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I assure you all, there is no hidden agenda on my end.

I am not qualifying/certifying anyone for CCW and I’m not associated with any school, range, or training company. I don’t want anyone’s money or business.

That being said, as part of my job I have been teaching folks that carry guns for a living for 20 years. From absolute newbs to proficient gunfighters it has been part of my job to qualify them and train them to win a gunfight and protect others. I have also been taught by some of the absolute best in the world in a variety of topics relating to firearms and teaching adults new things.

When I recognize nonsense, I will tell you all that’s what it is. Take it or leave it - I have no skin in the game.

I absolutely hate when bad TTPs or info gets passed off as “valid”.

So, whether it’s relying on a trench knife in one hand with a 1911 in the other for home defense, the idea that using a WML is useless, or stuffing mags on the clock as a valid stress training technique - when I hear bullshit, I’m going to throw a flag.

Be Good
Stay Safe
Get Training 

We all need to be assets not liabilities.

Vet your instructors and vet those that post on the internet.

Be confident in your abilities and act accordingly. 

On 7/27/2022 at 12:38 PM, Combat Auto said:

I did my Qualification shoot this morning...The shoot was a lot of fun, fast and furious, we shot 35 rounds in less that 10 mins, one person said 7 mins don't know if he actually timed it...It was all SD distances out from 3 to 10 yards, lots of 1-handed, one head shot. Fast and furious, barking out commands for the various mini-drill one after the other, no stopping, we were required to reload not only mags into gun but stuffing rounds into mags all on the clock...It was a total HOOT! Haven't had that much fun shooting since I gave up USPSA competition a few years ago.

Ugggh!  I'm signed up to qualify at Shooters next week.  Considering canceling and finding another venue.  Just not interested in some guy yelling at me while I'm shooting.  There shouldn't be a qualifier at all since it's all constitutionally protected...  Not crazy about instructors, who I would wish were pro 2A, adding unnecessary requirements to the qualifier shoot to make exercising a right even more cumbersome.  We're all grown ups.  Let's just agree that these infringements suck, shoot whatever course is required, and go home with as little hassle and wasted time as possible. 

Can anybody recommend a range that does that?  Keeps it simple, shoots what's required, no added fluff, no fancy tactical drills, and I go home with signed papers?

23 minutes ago, maintenanceguy said:

Ugggh!  I'm signed up to qualify at Shooters next week.  Considering canceling and finding another venue.  Just not interested in some guy yelling at me while I'm shooting.  There shouldn't be a qualifier at all since it's all constitutionally protected...  Not crazy about instructors, who I would wish were pro 2A, adding unnecessary requirements to the qualifier shoot to make exercising a right even more cumbersome.  We're all grown ups.  Let's just agree that these infringements suck, shoot whatever course is required, and go home with as little hassle and wasted time as possible. 

Can anybody recommend a range that does that?  Keeps it simple, shoots what's required, no added fluff, no fancy tactical drills, and I go home with signed papers?

It would be worth your time and effort to drive 2 hrs up to GunforHire in Woodland park.  You know it will be right .

I did Shooter's a couple weeks ago with RLEO Paul and it was nothing like you describe. Calm, orderly very professional. 30 rounds on a FBI-Q target 5, 7.5 and 10 yards(10 at each) Only "reload" command was because of 10 round limit on our mags. With 2 mags you reload one once for the course. Afterwards you fill out the firearm section of the form and Paul reads off the serial numbers and signs off on your certification, makes a copy for his records and you're done. 

14 hours ago, Combat Auto said:

There are hidden agenda's here, people are selling courses and looking for customers and of course are going to be biased to the methodology they are selling...Pick a Qualifying officer that suits your SD lifestyle and beliefs and go for it. If you think getting "tested" at 25 yards is adding value to what you are already doing at the range, go for it...If you think doing something which involves more stress at overwhelming statistical "civilian" SD distances whould add more value to whatever you do now at the range go for it. Just by luck yesterday, the latter worked for me (as I already shoot 25 yards every time I go to the range)...Or maybe pick a venue which offers both of some...

The important thing is to make your own decision, rather then listen to self proclaimed experts "wispering" in your ear on the internet as to what is best for you.

With that I take my leave, it has been nice, I'll be back next time we have a once in a lifetime ruling from SCOTUS which has emancipated us by giving us the ability to reclaim a freedom we should never have lost. And maybe create even (more) gun related business opertunities in NJ - LOL!

Good luck on your qual, I would expect most on the NJGF will do well wich ever approch they take.

It has been fun,

Adios Amigos!

10 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:

Can anybody recommend a range that does that?  Keeps it simple, shoots what's required, no added fluff, no fancy tactical drills, and I go home with signed papers?

I agree with your points regarding the necessity of having to shoot a "qualifier" before exercising a right.  Kind of like asking people to pass a test before voting.

With that said, it's the law of the land, so if the ranges that participate in qual's want to keep their certification, they have to abide by the law.

I took the course at Shooters and I didn't mind it at all.  The "shouting" was just so people could hear the commands.  It wasn't like a ranting drill sergeant running back and forth shouting at you to "hurry up maggot!!!".

In the classroom the RO explained the commands he would use, and he explained them again in the range before shooting started, so there really wasn't any confusion about what you were supposed to do.

Keep in mind that Shooters is the most cost-effective option I've seen referenced thus far, so factor that into things as well.  If you want to mitigate the reloading issue at Shooters just show up with 5 loaded magazines.

I think this thread has descriptions of several different courses of fire at other ranges, so pick the one that's most attractive to you.  I would have used GFH but I was in South Jersey for a few days so I went to Shooters.

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20 minutes ago, samiam said:

I wonder if the ammo will be listed on some of the carry permits the way the specific gun is? If so, I see potential problems. If you used the listed gun in self-defense, and the ammo didn't match the permit, would you be arrested? Unlikely, but I wouldn't 100% rule out the possibility. Even if that didn't happen, if the incident resulted in a lawsuit, would using different ammo be touted by attorney for plaintiff(s) as evidence of negligence? I can almost guarantee it would. I'd like to be wrong, but to me that looks suspiciously like CYA by the qualifying instructor at the expense of his customer.  

That's not what the statute and administrative code says.  Let's stop overthinking this.

My qualified certificate from Shooters only lists Make, Model, S# and Caliber with space for 4 Handguns. Nothing about Type, Brand or Grains

52 minutes ago, samiam said:

I wonder if the ammo will be listed on some of the carry permits the way the specific gun is? If so, I see potential problems. If you used the listed gun in self-defense, and the ammo didn't match the permit, would you be arrested? Unlikely, but I wouldn't 100% rule out the possibility. Even if that didn't happen, if the incident resulted in a lawsuit, would using different ammo be touted by attorney for plaintiff(s) as evidence of negligence? I can almost guarantee it would. I'd like to be wrong, but to me that looks suspiciously like CYA by the qualifying instructor at the expense of his customer.  

Take a deep breath my friend.

You're looking WAY too far into things...

I have made many calls to different places and spoken with instructors who are doing the quals. Prices average $150--$175. There is an enormous difference in what each place considers a qual.  The law just states that you must demonstrate safety , proficiency with the firearm that you intend to carry and submit scores.  . There is nothing in the NJ carry permit law that states yardage, timing, target choice and position. The state police may recommend something but that's about it. I wish to qual at  3, 5, 5, 7 , & 10 yds standing. There is no logical reason to be tested at 15 or 25 yds as self defense at those distances are rare. If I have to add 15 so be it but shooting with a Glock 26 is challenging.

14 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:

Ugggh!  I'm signed up to qualify at Shooters next week.  Considering canceling and finding another venue.  Just not interested in some guy yelling at me while I'm shooting.  There shouldn't be a qualifier at all since it's all constitutionally protected...  Not crazy about instructors, who I would wish were pro 2A, adding unnecessary requirements to the qualifier shoot to make exercising a right even more cumbersome.  We're all grown ups.  Let's just agree that these infringements suck, shoot whatever course is required, and go home with as little hassle and wasted time as possible. 

Can anybody recommend a range that does that?  Keeps it simple, shoots what's required, no added fluff, no fancy tactical drills, and I go home with signed papers?

What about Bob's in Glassboro? What do they do for qualifications?

1 hour ago, DAHL said:

I have made many calls to different places and spoken with instructors who are doing the quals. Prices average $150--$175. There is an enormous difference in what each place considers a qual.  The law just states that you must demonstrate safety , proficiency with the firearm that you intend to carry and submit scores.  . There is nothing in the NJ carry permit law that states yardage, timing, target choice and position. The state police may recommend something but that's about it. I wish to qual at  3, 5, 5, 7 , & 10 yds standing. There is no logical reason to be tested at 15 or 25 yds as self defense at those distances are rare. If I have to add 15 so be it but shooting with a Glock 26 is challenging.

No idea where you're located but IMO you should try Shooters.

It covers what you're looking for and is much cheaper than the prices you mentioned.

2 hours ago, DAHL said:

I have made many calls to different places and spoken with instructors who are doing the quals. Prices average $150--$175. There is an enormous difference in what each place considers a qual.  The law just states that you must demonstrate safety , proficiency with the firearm that you intend to carry and submit scores.  . There is nothing in the NJ carry permit law that states yardage, timing, target choice and position. The state police may recommend something but that's about it. I wish to qual at  3, 5, 5, 7 , & 10 yds standing. There is no logical reason to be tested at 15 or 25 yds as self defense at those distances are rare. If I have to add 15 so be it but shooting with a Glock 26 is challenging.

Truth be told, I hit 6 for 6 at 25 yards with a p938.... I ain't no sharp shooter... I missed 2 shots at 7 yards with it, lol. 

I'm not saying it should be done that way, just that it can be. 25 yards isn't that far if someone's trying to kill you with a rifle, a rare occurrence but still. 

I just want my freaking permits from piscataway so I can pick up my carry gun. 34 days and counting

A hit on the edge of the target at 25 yards is a hit inside the edge at all distances shorter than 25 yards.

A hit on the edge of the target at 7 yards is a hit on a bystander at least 2 people's widths to the side of the target at 25 yards. Who would find that acceptable?

2 hours ago, DAHL said:

I have made many calls to different places and spoken with instructors who are doing the quals. Prices average $150--$175. There is an enormous difference in what each place considers a qual.  The law just states that you must demonstrate safety , proficiency with the firearm that you intend to carry and submit scores.  . There is nothing in the NJ carry permit law that states yardage, timing, target choice and position. The state police may recommend something but that's about it. I wish to qual at  3, 5, 5, 7 , & 10 yds standing. There is no logical reason to be tested at 15 or 25 yds as self defense at those distances are rare. If I have to add 15 so be it but shooting with a Glock 26 is challenging.

Exactly.  Let's stop adding unnecessary complexity to something that's already unconstitutionally complex.

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

A hit on the edge of the target at 7 yards is a hit on a bystander at least 2 people's widths to the side of the target at 25 yards. Who would find that acceptable?

That would depend on who the bystander is, would it not?

I kid, your point is valid!

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

A hit on the edge of the target at 25 yards is a hit inside the edge at all distances shorter than 25 yards.

A hit on the edge of the target at 7 yards is a hit on a bystander at least 2 people's widths to the side of the target at 25 yards. Who would find that acceptable?

I found the shorter distance shots I focuses a lot less on fundamentals..I knew it wasnt a bullseye match, hence my two missed shots... I figured I got this... until I didn't... everything went well after that and your point is correct. 

 

My dad in Florida just had to shoot at a target to get his CCW, they didn't even have to hit it. 

 

15 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

My dad in Florida just had to shoot at a target to get his CCW, they didn't even have to hit it. 

Well, that fits with FL finding a hunting license to be acceptable proof of training - you don't have to hit the target to get that either.

2 hours ago, Cheflife15 said:

I just want my freaking permits from piscataway so I can pick up my carry gun. 34 days and counting

I'm at 34 days also for  my pistol permits that I wanted to carry the gun has been sitting at my FFL for a Month I got tired of waiting so I qualified with a different pistol on Wed at shooters and turned in my paperwork today in Bayville Tic Toc Tic Toc Person in charge told me as of now you can't ad guns to your permit. I showed her the code I had on my phone that says you can carry any handgun you legally own with your carry permit She took a picture of it and said she would check with the State Police on it 

 

Qualified today at RTSP , total cake walk.Qualified with 2 guns. Could not have been easier. 1 guy did fail for not safely handling his weapon. Its refreshing to see them enforcing the safety first aspect as it should  be.

 

Did qualification at Shooters today. It was.... different. $90 plus tax (plus plastic surcharge if you use one) gets you up to five guns. I don't think any of us needed to shoot more than one gun, since they were all bottom feeders.

He did do the induced stress factor deal. Basically, you had to listen to commands, move your target, top off your mags, reload as required all while taking your shots. I would not say it was very rushed, but it was not slow paced either. There was one required tactical reload called for. That string was three shots, reload, six shots. Turned out at the start of that string I only had two rounds. So I did two, emergency reload then seven shots. I think I needed one other emergency reload. I'd top off and/or swap mags in between the shooting commands. More single and support hand only shooting than I expected, but they were at the shorter distances. Speaking of distances, he didn't call them out. He'd move one target and tell everyone to move theirs to that distance. Nothing crazy, 15 yards max, maybe? I was too focused on other things to care what the actual distance was. 

Biggest hassle was the shore traffic on 539. No regrets going there. 

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25 minutes ago, samiam said:

When I checked in, he asked me to show him my NJ FID. I told him I didn't bring it, as it wasn't on his list (neither was it mentioned to me by the NJSP Woodbine trooper with whom I inquired a few days ago about the legal procedure for transporting my handgun to the class venue, which was Seaville Volunteer FD, not the FMJ range). He told me point blank that I had just committed a felony.

He's right (for the wrong reason), but so did everybody else presuming you were all doing the class in preparation for getting your permit to carry a handgun.

Your FID does nothing for you with regard to a handgun, except allow you to buy ammo for it. You need a PCH to carry a handgun, nothing less.

The fire department is not an exempt location so travelling there with a handgun would have been a felony if you were caught.

If the instructor can't get that well established bit of the law right, how much do you trust him on use of force laws?

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59 minutes ago, samiam said:

......If your analysis is correct, there were at least 75 students at the fire hall, none of whom had carry permits, and all of whom had handguns in their possession (many or most in unsecured bags, but, theoretically with no ammo in possession), .....

You had a class of at least 75 students?! How many Instructors and/or Assistants?