me. One positive aspect of the grip width is that it spreads recoil out more evenly across your hand. I have fired full 10mm loads in a Glock and in a 1911. There is a huge difference. The Glock is much softer.

I thought the blue stripes are for the new ones

 

Sig changed the color designation a while back. The band could be either color depending on when it was sent out.

 

As for the changes, most of the experts posting have never owned one and yet are an expert. Having friends in Customer Service at the plant it's amazing what some complaint about. One owner insisted on returning a handgun that he declared faulty because when he tried to chamber a live round in his home, it did not go into battery. Never firing the firearm, he wanted it returned. Some see marks on the extractor and send them back. If they knew the handgun, the marks determine in which firearm and caliber the extractor is used.

 

Plastic guide rods???? My God, they can't work.Wait, doesn't Glock, S&W, Springfield and others used them in some models? Yes they do. The springs were changed because in some calibers they were a problem. the multi-strand springs were used originally in the extremely cold European climates. A single strand has served the 1911 series, S&W first through third gen SA and others. some just want to complain and found some will listen to anything on the Internet. The best case was the claim the 220C was faulty. Thousands were shipped and worked fine. A few had a problem and the ball started rolling. It was historical to see so many who never actually saw one commenting on their lack of reliability.

I have a G22. I didn't like shooting it till I put a Hogue grip on it. I sill didn't like the .40 cal recoil. I put a 9mm barrel in and now I love it.

Are you using lone wolf?

 

Could be the case when people pay more then they expect more. But if you google "Sig problem", then you get a lot of hits. If you google "CZ problem", then you get very few and the ones you get usually say "no problem". Of cource it may because CZ owners do not complain because the only responss they would get is "you got what you pay for"

CZ was the sleeper of the gun world for a while and you got more than you paid for. Then they cought on because we could not contain our hapiness and every one likes them now. So the price went up.

CZ was the sleeper of the gun world for a while and you got more than you paid for. Then they cought on because we could not contain our hapiness and every one likes them now. So the price went up.

The $1000 question is which one is the next sleeper?

whatever it is, it is a firearm currently on sale in europe or outside of the USA. Anything produced here is already selling for a higher price.

 

heck...

 

CZ's = Czech

XD's = Croatian

Wunder Plastic Fantastic = Austrian

Baby Desert Eagles = Israeli

 

I would look to EAA for the stuff they are importing. but in the rifles world.. Saiga. =)

 

A few years ago, before saiga was even heard of, they made Baikal shotguns, brother picked his up for like $260, side by side, great trap gun. Last I saw used, in the mid 400's to 500's.

Check out a Stoeger Cougar in 9mm.

Check out a Stoeger Cougar in 9mm.

Looks like CZ, specially the trigger. Why can they just copy 1911 trigger

I thought the blue stripes are for the new ones

 

Sig changed the color designation a while back. The band could be either color depending on when it was sent out.

 

Didn't know this, good to know.

 

 

As for the changes, most of the experts posting have never owned one and yet are an expert.

 

Never claimed to be an expert. But do own Sigs, have shot many Sigs including newer ones. Have not shot any post 2006, so can't comment on them.

 

Plastic guide rods???? My God, they can't work.Wait, doesn't Glock, S&W, Springfield and others used them in some models? Yes they do.

 

No argument that the plastic guide rods work. However, they won't last as long as steel. To me it seems to be a cost cutting measure that takes away from the quality of the gun.

 

The springs were changed because in some calibers they were a problem. the multi-strand springs were used originally in the extremely cold European climates. A single strand has served the 1911 series, S&W first through third gen SA and others. some just want to complain and found some will listen to anything on the Internet.

 

Interesting. Do you know which calibers were affected by the multistrand springs? It would be interesting to know, since between my buddy and I, we have/had multiple Sigs in 9mm, .40, .45, 357 Sig, and have never experienced a problem related to the recoil spring (buddy had a trigger spring go on his P220). Sig was known for outstanding attention to detail in their engineering, the multistrand spring to counter the extreme cold being one of those details. By not putting in that spring, along w/ a metal guide rod and who knows what else, it brings the Sig down a notch. I'm sure they still work fine, but in my mind the Sig name is losing its luster as compared to what it once was. It starts becoming more in line w/ the more main stream brands and has less of that mythical status that was once shared with HK. Again, all these things add up to cost cutting and take away from the allure of the Sigs of old. Sort of like having a BMW w/ Chevy parts in it. As I mentioned, the CPO models are worth the money. It is a question in my mind as to whether the newer ones are worth over $800 new. For that money, I'd easily get an HK and be very content with that purchase. Having said that, the idea of a P228 railed, P229 Elite and/or P220 Match does stir my loins.

I have a G22. I didn't like shooting it till I put a Hogue grip on it. I sill didn't like the .40 cal recoil. I put a 9mm barrel in and now I love it.

Are you using lone wolf?

 

Yes I am. Lone Wolf Distributors 40-9 conversion. I guess I could have just gotten a G17. I wanted something with more umph for home defense at the time.

Anyone shoot the Sig 250? Curious how it stacks up to the 220 line.

Anyone shoot the Sig 250

 

They are a totally different animal. It has a polymer frame with a removable frame. The feel is totally different as the 250 felt much narrower and lighter than the 220C. Cost is also much less on the 250 series.

 

As far as the complaints of Sig vs. CZ, the numbers Sig has out on the market far exceeds CZ. Odds are more might have a negative comment just based on the numbers. Or some just like to bit*h so they can join in. When it is a major issue simply because a company changes the box the firearm comes in then I think some people have nothing better to do with their time.

Yes I am. Lone Wolf Distributors 40-9 conversion. I guess I could have just gotten a G17. I wanted something with more umph for home defense at the time.

 

According to their website

Notice: About 1% of our 9mm conversion barrels are affected by the poor performance of Winchester White Box (WWB) and/or Remington (UMC) 115 grain ammunition and may fail to extract reliably.

 

Do you have to avoid these ammo or they are OK for your G22?

I have a G22. I didn't like shooting it till I put a Hogue grip on it. I sill didn't like the .40 cal recoil. I put a 9mm barrel in and now I love it.

Are you using lone wolf?

 

Yes I am. Lone Wolf Distributors 40-9 conversion. I guess I could have just gotten a G17. I wanted something with more umph for home defense at the time.

 

Cool setup!!! Did you have to change out the extractor for the conversion?

Yes I am. Lone Wolf Distributors 40-9 conversion. I guess I could have just gotten a G17. I wanted something with more umph for home defense at the time.

 

According to their website

Notice: About 1% of our 9mm conversion barrels are affected by the poor performance of Winchester White Box (WWB) and/or Remington (UMC) 115 grain ammunition and may fail to extract reliably.

 

Do you have to avoid these ammo or they are OK for your G22?

 

I don't know about the G22, but I have had problems shooting WWB 115gr 9mm out of my G17. Zero problems when shooting Blaser ammo. I think the WWB is loaded a little light for reliable operation in some guns. Had the same problem shooting WWB .40 out of my CZ75B SA. Again, no problem w/ Blaser. I also find the Blaser more accurate than the WWB. IMHO, WWB is definitely on the lower rung of the ammo ladder.

, they won't last as long as steel.

What are you basing that on? It isn't a highly stressed part. Based on Glock's experience, the rod will last for years. Even so, it will outlast some of the springs that require changing and will probably outlast the recoil spring. Even if it does break, it will not necessarily affect the firearm's operation. Years back everyone said the poly frames wouldn't last and here we are twenty years later with those same frames still functioning fine.

 

Do you know which calibers were affected by the multi strand springs

The one group was from a 225 in 40S&W. They were replaced and no further problems were noted. Single or multi-strand makes no difference to me. I have semi-autos in both styles and they all work. Just because a manufacturer changes a spec everyone seems to make a ton of unsubstantiated comments.

 

mythical status that was once shared with HK

 

They are now made a few miles away by basically the same employment pool on the same machines. Sig can keep everything the same and raise their prices up to where S&W went with their third gen. right up to the point of discontinuing the entire line. there is a point where people will stop buying. Sig is no more expensive than the other quality alloy/steel framed firearms. Do you know of any manufacturer that doesn't change any parts over the years? None keep things the same as vendors change, availability changes.

 

newer ones are worth over $800 new. For that money, I'd easily get an HK

You can get a new H&K handgun for less that $800? Not from what I've seen. The going rate starts at $800 and goes up from there. Pricing is almost the same for both manufacturers.

+1 on the hk. the new ones in stores, the cheapest I have seen is mid $850's. and reaching well over 1k for the hk 45's etc.