some of you may remember that I posted on the registration of rifle ammunition. It turs out that this is enshrined in the NJ "Administrative Code", which is a kind of handbook to the Application" of the law as written

 

the SP have combined two unrelated aspects:

 

(i) sale of any ammunition that MAY be used in a handgun...(so the .308 in the Thompson scenario)....

 

and

 

(ii) handgun ammunition cannot be sold to people under 21

 

 

to define .308, .223, 5.56 etc rifle ammo as handgun ammo and so prevent people under 21 from buying it. This happened to my son's friend yesterday - he was denied 5.56 ammunition at Cheyenne Mountain, on the basis that it was handgun ammo.

 

SO now we have the completely ridiculous situation where an 18, 19 or 20 year old can get an FPID card, buy a rifle and be denied ammunition for that rifle.

 

If they want to change the law to prevent under 21s from owning anything other than shotguns, they should change the law on FPID cards. This kind of backdoor bs is sickening.

 

G

 

and of course - it begs the question - in what other arenas are the state police and the AG essentially writing the Law in the Admin Code, to move it beyond the actual law... driving? childcare? free-speech?

What is the statute number? Is it a new rules proposal?

Is this what you were referring to?

 

Every retail dealer of ammunition shall maintain a permanent record of ammunition acquisition and disposition. The record of purchase or acquisition shall consist of invoices or other commercial records, which shall be filed in an orderly manner separate from other commercial records maintained. Such records shall show the name of the manufacturer, the type, caliber or gauge, quantity of the ammunition acquired in the transaction, the date of each acquisition and from whom received. The record of sale or disposition shall be maintained in a bound form and shall contain the date of the transaction, name of manufacturer, caliber or gauge, quantity of ammunition sold, name, address and date of birth of purchaser, and identification used to establish the identity of purchaser. The dealer shall confirm the age of the purchaser of rifle and shotgun ammunition to be at least 18, and handgun ammunition to be at least 21. No record need be maintained for the sale or disposition of shotgun or rifle ammunition. However, sales or other dispositions of ammunition intended for use in any other firearm and which may be interchangeable between rifles and handguns, as well as hollow-nosed or dum-dum ammunition, must be recorded. The records shall be maintained in chronological order by date of acquisition and disposition and shall be kept at the location the business is being conducted.

IMHO, if I sold someone a .308 rifle and he purchased .308 ammo, I WILL NOT record the ammo sale in my bound book. If he bought, or stated that he had, a T/C pistol that used .308 ammo, I would put on my tin-foil hat (yes, i have one) and record it.

courtesy of Bob, over at njcsd.org.... (who is extremely well-versed in the NJ firearms law)..

 

nice to know we have a bunch of develishly clever people creating laws

or regs. based on personal believes for the greater good...

so whats next? a provisional FID for those 21 and under that would only allow

buying shotguns and shells ...I would'nt bet against them saying; only persons 25 yrs or older may obtain an FID......smells like chicago style rules...

www.copesdistributing.com

www.ammunitiontogo.com

www.centerfiresystems.com

 

try and register THAT rifle ammo!

nail gun ammunition

 

You've GOT to be kidding me. Now we refer to it as nail gun ammunition? Better make sure that you don't have a collapsible stock or evil features on your nail gun.

 

Further proof that NJ sucks.

The statutes and administrative code are not new. I think Genewarper111 is merely pointing out a possible (maybe even a likely) outcome. I would be interested to know if anyone knows of anyone that is under 21 that has been denied ammunition merely because it could be used in a handgun. No sense getting all riled up unless we have some examples.

 

One thing that is clear, though. Retailers of ammunition record everything that can be used in a handgun because of the administrative code, not the statutes. This is because, the AC requires it and the retailer could lose his license if he does not comply with the AC.

 

After learning about this, I submitted a Petition for Rules Change to eliminate all recording of ammunition, except for dum-dum and hollow-nose ammo. These are the only two types of ammo required by statute to be recorded when sold. We'll see what happens.

 

They have 60 days to approve, deny or refer for further study. If they refer, they have another 90 days to approve or deny. I submitted the petition about a week ago.

 

If anyone is wondering why I didn't petition for all of the recording to be halted, it is because that would require a change to the statutes. I took it as far as I could without having to change the law.

i got denied .22lr ammo the second after i bout my remington 597. i said " you just sold me the rifle that shoots this ammunition and yet you are refusing to sell it to me?" its a load of bull ur old enough to go to war and get killed but cant buy ammunition i feel like we are beating a dead horse though, we have a bunch of threads with this same topic we need to change it not just discuss it

^^thanks, but just for clarity, my son's friend, who is 20 and holds a valid NJ FPID card, was denied 5.56 ammunition yesterday in Cheyenne Mountain. The reason given was that it would fit the Thompson and so, as handgun ammunition, could not be sold to a minor.

 

So, this is a real, not hypothetical, situation.

 

Best,

G

Go to PA, or order it online. No problems when you do business with companies based in America.

^^thanks, but just for clarity, my son's friend, who is 20 and holds a valid NJ FPID card, was denied 5.56 ammunition yesterday in Cheyenne Mountain. The reason given was that it would fit the Thompson and so, as handgun ammunition, could not be sold to a minor.

 

So, this is a real, not hypothetical, situation.

 

Best,

G

 

Don't go here anymore.

^^thanks, but just for clarity, my son's friend, who is 20 and holds a valid NJ FPID card, was denied 5.56 ammunition yesterday in Cheyenne Mountain. The reason given was that it would fit the Thompson and so, as handgun ammunition, could not be sold to a minor.

 

So, this is a real, not hypothetical, situation.

 

Best,

G

 

Sending you a PM.

Go to PA, or order it online. No problems when you do business with companies based in America.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is absolutely not a solution to the problem. It is bad enough that the law enacted by our elected representatives are so restrictive, but it is indefensible that or non-elected officers of the court (be they stete or localpolice officers, town and county prosecuters, judges or the attorney general) are extending those laws without recourse to the legislature. While i freely admit that I am not familiar with the process through which the Administrative Code is derived, amended or adjusted, I do not believe that it was ever intended to allow such ajustments and extensions of the law.

 

Buying ammunition in PA or wherever is certainly a pragmatic solution, but it is one that simply allows this process to be continued unchallenged. It also undermines the existence of our hard-pressed FFLs. If the AG or others believe that there iis the will in NJ to change the law they should attempt to do so, but this backdoor bs is an affront to everyone who lives and pays taxes here in NJ.

Buying ammunition in PA or wherever is certainly a pragmatic solution, but it is one that simply allows this process to be continued unchallenged. It also undermines the existence of our hard-pressed FFLs. If the AG or others believe that there iis the will in NJ to change the law they should attempt to do so, but this backdoor bs is an affront to everyone who lives and pays taxes here in NJ.

 

Regardless of the case, call me a tin foil hatter but I don't feel comfortable having my name, address, vital info, etc. directly linked to the specific type and quantity of ammo purchased in a book somewhere.

 

Maybe if retailers in NJ suffered a devastating loss of revenue by people who value their privacy, they would get off their asses and do something to change things.

 

As for the administrative code, it's bull, and hopefully is changed.

UPDATE...

 

Cheyenne Mountain has a sign up stating that ammunition will not be sold to anyone under 21....

 

G

Vote with your feet and your wallet.

After a brief read, it appears that the NJSP's Administrative Code is not a reasonable interpretation of the Statute, and, perhaps, is contradictory to the statute. Someone (i.e. a dealer) should file suit and watch the disgusting NJ "judicial" system turn itself inside-out trying to validate the NJSP's interpretation.

The correct remedy is to file a Petition for Rules Change to change the Administrative Code. I did so on July 16th as a citizen that does not want to provide my personal information in order to exercise my 2A right of self-defense.

 

They have to respond by Sep 15th. We'll see what happens.

The correct remedy is to file a Petition for Rules Change to change the Administrative Code. I did so on July 16th as a citizen that does not want to provide my personal information in order to exercise my 2A right of self-defense.

 

They have to respond by Sep 15th. We'll see what happens.

 

 

Someone (i.e. a dealer) should file suit and watch the disgusting NJ "judicial" system turn itself inside-out trying to validate the NJSP's interpretation.

 

You know, that's a really damn good question.

 

How come none of the dealers in NJ are doing shit about this? They've got all that "right to keep and bear arms" and NRA bullshit in their windows, but when the chips are down, they shut up and make sure they don't rock the boat. Pathetic. Oh, but no worries, they've got a sign making fun of the president so they are "good" :roll:

 

I mean, if they're not going to do anything, or care, maybe they can at least be honest and stop putting on an act?

The correct remedy is to file a Petition for Rules Change to change the Administrative Code.

The way the state has been run lately, that might backfire. They'll change it and screw all the young hunters. Next thing you know, they'll change the age limit of FIDs to 21 and older, not just the handgun permits.

The correct remedy is to file a Petition for Rules Change to change the Administrative Code.

The way the state has been run lately, that might backfire. They'll change it and screw all the young hunters. Next thing you know, they'll change the age limit of FIDs to 21 and older, not just the handgun permits.

 

I guess bitching about it and letting them do whatever the heck they want (like people here have for 20+ years already) is a better course of action?

 

Fact of the matter is, Smity is doing what few people in this state have bothered to do in decades. Win or lose, I support him, for whatever that's worth.

The correct remedy is to file a Petition for Rules Change to change the Administrative Code.

The way the state has been run lately, that might backfire. They'll change it and screw all the young hunters. Next thing you know, they'll change the age limit of FIDs to 21 and older, not just the handgun permits.

 

 

You can't win a fight if you never get in the ring.

 

If anyone wants to read my petition, I will bring it to the next NJ2AS meeting on Aug 9th.

I really hope it works. If it does, it would be a good motivational tool to get other things fixed...

Maybe we can try to start working on removing the "justifiable need" clause when applying for a CCW permit.

I dont see how it can be a Loss..although you cant always anticipate every reaction.. Remember we LOST CMP deliveries because some moron called NJSP and asked if it was kosher to get their rifle delivered to their home.

Here is a letter you can draft to all of your NJ senators/ASSembly people.

 

Dear Senator/Assemblyperson,

 

I hope this finds you well.

 

 

I would like to bring to your attention a very disturbing quirk in NJ law regarding Rifles, and the ammunition that accompanies them.

 

In brief: Right now a FID card can be issued to anyone 18 and over who is qualified. The FID card allows them to purchase long guns (rifles and shotguns).

 

Conversely people under the age of 21 are not allowed to purchase certain kinds of rifle ammo because they can be used in handguns and handgun ammo must be recorded in a log, and only be sold to people over 21. People under 21 cannot legally purchase/own a handgun in NJ. You see from the papers that criminals under 21 have no issue getting guns.

 

Check out the administrative code at; 2C:58-3.3 which defines handgun ammunition, and 13:54-3.14 which describes the permanent record that needs to be kept of handgun ammunition sales.

 

So the sum of this is, you now have in NJ a situation where a person over 18 can legally purchase a rifle, but cannot legally purchase the ammunition to go with that rifle because some 'calibers' can be used in a pistol. For example the .22 rifles we all shot in summer camp as kids. People under 21 can own the rifle, but cannot buy the ammo because the ammo for a .22 can be used in a pistol as well. An adult cannot legally buy/transfer the ammo to his kid as this is a 'straw purchase' and is illegal.

 

What you are creating here is a defacto 'ban' on the use of legally owned and acquired long guns because people under 18 cannot acquire ammunition. This flies in the face of the recent Supreme Court decision. You basically have a system here in NJ where you are banning the use of these firearms because of the fact that the ammunition may fit in a handgun.

 

USE ONLY IF YOUR REP HATES GUNS AND GUN ISSUES (Now I know you are not a fan of firearms and firearms 'issues'. But your office was very responsive to me last time and I did greatly appreciate the assistance of your staff and the promptness of the response. As my legislator, I feel that you have a responsibility to make these things right as you stood up for One Gun A Month and other restrictions on law abiding citizens.)

 

These are problems with the law that leave NJ wide open to lawsuits that will be hard to defend, and costly. There are 2m gun owners in NJ. The NRA has a lot of money. NJ's gun laws are already under challenge and there are many lawsuits behind it. NJ needs to come into compliance with USA laws. As a child, civics taught me that the Supreme Court was the 'Law Of The Land'. The Supreme Court decided that ALL Americans have a right to arms for self-defense, and unreasonable restrictions by the states are illegal. This is unreasonable and cannot be tolerated, as it cannot be remedied by current laws/code. NJ law/code villifies young gun owners. My father taught me to shoot when I was 15. We went along to the creeks in Sayerville/Old Bridge to duck/goose hunt. Those are really fond memories. I want to impart the same appreciation for nature and respect for firearms to my children.

 

 

 

All gun owners know that criminals on the streets have guns, will always have guns, will always skirt the law and abuse my rights. We know that criminals do not go to the police, get interviewed, have 2 references sent out and sent back to the police notarized along with a mental health check and FBI, local and NJSP, then NJSP again at time of purchase, then I pay a fee of 16.50 on a free service that the FBI provides to the NJSP, that service is the NICS background check that must run through the NJSP, yet the NJSP is relying on the FBI to provide a free service that gun owners pay 16.50 in order to put their hands on that gun.

 

This is the process only the law-abiding citizen has to go through, mind you. The criminal goes and gets a gun on the spot. The criminal abuses all of our rights.

 

 

 

So I write this to you in hopes that you will look into filing a Petition for Rules Change to change the Administrative Code so that it closes this loophole.

 

I would ask that the rule change be that NJ stop the recording of handgun ammunition all together as this serves as nothing but a list of people who legally own guns, and bought ammo, a defacto 'list'. (Remember, you need to show your DL and FID card if you want to buy pistol ammo here in NJ)

 

 

 

This is what a mess NJ gun laws are in.

 

Is this really what NJ wants?

 

People under 18 to either go out of state and buy the ammo, or potentially be arrested for possessing it, or going to the store and being denied the purchase of ammo to use in a legally owned firearm. These are your options in NJ. This is unreasonable.

 

 

 

NJ will go broke defending against these types of lawsuits. NJ's gun laws are burdensome on the law-abiding citizen.

 

As the NJ Supreme Court stated when deciding in NJ vs. Pelliteri 1996, "when dealing with guns, the citizen acts at his own peril".

 

This can no longer be the norm in NJ, deal with criminals, but don

I just sent this to my reps.

You all need to do the same, in some form. Email is best because blackberries mean they see it and read it, delete it, maybe think about it, who the hell knows in this state....

There are 2m gun owners in NJ.

 

Where are you getting this absurd number from? There about 9 million people in NJ, assuming maybe a third of them are children that leaves about 6 million adults. For there to be 2 million gun owners that would mean 1 in 3 adults owns a gun. If we play with statistics of population vs. household that would mean half the households in the state have a gun.

 

I assure you the numbers are nowhere close to that. Last I read, and I will find the link in a little bit for you, it said NJ has the lowest gun ownership rates in the USA except Washington D.C. with only .5% of the population owning a gun. That's one in 200 people, and about more accurate I'd say. If we had 2 million gun owners in the state, the laws wouldn't be the bullshit they are. Keep in mind, NJ's laws are very effective at limiting gun purchases. Having to walk into a police station is something unheard of for anything in daily life except NJ gun permits. It's very intimidating especially in urban areas.

 

I don't know for sure how many gun owners are in the state, nor does any statistics I don't think. Well, the state knows exactly how many legal gun owners there are, and exactly where they live, thanks to our wonderful system. But I am confident there's nowhere near 2 million gun owners in NJ. At most, I'd say maybe 500,000, and spread out far enough that they mean absolutely nothing to the legislators.

From the ANJRPC.ORG website.

Even if there are 500k of us ( I doubt that it is that small of a number) the supreme court is the law of the land.

Time to come into compliance suckers!

Death by a thousand cuts. Think of how OPEN this loophole leaves NJ. I already called my lawyer!!!

LOL!!!