1 hour ago, CapGuns&SnapsKid said:

I saw this on NJGunReddit, I wonder what the other ranges and instructors qualification sheets look like. maybe we can post them up in here?! just a thought.

I am being told that some of them include 5 lines to fill in (as needed) for the guns you qualify with.

10 minutes ago, Combat Auto said:

intentionally deleated, many appologies

 

1 minute ago, Combat Auto said:

Ha, ha, ha, wow, now I know why you had such an "unbiased"-LOL! opinion about harping on quals at long distances. This is just too much (in funny way)...The friendly ribbing aside, glad you are offering it so people can get their button. Still, I need to laugh a bit more - LOL!

I can see why you see humor in it, but the reason I chose HQC1 is for my own liability protection. If someone I sign off for is involved in an incident and manages to hit something or someone they were not supposed to I anticipate an inquiry from the police about how/why I signed off. I feel that if I can point to the same CoF that NJSP use I will be better off than using a CoF I made up on my own.

Also, it is possible to pass HQC1 without any hits at 25 yards and I find it hard to believe that anybody is that poor a shooter.

10 minutes ago, Combat Auto said:

I am being told that some of them include 5 lines to fill in (as needed) for the guns you qualify with.

From GFH? 

They give you a certificate for each handgun, one gun per cert, no additional lines. 

2 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

From GFH? 

They give you a certificate for each handgun, one gun per cert, no additional lines. 

Nope, not GFH.

Just now, Combat Auto said:

Nope, not GFH, a differnet venue.

 

Since this is the qualification thread...

I noticed that the above certification list factory ammo type. I was unaware that this might be a requirement. Just curious if any of the other certification sheets also list ammo? I was actually planning on using reloads for the qualification, since all of my guns shoot best with my recipe. For carry ammo, I would re-sight the guns listed on my qualification for duty ammo; but otherwise it would be much too expensive to practice/train with.

FWIW - I hate using "cheap" range ammo; poor accuracy, inconsistent recoil, dirty as hell, muzzle flash, smokey, etc..

 

14 minutes ago, RichP said:

Since this is the qualification thread...

I noticed that the above certification list factory ammo type. I was unaware that this might be a requirement. Just curious if any of the other certification sheets also list ammo? I was actually planning on using reloads for the qualification, since all of my guns shoot best with my recipe. For carry ammo, I would re-sight the guns listed on my qualification for duty ammo; but otherwise it would be much too expensive to practice/train with.

FWIW - I hate using "cheap" range ammo; poor accuracy, inconsistent recoil, dirty as hell, muzzle flash, smokey, etc..

 

I always keep a few empty boxes around from previously used factory ammo for occasions like this.

I did my qualification at Shooters and they told me to bring "100 rounds of factory ammo", so I showed up with 100 rounds of reloads in Winchester boxes.  They didn't check, but most of the brass I use is Winchester so I don't think it would have mattered.

If they were strict about it I would have purchased a couple of boxes from them with no argument.

18 minutes ago, RichP said:

Since this is the qualification thread...

I noticed that the above certification list factory ammo type. I was unaware that this might be a requirement. Just curious if any of the other certification sheets also list ammo? I was actually planning on using reloads for the qualification, since all of my guns shoot best with my recipe. For carry ammo, I would re-sight the guns listed on my qualification for duty ammo; but otherwise it would be much too expensive to practice/train with.

FWIW - I hate using "cheap" range ammo; poor accuracy, inconsistent recoil, dirty as hell, muzzle flash, smokey, etc..

 

The poi is not going to change significantly enough to matter for the qualification. They will not be looking for you to shoot his eye out and count it as a miss if the bullet hole is not touching the pupil.

You're overthinking this.

26 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

The poi is not going to change significantly enough to matter for the qualification. They will not be looking for you to shoot his eye out and count it as a miss if the bullet hole is not touching the pupil.

You're overthinking this.

I tend to overthink things.

Can I request an overlay?

2 minutes ago, RichP said:

I tend to overthink things.

Can I request an overlay?

They put down Federal 115gr 9mm for mine. It's what the box said..... I had no idea they were going to put down the exact cartridge used until I was handed the complete certificate.

So... yeah, don't over think it. 

You could tell them you are using a specific bullet. Like 124gr RN 9mm. I'm sure they wouldn't care omitting the manufacturer, I would call and ask first. 

15 hours ago, CapGuns&SnapsKid said:

I saw this on NJGunReddit, I wonder what the other ranges and instructors qualification sheets look like. maybe we can post them up in here?! just a thought.

are they doing a use of force lesson?

If so how long and what is the curricula?

2 hours ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

are they doing a use of force lesson?

If so how long and what is the curricula?

From what was said on Reddit, yes!  You receive a packet in your port ,you go over the material then sign off. Not sure of the time spent in the class.  If I didn't live so far I would go here. but Shooters is the closest to me with many reputable references ,they was also posted on the NJSP website along with GFH, so I went with them. Aug 13th!! 

1 hour ago, CapGuns&SnapsKid said:

From what was said on Reddit, yes!  You receive a packet in your port ,you go over the material then sign off. Not sure of the time spent in the class.  If I didn't live so far I would go here. but Shooters is the closest to me with many reputable references ,they was also posted on the NJSP website along with GFH, so I went with them. Aug 13th!! 

Thank you for the information - so it begs the question.

1)  Does the material in the packet satisfy a need for a "use of force" requirement that is in the statutes?

2)  Is this "use of force" 'class' required? Or just qualified course of fire?

3) Are those that are NOT doing a "use of force" sign off, see those they qualified, with whatever course of fire they are using, getting things kicked back etc.?

6 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

Thank you for the information - so it begs the question.

1)  Does the material in the packet satisfy a need for a "use of force" requirement that is in the statutes?

2)  Is this "use of force" 'class' required? Or just qualified course of fire?

3) Are those that are NOT doing a "use of force" sign off, see those they qualified, with whatever course of fire they are using, getting things kicked back etc.?

The Admin code says this:

Quote

(b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by:

1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;

2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or

3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.

(c) The information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s).

There are 3 options for (b) of which you need to satisfy 1. Only option 3 has anything to do with use of force training. Shooting a qualification satisfies option 2 so you don't need to prove anything to do with use of force.

Of course it is a very good idea to make sure you know the law regarding use of force, but it is not a required part of the application.

36 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

The Admin code says this:

There are 3 options for (b) of which you need to satisfy 1. Only option 3 has anything to do with use of force training. Shooting a qualification satisfies option 2 so you don't need to prove anything to do with use of force.

Of course it is a very good idea to make sure you know the law regarding use of force, but it is not a required part of the application.

Thank you...!

***DELETED***

***DELETED***

3 minutes ago, samiam said:

I agree with your assessment. However, I would think that there must be comparible cases (civil and/or criminal) that could be examined, from states that do not require qualification. I have non-resident CHP for four states, none of which required any qualification test or training (VA, UT, FL, NH). Statistically, it seems impossible that no one carrying in those jurisidictions has ever caused serious injury or death, or done serious property damage, during defensive use of a handgun, that could be attributed to lack of training. I do not know where to find any of those cases. Do you have any cites or links? 

I don't have any specific citations to hand, but it is common knowledge that civil liability cases have been brought against the defender in a self defense shooting. There have even been cases brought by the bad guy's family against the person that defended themselves from said bad guy and killed him - even after they were found not guilty from a criminal perspective.

It's a nutty world and in my personal view it is not very defensible to say "Oh yeah, I just figured I'd lob a couple of rounds his way in case I got lucky and hit him. Nah, it don't usually make hits that far away so I only practice at 7 yards." I'd rather not contribute to the nuttiness.

2 hours ago, CapGuns&SnapsKid said:

From what was said on Reddit, yes!  You receive a packet in your port ,you go over the material then sign off. Not sure of the time spent in the class.  If I didn't live so far I would go here. but Shooters is the closest to me with many reputable references ,they was also posted on the NJSP website along with GFH, so I went with them. Aug 13th!! 

The form you get from Shooters will state that you have:

- "successfully completed a permit of carry course demonstrating 'that he is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns' in accordance with N.J.A.C 13:54-2.4(b)"

- Qualifying on Handgun Qualification Course and has received a minimum score of 80% ( I actually scored 100%, but I understand the form letter thing)

- Instructor certifies that "I have provided a course of instruction to the above-named applicant on firearms safety and have also given instruction on deadly force issues"(they have it in bold on the form)

I presume that covers the bases.

We will see.

***DELETED***

I qualified with Shooters, paperwork all accepted and just notified my references were contacted.

 

Flying up for work next week.  Booked my time slot at Gun For Hire for the qualification.  Hoping to drop off the application that same day at NJSP since I am not an NJ Resident. 

Fingers crossed.  It's getting spicy! 

***DELETED***

2 minutes ago, samiam said:

Just out of curiosity, how do you plan to handle fingerprinting, since you need the CCN from NJSP after submitting to schedule Identogo? I wish you much luck. This process currently looks murky enough for NJ residents...

IdentoGO does have offices here, but they don't offer the same service code here. So I will have to fly back up again.  I still work for a company in NJ, so I fly up often enough. 

I filed the Change of Address for my FID a little while ago as well. 

My family is still up in NJ/NY, so I am in NJ more than I want to be.  Figured F it, might as well try to get the CCW

***DELETED***

 

1 minute ago, samiam said:

Well, best of luck to you!!!

Thank you, sir!

53 minutes ago, Alex V said:

Flying up for work next week.  Booked my time slot at Gun For Hire for the qualification.  Hoping to drop off the application that same day at NJSP since I am not an NJ Resident. 

Fingers crossed.  It's getting spicy! 

You may want to call the barracks ahead of time. 

There's a pdf on the NJSP website which says "*PLEASE CALL YOUR LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT OR STATE POLICE BARRACKS PRIOR TO APPLYING –DO NOT JUST SHOW UP"

I called my local Barracks asking about it to see if they were requiring an appointment and/or if I was going to need to go during traditional working hours. The Trooper was not very informative. Since I was not ready to submit my packet right now, he just told me to call when I was ready to submit it. When I pressed further regarding needing an appointment or hours I could drop off the packet, meaning did I need to take time off from work, he said no. He said if one of the "Firearms guys" was not there another Trooper would take everything and I'd get a phone call later with the instructions for fingerprinting, or needed corrections to my packet. He said "most people" do something wrong and have to come back. 

Link to the pdf referenced above. 

https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/NJSP_WEBSITE_REVISION_FOR_PTC_v2.pdf

1 minute ago, kc17 said:

You may want to call the barracks ahead of time. 

There's a pdf on the NJSP website which says "*PLEASE CALL YOUR LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT OR STATE POLICE BARRACKS PRIOR TO APPLYING –DO NOT JUST SHOW UP"

I called my local Barracks asking about it to see if they were requiring an appointment and/or if I was going to need to go during traditional working hours. The Trooper was not very informative. Since I was not ready to submit my packet right now, he just told me to call when I was ready to submit it. When I pressed further regarding needing an appointment or hours I could drop off the packet, meaning did I need to take time off from work, he said no. He said if one of the "Firearms guys" was not there another Trooper would take everything and I'd get a phone call later with the instructions for fingerprinting, or needed corrections to my packet. He said "most people" do something wrong and have to come back. 

Link to the pdf referenced above. 

https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/NJSP_WEBSITE_REVISION_FOR_PTC_v2.pdf

Yup saw that.  Thank you! I will be calling them ahead of time.  I am in NJ for two full days so I will have a little flexibility.  

5 hours ago, samiam said:

If the cost of that approach meant that I increase my own risk in order to decrease the risk to innocent bystanders from my shots, I have no problem doing that. I know at least one ex-LEO who would criticize that on the basis that, as a result, I am also decreasing my ability to defend those innocent bystanders, but I disagree with that analysis. 

You have to earn your shot.

You have to earn it ahead of time by training - so you have the ability.

And you have to earn it in the moment of crisis by thinking - so you create opportunity.

Sometimes, earning it requires you to take risks or put yourself in greater danger - but that’s part of the responsibility of carrying in defense of self and others.

If you can’t do that, either because the tactical situation makes it impossible, or you have different responsibilities (family member in danger), or you don’t have the ability to successfully make that particular shot - don’t shoot. Don’t force it. Improve your position if you can by solving any of the problems preventing you from being successful, and work it. Sometimes, things just don’t line up and that’s ok. But, don’t take the shot you can’t make just because you were there.

Shooting at or hitting an innocent bystander accidentally/negligently is unacceptable.

***DELETED***