***DELETED***

11 hours ago, Xtors said:

Not sure why they are doing things differently from other towns 

Because this is Jersey and nobody has their shit together.

1 hour ago, NorthernYankee said:

That's for RPO not for everyone else...a lot of us used those ranges in the beginning just to play it safe since they were the only places offering quals but since then we have realized that the RPO course is not needed

Ah, I see. "RPO".

1 hour ago, samiam said:

The good news is that it looks to me like Roberts has pretty much lost his influence over the other justices. There doesn't appear to be any formal documentation of the powers that the "Chief Justice" wields, it seems to be more of a consensus of the other justices recognizing leadership, and my peception is that recognition has shifted in Clarence Thomas' direction, title or no. Which is perfectly fine with me. I'm withholding judgement on Kavanaugh, I think he may still be a work in progress. The other good news is that Amy Coney Barrett has jumped right into the middle of things and appears to me to be doing a creditable job. 

Kavanaugh is a gone case. Nowhere is it clear than his first paragraph..  He severely limited Bruen impact.

 

On 8/25/2022 at 9:11 AM, g17owner said:

Yes, it is the 4 digit municipal code.

I wouldn't photocopy anything regarding the application. With all the waiting involved with this burdensome process, I wouldnt give any excuse to reject and then have to start back at square one.

I agree. I was on the Gun For Hire website too, they have very good information there too.

5 minutes ago, dino71 said:

I agree. I was on the Gun For Hire website too, they have very good information there too.

Yep. I qualified 2 guns at GFH and 2 at RTSP. 

The GFH qual is more difficult but it's the police qualification which goes out to 25 yards.

One thing the detective in my local PD told me when dropping off the application is that the instructors certification number should be on the qual letter. It was there for the GFH letters but not for the RTSP letter. He also said that doesn't necessarily mean the qual letter wont be good, there's just too many unknowns and who knows who will look at the letter. For that matter, RTSP may have started adding the instructor's certification number to the letter btw. But I was there early on.

But I would say that the GFH site can be counted as a trusted source. They've also had numerous people already receive their permits.

6 minutes ago, g17owner said:

Yep. I qualified 2 guns at GFH and 2 at RTSP. 

The GFH qual is more difficult but it's the police qualification which goes out to 25 yards.

One thing the detective in my local PD told me when dropping off the application is that the instructors certification number should be on the qual letter. It was there for the GFH letters but not for the RTSP letter. He also said that doesn't necessarily mean the qual letter wont be good, there's just too many unknowns and who knows who will look at the letter. For that matter, RTSP may have started adding the instructor's certification number to the letter btw. But I was there early on.

But I would say that the GFH site can be counted as a trusted source. They've also had numerous people already receive their permits.

Since you qualified two (2) hand guns did you have to take the firearms qualification test twice?

Burlington county prosecutor responded to the email I sent yesterday. They have reviewed and approved my application and they are sending back to the judiciary today. (Was sent to prosecutors office 8/15 from the courts). So yeah. Progress. 

 

Deleted Duplicate

Edited August 26, 20224 yr by NorthernYankee
Deleted Duplicate

12 minutes ago, g17owner said:

Yep. I qualified 2 guns at GFH and 2 at RTSP. 

The GFH qual is more difficult but it's the police qualification which goes out to 25 yards.

One thing the detective in my local PD told me when dropping off the application is that the instructors certification number should be on the qual letter. It was there for the GFH letters but not for the RTSP letter. He also said that doesn't necessarily mean the qual letter wont be good, there's just too many unknowns and who knows who will look at the letter. For that matter, RTSP may have started adding the instructor's certification number to the letter btw. But I was there early on.

But I would say that the GFH site can be counted as a trusted source. They've also had numerous people already receive their permits.

Yeah the certification number caused me issues too my LPD said that quals needed the number on it and when i pointed out to them that they were referencing the old form they approved it.

Long story short on the 2nd version(v1) of the "Permit to Carry" instructions the NJSP had certification number in there.  They removed that on 3rd version(v2), It originally said "Instructors Name and Certification Number" and now it just says "Instructors Name and Certification".

4 minutes ago, dino71 said:

Since you qualified two (2) hand guns did you have to take the firearms qualification test twice?

I qualified a total of 4.

2 @ Gun for Hire

2 @ RTSP

At both places, the qual session was an hour. For the first half, you do the one gun, and then if you have a second gun like I did, you stay for the remainder and go through the exact same qualification process.

37 minutes ago, CJack said:

Kavanaugh is a gone case. Nowhere is it clear than his first paragraph..  He severely limited Bruen impact.

 

Agree. Kavanaugh is garbage. Worried about ACB as well. They could have stopped the Biden Presidency and completely blew it!

List of required expenses to practice our "rightvilege":
$150 - Qualification cost, on average (I spent $350 to do 4 guns)
$25 - 1 box 50 rounds for qualification (I went through 4 boxes for 4 guns)
$56 - Identogo fingerprints (I spent $96 due to out of state fee)
$50 - Treasurer, State of NJ
$30 - Notary + Photos (I realize this can be done cheaper, this is what was charged at GFH)
$1.65 - Money order fee
----------------------------------------------------
$312.65 on expenses to exercise our rights. Not to mention, we need to repeat every two years.

Optional expenses:
$50 each additional gun
$25 per box of practice ammo, assuming you want to practice
$4 per FBI Q target for practice
$25-$30 per hour for practice range time

Potentially required expenses:
$ lost by taking off of work if court hearing required
$ spent on fuel to travel to the hearing
$ spent on lawyer to attend hearing or appeal an unjustified denial
$$$ pyrotechnics permit and trapeze rental for use during qualification

I have seen successes won through legislative bodies and courts in other states where the financial burden to exercise 2nd amendment rights (and other rights) has been so great that it inherently discriminates against low income Americans. I do think the state of NJ falls well within this kind of situation. I don't think any other state (maybe NY or CA but I truly dont know) comes anywhere close to this kind of financial burden to get "permission" to exercise a right.

Am I leaving any expenses out?

9 minutes ago, g17owner said:

Am I leaving any expenses out?

Photos, and notarization fees (the latter sometimes included with the qualification or without charge through a bank).

Travel costs for running all over to get all of the pieces in place.  Possibly lost work time to travel out of state for fingerprints, and/or to appear before a judge.

6 minutes ago, 10X said:

Photos, and notarization fees (the latter sometimes included with the qualification or without charge through a bank).

Travel costs for running all over to get all of the pieces in place.  Possibly lost work time to travel out of state for fingerprints, and/or to appear before a judge.

Good call. Updating

***DELETED***

9 minutes ago, samiam said:

Unless I'm missing something about SCOTUS decisions, it is the majority opinion that is binding, not concurrences?

Cornell Law School - Legal Information Insitute - Wex - concurring opinion

"...Concurring opinions are not binding since they did not receive the majority of the court’s support..."

Correct. Concurrences and dissents may be cited as dicta but they’re not binding precedent. 

9 minutes ago, RadioGunner said:

Correct. Concurrences and dissents may be cited as dicta but they’re not binding precedent. 

The "only" opinion that matters is the majority opinion signed by the majority of justices. The only order that legally counts is the actual order at the very end of the document. It's generally a sentence or two and is laser focused on the actual question before the court. The other stuff is "dicta" and does not hold the force of law. However, dicta is strongest in the majority opinion and is cited in future arguments before the court because it is the legal and logical basis of that decision. So technically the "sensitive area" dicta doesn't have the force of law, it is instructive per Justice Thomas for lower courts when deciding upcoming cases. Likewise the dicta on how to use text and history obviously has no force of law, just look at what NY did with its new set of 2A laws. NY and other hostile states will need to be dragged to court and then new precedent will be established. We all know common sense says these laws fly in the face of Bruen but it will take a federal judge to slap them down.

 

1 hour ago, g17owner said:

List of required expenses to practice our "rightvilege":
$150 - Qualification cost, on average (I spent $350 to do 4 guns)
$25 - 1 box 50 rounds for qualification (I went through 4 boxes for 4 guns)
$56 - Identogo fingerprints (I spent $96 due to out of state fee)
$50 - Treasurer, State of NJ
$30 - Notary + Photos (I realize this can be done cheaper, this is what was charged at GFH)
$1.65 - Money order fee
----------------------------------------------------
$312.65 on expenses to exercise our rights. Not to mention, we need to repeat every two years.

Optional expenses:
$50 each additional gun
$25 per box of practice ammo, assuming you want to practice
$4 per FBI Q target for practice
$25-$30 per hour for practice range time

Potentially required expenses:
$ lost by taking off of work if court hearing required
$ spent on fuel to travel to the hearing
$ spent on lawyer to attend hearing or appeal an unjustified denial
$$$ pyrotechnics permit and trapeze rental for use during qualification

I have seen successes won through legislative bodies and courts in other states where the financial burden to exercise 2nd amendment rights (and other rights) has been so great that it inherently discriminates against low income Americans. I do think the state of NJ falls well within this kind of situation. I don't think any other state (maybe NY or CA but I truly dont know) comes anywhere close to this kind of financial burden to get "permission" to exercise a right.

Am I leaving any expenses out?

So in two years it's going to cost you another $300+ and all the running around and jumping through hoops? It's almost not worth the effort. And $150 just to shoot at a paper target for one hour!

Here's the NY Qualification that was just released...interesting

 

 

FINAL-NYSP-DCJS-Minimum-Standards-for-Firearm-Safety-Training-8-23-22.pdf

6 minutes ago, jmrdmd said:

Here's the NY Qualification that was just released...interesting

 

 

FINAL-NYSP-DCJS-Minimum-Standards-for-Firearm-Safety-Training-8-23-22.pdf 194.65 kB · 1 download

While I wish people would do this kind of training on their own accord, their own choice, the amount of time and money one must invest into these requirements is unduly burdensome, and as mentioned earlier in this page, it inherently discriminates against low-income New Yorkers.

28 minutes ago, jmrdmd said:

Here's the NY Qualification that was just released...interesting

FINAL-NYSP-DCJS-Minimum-Standards-for-Firearm-Safety-Training-8-23-22.pdf 194.65 kB · 4 downloads

That is bizarre.  Looking over the syllabus for the classroom training, I don't think it is humanly possible to speak slowly enough  to hit the minimum 16 hours of required classroom time.

Then there is two hours of range safety training, again requiring a glacially-slow pace to actually fill two hours.

And at the end of that, the actual firing qualification is only 5 rounds.  From the ready position.  No holster.  No strong hand/weak hand.  No time limit, go as slowly as you want.  From 12 feet.   Hit a 25" x 11" piece of paper with 4 out of 5 shots, and you've passed.

It kinda reads like the classroom and range safety sections were written by someone who didn't believe civilians should be granted carry permits, and the qualification section was written by someone who believed you shouldn't have to qualify at all, but had to write something down just the same.

 

2 hours ago, dino71 said:

Since you qualified two (2) hand guns did you have to take the firearms qualification test twice?

Different instructors are handling this differently.  As posted here a dozen times by as many posters, the instructor is certifying that you are "Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns" and that is done through "test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor" NJAC 13:45-2.4.

Some instructors want to see you shoot each firearm separately.  Some are saying that if you certify with a striker fired semi auto, you clearly know how to operate that type of firearm and will allow you to list other firearms of the same type that you own on the same form.  Some are even more lenient in what constitutes a "type".

It is fairly transparent why NYS released their training requirements all of a sudden. During the arguments for a case against NY's new Bruen response laws it was noted that NY as of Sept 1 would have zero guidance on training and that that training would only be released in April of 2022, so months of effectively no one being able to meet the training requirement because it wouldn't exist. After that statement was made to the court, the next day magically NY releases this. 16+ hours to only shoot 5 rounds from 4 yards where only 4 need to hit paper… This seems like an attempt to save that training requirement from an injunction.

This was posted by the lawyer who argued in court against the new NY laws:

Quote

What changed is that I told the judge that the guidance was that it was going to be April before training guidelines would be out. Then voila, these come out the next day.

 

2 hours ago, samiam said:

Unless I'm missing something about SCOTUS decisions, it is the majority opinion that is binding, not concurrences?

Cornell Law School - Legal Information Insitute - Wex - concurring opinion

"...Concurring opinions are not binding since they did not receive the majority of the court’s support..."

This is definitely whole another thread, but the concurrences tell you where the particular justice draw the line, how they influenced the majority opinion and what is about to come in near future.

Well I just got my permit...there were 4 other people picking theirs up at my PD...so of the 25 that appeared in Gloucester county yesterday 5 were from Harrison Twp

10 minutes ago, NorthernYankee said:

See court order? Good god. So you have to have a copy of the 'court order' with your license?

8 minutes ago, NorthernYankee said:

Well I just got my permit...there were 4 other people picking theirs up at my PD...so of the 25 that appeared in Gloucester county yesterday 5 were from Harrison Twp

Congrats.

No offense but try to send in a better photo next time, put on decent shirt and smile. You look like an inmate.

If you ever take down a mass shooter at a food court you want to look good on the news.

 

I never understood the point of having a fingerprint on an ID card, but whatever, having the card issued at all is cause for celebration.

The guidelines for passport photos don't allow smiling.  It took my wife a couple of tries to look sufficiently unhappy to have her photo accepted.

***DELETED***