On this forum, as on many others that I peruse, there is much consternation over hollowpoints. People seem to be missing the fact that while the law specifically states "hollowpoint", it also states dum-dum bullets. Now I know what the original dum-dum was - named for the Dum-Dum arsenal in Colonial India. Nose of a lead bullet cut with an "X" to promote expansion. If you look up the common definition of dum-dum in today's parlance, you'll find that it is interpreted to mean any expanding bullet. That means that everyone's concerns about "hollowpoints" should be expanded to include, PowrBall's, EFMJ's, JSP's, XTP's etc. etc. Just about any bullet other than FMJ's. Just another example that if the man is out to get you, you're going to be gotten. Fortunately, most LEO's seem to have only the same concern as the general gun-savvy populace: Hollowpoints, which are easily, visually identified. Be careful out there.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

I may be wrong but I do agree with this. I AM NOT A LEO or a LAWYER, but my interpretation of the law is any bullet that is designed to expand or fragment upon impact is considered to be a hollow point or dum-dum. I know its been covered here many times.

Sorry, got to do it >

 

From the NJSP Firearms Unit:

 

Hornady critical defense is my pistol HD load.

There you go again Paul..bringing facts into a Paranoid Rant.. FOR SHAME!!!!!!!!

On this forum, as on many others that I peruse, there is much consternation over hollowpoints. People seem to be missing the fact that while the law specifically states "hollowpoint", it also states dum-dum bullets. Now I know what the original dum-dum was - named for the Dum-Dum arsenal in Colonial India. Nose of a lead bullet cut with an "X" to promote expansion. If you look up the common definition of dum-dum in today's parlance, you'll find that it is interpreted to mean any expanding bullet. That means that everyone's concerns about "hollowpoints" should be expanded to include, PowrBall's, EFMJ's, JSP's, XTP's etc. etc. Just about any bullet other than FMJ's. Just another example that if the man is out to get you, you're going to be gotten. Fortunately, most LEO's seem to have only the same concern as the general gun-savvy populace: Hollowpoints, which are easily, visually identified. Be careful out there.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or (2) any person, other than a collector of firearms or ammunition as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) and has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who knowingly has in his possession any body armor breaching or penetrating ammunition, which means: (a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and (b) which is comprised of a bullet whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than.025 of an inch, is made of tungsten carbide, or hard bronze, or other material which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater on the Rockwell B. Hardness Scale, and © is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. For purposes of this section, a collector may possess not more than three examples of each distinctive variation of the ammunition described above. A distinctive variation includes a different head stamp, composition, design, or color.

 

Pizza Bobs concern is valid imo, because it clearly states hollow nose or dum dum. Even though EFMJ are not considered "hollow point", they may still be considered "dum dum" bullets, depending on the legal definition of "dum dum" bullets.

:arrow:

So what exactly is the legal definition of a "dum dum" bullet?

Paul:

 

I wasn't looking to get into a pi$$ing contest - I just simply pointed out that the way the NJ law is written, it could be interpreted to mean just about any bullet, depending on how vindictive the DA decides to be. Just like most NJ firearms laws, there is an awfully large gray area in this prohibition. While the letter you hold certainly lends validity to your position, it has been said over and over again that when you want an interpretation of any law, a LEO is the last person you want to rely on. The letter states that the rounds specified are not hollowpoints - it does not address the crux of the matter as to what, under the law, constitutes a "dum-dum". In contemporary parlance, dum-dum is defined as any expanding bullet. Given the state we live in, I don't think I am being overly paranoid. It won't stop me from using them in my defensive firearms, but it should give one pause for thought.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Paul:

 

I wasn't looking to get into a pi$$ing contest - I just simply pointed out that the way the NJ law is written, it could be interpreted to mean just about any bullet, depending on how vindictive the DA decides to be. Just like most NJ firearms laws, there is an awfully large gray area in this prohibition. While the letter you hold certainly lends validity to your position, it has been said over and over again that when you want an interpretation of any law, a LEO is the last person you want to rely on. The letter states that the rounds specified are not hollowpoints - it does not address the crux of the matter as to what, under the law, constitutes a "dum-dum". In contemporary parlance, dum-dum is defined as any expanding bullet. Given the state we live in, I don't think I am being overly paranoid. It won't stop me from using them in my defensive firearms, but it should give one pause for thought.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Don't regular lead bullets expand a little when they enter a target? (Smoosh out?)

So how does the whole hollow point discussion apply to the large majority of us?

As most of use do not have a carry permit or are LEOs, carrying any gun loaded with any ammo in it gets us on the deep doo doo list. The only place we reasonably would use hollow points, in earnest, is at our homes in a self defense, and as far as I know hollow points are legal at home.

I have to admit I have been vexed by this as welll.

 

Dum dum bullets expand, the E in EFMJ seems to make it positively fit the description.

I do believe that having EFMJ in NJ is the same as having hollow points, despite what some gun dealers have told me.

The email above was addressed to the Lieutenant of the NJSP Firearms Unit. :roll:

Addressed to the LT from who? Maybe I should know this, but who's Brett Bloom?

Looks like we need "Attorney General Guidelines" on this.

.

A quick question. I assume that I can shoot hollow points at the range. Am I correct?

Yep - that's correct.

A quick question. I assume that I can shoot hollow points at the range. Am I correct?

 

Yes, they are legal for hunters and for home defense. You can shoot them at the range but don't drive all over the place with hollow point ammo in your car. Make it a point of going from the range to your home. Hollow points are a very touchy subject in this state, just like a lot of things. For the time being I dont buy them anymore. If you want to just be extra careful and make sure to have them on your property or at the range only.

 

-Scott

just in case you're worried about the answer:

http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_hollow.html

Regarding the assumption that the EFMJ, Powerball and Critical Defense ammunition were considered hollow-points because they expand, I was told directly by the NJSP that these types of ammo were allowed to be carried because they do not fit the description of " hollow nose or dum-dum bullet" as addressed in the statute. Take it for what it is.

Got it - thanks Paul.

FYI: No current Lt. in the ballistics or Firearms units - last one retired and they are in the process of promoting from within. Det. Bloom is a State Trooper assigned to the unit. I believe all the detectives in the unit answer those emails.

 

-Scott

Lt. David Schlueter :oops:

Just wondering, if Hornady Critical Defense are not considered HP's because the cavity is filled with a polymer, can any HP be modified in the same way. For example, fill the cavity with plastidip?

 

http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip

^^^

 

when I took my UT CCL, t was made very clear - NEVER EVER modify anything you may use for defense. Strictly factory.

 

G

^^^

 

when I took my UT CCL, t was made very clear - NEVER EVER modify anything you may use for defense. Strictly factory.

 

G

 

Was that because of safety, liability, against the law in UT or other?

- I just simply pointed out that the way the NJ law is written, it could be interpreted to mean just about any bullet, depending on how vindictive the DA decides to be. Given the state we live in, I don't think I am being overly paranoid. It won't stop me from using them in my defensive firearms, but it should give one pause for thought.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

I watched Judge Dredd the other day and thought of NJ and it's moronic laws:

 

[Dredd trips over Fergie, who is fleeing the block war at Heavenly Haven, and is now judging him]

Herman Ferguson: 5 years? But I had to! They were killing each other in there!

Judge Dredd: You could have gone out the window.

Herman Ferguson: We're 40 floors up! That would have been suicide!

Judge Dredd: Maybe, but it's legal.

^^^

 

when I took my UT CCL, t was made very clear - NEVER EVER modify anything you may use for defense. Strictly factory.

 

G

 

Was that because of safety, liability, against the law in UT or other?

More Liability than anything else. Lets be realistic here. In Today's society, unless there are clear-cut laws that give immunity to a good defensive shoot, there WILL more than likely be a lawsuit, no matter how justified your actions. This whole "Factory Only" concept comes from an article wrieen by Mas Ayoob a while back, where he (Rightly IMO) stated his fear that an attorney would portray the shooter as some deviant crazed killer sitting in his basement laughing manaically as he crafted his death machines. While to this date AFAIK there hasnt been a case with this as a factor, IMO it is a legitimate concern.