I am possibly interested in getting a Saiga... I would like a Saiga AK but, Arsenal is very expensive and , I am not so sure I can do the conversion myself. I was taught at a young age "A wise man knows his limits/limitations" and better safe than sorry, etc. So I am not sure I could do the work.

 

But no one seems to have any AKs in NJ other than somewhere I talked to (One of the ranges ?) had Romanian WASR's and the New(er) Zastavas.. Which I have and like very much. But I might want another in the future.

 

It's not a pressing need and I am not desperate or even prepared to spend the money tomorrow, but is there somewhere who sells Saiga AKs or does the work for making the $300-$400 Saiga rifle into a Saiga AK style?

 

Thanks much for the info.

Will at Red jacket is the top builder in the country and can convert, you just ship the rifle to him UPS ground or whatever, and he will ship it back to your door. If you want to have someone else do the conversion, I suggest you just buy the arsenal rifle. It is a pro-converted saiga. Will does pistol grip only conversions at $350 plus shipping, a full conversion is going to cost nearly as much as a complete arsenal (and you still have to pay for the base rifle).

 

Of course, there are plenty of other builders out there that offer AK services, but they arent cheap either.

 

So my thoughts:

Buy an arsenal rifle (An already converted saiga)

Buy a saiga and leave it alone (uuuugly)

As for converting a Saiga, all there is to it, like I've said a million times before on here, is removing 3 rivets and two roll pins. After that you just put your new parts in. It's nothing you can't do in your garage in a couple hours. As for parts, all you need is a US trigger group, US stock and US grip, also a retaining plate and pistol grip nut & screw. Those parts are less than $100 worth.

 

Watch this video and give it a try, IMO. It's really not hard at all, and when the work is done you'll likely wonder why you didn't do it earlier. Paying Red Jacket $350 is a waste IMO, so is pretty much any "professional" conversion unless you are getting serious work done like having the barrel reprofiled etc. All you'd be doing is paying a guy $350 to take a dremel to your gun and then bolt new parts on, the same as you'd do in the garage.

 

http://www.vimeo.com/2787027

I should also add that Red Jacket is currently with a camera crew filming their shop for an upcoming series on Discovery Channel called "Sons of a Gun" or something like that. So a good portion of your $350 is simply paying for the name. Think like putting a spoiler on your car yourself, or paying for West Coast Customs to do it for you with Xzibit introducing your car End of the day you got the same wing on there but guess who paid the big bucks?

Yeah but the red jacket premium isnt too much, other builders are up there in price, too. Also, they DO do really nice work, not just a name. Anyways, its not as easy as a dremel and drill for the front end work. Pistol grip, yes if everything goes smoothly.

Anyways, its not as easy as a dremel and drill for the front end work. Pistol grip, yes if everything goes smoothly.

 

Yes, it is. I've done three front ends on my rifle with a dremel, sledge hammer, and wood block. To change the gas block all you also need a short section of scrap pipe ~5/8" diameter too.

 

I should add that these rifles are simply not worth that much money, either. If you pay $400 for the rifle including tax and fees, and another $150 in parts, then a $350 service charge, plus ~$25 of shipping each way, you're looking at a $950 rifle. Sorry but these are not $950 guns and paying that much, means you got ripped off, no offense.

if you would like.. PM me exactly what you want done... and I will let you know if I am capable.. I have done several.. including my own..

 

Saiga 223

 

 

Saiga 7.62x39

 

i own damagedworlds 223 saiga he does good work and can vouch for him he is a good deal and knows his shit

i own damagedworlds 223 saiga he does good work and can vouch for him he is a good deal and knows his ****

 

 

thanks man! 8-)

OK ok thank you for those answers that was a nice variety of what I wanted to know/needed to know /etc.

 

Glenn: Thank you for telling me who to talk to IF I went that route, but that is no longer than option. $350 for work plus around $150? I'm told for parts is what, $500, plus the, lets just say $400 maybe even $500 for the actual Saiga rifle, for that $1000 I could get an Arsenal you're right. BUT for $1000 I would either A:- Get the AR (Colt MT I've always wanted, a Colt M4 style is one of my personal "dreamers" ; or a S&W M&P 15 M4-style etc ) I've wanted for my portfolio, but this is unlikely... I will only get an AR if I can afford to get exactly what I want and then customize it exactly how I want and put great optic on it etc. so, AR is unlikely for now and foreseeable future ) , B:- Get a Saiga for less than $500 and spend the other ~ $500 on an Aimpoint for my current Zastava /other guns in my portfolio C:- Get a bolt-action rifle & Scope and accessories for my collection and then add the rest of the balance to general ammo, mags, etc. for everything I have.

 

FFDP: I think am going to do what you suggest. Maybe I will try and if I start to fail I can always ask for Fatherly or Friend help and THEN if still necessary go the next help route.

 

DamagedWorld: I have been admiring yours in secret silence for a long while. I hope to add an Aimpoint (hopefully Micro as well) to my Zastava. (A side note question: If I buy one Aimpoint, is it okay to put it on the weapon I am using presently, and then switch it around, like, The Rifle Of The Day would get to use my one Aimpoint, and lets say I decide to take the 15-22 out, I could throw it on there , but keep it on my Designated SHTF rifle (lets say the Zastava, and it stays on the Zastava in the house etc.) but then want to take out the newer Saiga AK, I could put it on the Saiga for that day, and then return it to the Zastava, and generally throw it on the rifle I'm shooting that day? Is that okay for the Aimpoint, since it's so high quality and rugged that's fine right?)

 

Basically I would want a Saiga with a regular stock and pistol grip (and then I guess the trigger group because its necessary for the lawful conversion , and makes it better right?) I don't know if I'd want the mag well changed , is that important to do, good to do, recommended, not recommended, etc?

 

And I am THINKING I would want it PROBABLY in 5.45, which is the smaller Communist carbine caliber right? I also have the 7.62x39 mm Zastava, so I don't think its necessary to have another 7.62 x 39 mm, but I would take and like your suggestion of which caliber Saiga to go with (with the thought process it is to become an "assault style and sized" carbine, ) I hear 5.45 is very very inexpensive, not sure if that's true or not.. And also not familiar with the pros and cons of that round... Is the 5.56/.223 capable of shooting both? That seems like a nice choice, as I have no rifle to shoot .223 and I know its plentiful and would be good to have (No immediate plans for an AR unless I get an extremely good deal or I find $2000 for free... Is the Saiga accurate (enough) .. with the 5.56 in mind could it do well compared to an AR ( I know its NOT an AR but could it do okay? Cause 5.56 is much better distance and accuracy vs. the 7.62x39 in the Zastava I'm shooting?

Thanks for the info and help.

Basically I would want a Saiga with a regular stock and pistol grip (and then I guess the trigger group because its necessary for the lawful conversion , and makes it better right?) I don't know if I'd want the mag well changed , is that important to do, good to do, recommended, not recommended, etc?

 

And I am THINKING I would want it PROBABLY in 5.45, which is the smaller Communist carbine caliber right? I also have the 7.62x39 mm Zastava, so I don't think its necessary to have another 7.62 x 39 mm, but I would take and like your suggestion of which caliber Saiga to go with (with the thought process it is to become an "assault style and sized" carbine, ) I hear 5.45 is very very inexpensive, not sure if that's true or not.. And also not familiar with the pros and cons of that round... Is the 5.56/.223 capable of shooting both? That seems like a nice choice, as I have no rifle to shoot .223 and I know its plentiful and would be good to have (No immediate plans for an AR unless I get an extremely good deal or I find $2000 for free... Is the Saiga accurate (enough) .. with the 5.56 in mind could it do well compared to an AR ( I know its NOT an AR but could it do okay? Cause 5.56 is much better distance and accuracy vs. the 7.62x39 in the Zastava I'm shooting?

Thanks for the info and help.

 

The Saigas have a double stack magazine well. If you want to use 10/15 round Saiga magazines like the SGM tactical ones, then you don't do anything at all to the magazine well. If you wanted to use communist surplus magazines, you'd need to install a bullet guide, which is simply drilling and tapping a hole and inserting a little metal tab in front of the magazine well on the trunion. But, like I said, to use the SGM tactical 10/15 round magazines, no mods to the mag well necessary. In NJ, you are best off sticking with the 10/15 round SGM tactical magazines.

 

As for 5.45, no a 5.45 rifle will not take .223 or 5.56 rounds, it's an entirely different caliber. It is very cheap to shoot, surplus ammo for it is $159 for 1,080 rounds including shipping at Cope's. The drawback is it is corrosive, which means after you shoot you have to dump water down the barrel, gas tube and bolt face, then go home and clean it. Otherwise, the salt spray in the primers will rust the fuck out of your gun. Or buy the Silver Bear/Wolf stuff at a slightly highr (but still very affordable) price. Cleaning corrosive is a pain but not difficult by any means. The other drawbacks to the 5.45 are that currently the rifles are dried up until next batch is imported and they're very hard to find right now, also, aftermarket magazines are almost non-existent - people buying the 5.45s use the military surplus magazines but we do not have that option in NJ, so finding magazines is a MASSIVE pain in the ass for that rifle. Overall it is a great round and a very fun rifle despite the few drawbacks.

 

As for accuracy, yes the 5.45 is flatter-shooting than the 7.62x39. However, these are not precision rifles, they were never meant to be, and if you want to compete in accuracy with an AR you will go home disappointed. These rifles did not build their reputation through accuracy. The 5.45 shoots flatter than the x39 means simply you wont adjust your sights from 100 to 200 yards most likely. I was shooting my 7.62x39 yesterday, I use iron sights and was keeping 3/4 of the rounds on a 12" target at 200 yards. I expect the same of my 5.45 as well. Good enough for what it was built for. A Saiga or any variant will not compete with an AR in terms of accuracy. The AR is precision machined like aircraft parts with a direct impingment gas system (read; no gigantic bolt and piston slamming around) and many have a free floating barrel too. The Saiga is made from stamped sheet metal in Russia, can be assembled/modified with a sledge hammer and dremel and is sold for $329, you tell me what you think makes itty bitty little groups However the 5.45 and 7.62 Saigas will have no problem keeping the rounds on paper out to 300-400 yards.

The 350 quote was including parts FYI.

Also, arsenals are more than 6-800 not 1,000

 

5.45 is an amazing round. It performs very well but most importantly to me (I dont use rifle for HD, nor target work) it is VERY VERY cheap (like, 10 cents a pop cheap) Corrosive is easy to clean up after. I take a bristle brush, warm water and dish soap and just scrap the crap out of the whole rifle (apart) in the slop sink with the soap and water and blow off with air. After that, clean the bore as normal. Takes me about an hour maybe a little more when im shooting about 500 rounds. That includes the time I take to polish up the gas piston because im super anal like that :shhh:

 

This is my SAR-2. If you can find one, buy it. Its the older brother to the WASR-2, but much nicer. It has dimples, its an orig. hi-cap romy reciever. The mags are welded up to 15 rounds.

Yeah, I gotta second what glennp said, right now a SAR-2 or even the Lancaster Bulgarians are a better bargain than the 5.45 Saigas.

Yeah, I gotta second what glennp said, right now a SAR-2 or even the Lancaster Bulgarians are a better bargain than the 5.45 Saigas.

 

 

Well, they are a better price than a converted saiga and have more historical value than either, but not built AS good as an arsenal as far as cosmetics go.

 

LOOK OUT FOR THE LANCASTER AK-74S! I've head HORROR stories about them with wrong sized gas ports, beating the gun apart, and then they do nothing to fix it. Worse customer service ever. Just google lancaster AK-74 review and see for yourself.

Thank you all again.

 

And please forgive me i DID Not mean to suggest a 5.45 could shoot 5.56...

 

I meant , if its the NATO Caliber Saiga can it shoot NATO 5.56 ammo and commerical/store bought .223... I think if its one label it can shoot both but the other can only shoot its stamped caliber...

 

I just meant to compare the 5.45 vs the 5.56 and what would be a better idea to buy, as your advice I mean. I've got several .22LR rifles, 3 different styles all excellent weapons, actually 3 bangin rimfires, so I am set there. I have an amazing shotgun and if / when I get another I know what I will get, and now I have a 7.62x39mm rifle in my Zastava... So while I may get a SKS (Does anyone have a good SKS deal, I saw a Yugo SKS on Gunbroker , but someone told me I can find good deals on milsurp Commie SKS's packed in cosmoline if I look at the right spot?) ... So I would like another "assault style" carbine rifle in the AK Style, and having the 7.62x39 already, I think I would want a smaller caliber AK Carbine, therefore the 5.45 or .223... What is your recommendations? ( and why, so I can understand)

 

I do understand that it's not an AR rifle, I am wondering if I can get one of these, lets say a converted Saiga in 5.45 or 5.56 and/ maybe put a not-too-expensive, not too serious, magnified scope on it, and have the capability to shoot accurately a "couple hundred yards.." I was told to expect pie plates at 100 yds with the Zastava, and hope and train I can actually hit something at 100-200, 200 being the max. Also was told use a non-magnified red - dot because this is for shooting people not paper targets, so use red dot for quick acquisition and putting the rounds where they need to be that way, quickly and accurately enough, 'minute-of-man'. I ain't no sniper and the Saiga wont be a sniper rifle, but maybe could make a decent shot if it was required and this was what I had to make it with.

 

Maybe like this : http://rrages.com/sight/4xacog/index.htm , a 4x ACOG Clone,

or even this : http://rrages.com/sight/mark3/32/2732/index.htm a 2-7x 32 scope...

 

No reason to put a real , nice, powerful, serious magnificatino scope right, because it just wont shoot for it?

 

Thanks again for the help, I appreciate your guys help, I am just trying to learn and make the best decision I can with the little money I got , you know? Especially when this is not an impulse buy like most of my portfolio, I am waiting and taking my time and will try to get exactly what I want/need/can afford

Upon more checking out of RRages they actually have a few magnified "tactical rifle scopes" with red dots mounted on top, that is kind of cool AND useful right? Red dot for close range/combat/etc. and the magnified scope for slowing down/aiming/precision?

if you already have a 7.62x39 rifle get a Saiga in 223.. for an awesome dead reliable SHTF rifle in a common caliber.. IMO

Upon more checking out of RRages they actually have a few magnified "tactical rifle scopes" with red dots mounted on top, that is kind of cool AND useful right? Red dot for close range/combat/etc. and the magnified scope for slowing down/aiming/precision?

 

For a giraffe, sure

 

I decided to ditch my POSP 4x24 because it sat too high for a good cheek weld for me as is, couldn't imagine being able to get a good solid cheek weld with an optic on top of an optic that's on the AK's already-too-high side mount. IMO if you want a red dot on an AK go with a Primary Arms Micro Dot on an Ultimak gas tube in front, or a BP-02 low profile mount in back. Also 1-4x32 or somewhere in that ballpark scopes are nice if you'd rather have a magnified sight. But optics come down to a lot of preference between users really. These rifles do tend to do best wit either red-dot or low magnification scopes, as to which one is all up to you.

Yeah, I gotta second what glennp said, right now a SAR-2 or even the Lancaster Bulgarians are a better bargain than the 5.45 Saigas.

 

 

Well, they are a better price than a converted saiga and have more historical value than either, but not built AS good as an arsenal as far as cosmetics go.

 

LOOK OUT FOR THE LANCASTER AK-74S! I've head HORROR stories about them with wrong sized gas ports, beating the gun apart, and then they do nothing to fix it. Worse customer service ever. Just google lancaster AK-74 review and see for yourself.

 

Holy shit! I googled Lancaster reviews and almost had a fit. So many awful reviews. I will definitely never recommend their products again, thanks for the heads up.

Glenn: Thank you for telling me who to talk to IF I went that route, but that is no longer than option. $350 for work plus around $150? I'm told for parts is what, $500, plus the, lets just say $400 maybe even $500 for the actual Saiga rifle, for that $1000 I could get an Arsenal you're right. BUT for $1000 I would either A:- Get the AR (Colt MT I've always wanted, a Colt M4 style is one of my personal "dreamers" ; or a S&W M&P 15 M4-style etc ) I've wanted for my portfolio, but this is unlikely... I will only get an AR if I can afford to get exactly what I want and then customize it exactly how I want and put great optic on it etc. so, AR is unlikely for now and foreseeable future ) , B:- Get a Saiga for less than $500 and spend the other ~ $500 on an Aimpoint for my current Zastava /other guns in my portfolio C:- Get a bolt-action rifle & Scope and accessories for my collection and then add the rest of the balance to general ammo, mags, etc. for everything I have.

 

I sold that Saiga posted for like 600 bucks? and that was really a great shooting rifle..

 

DamagedWorld: I have been admiring yours in secret silence for a long while. I hope to add an Aimpoint (hopefully Micro as well) to my Zastava. (A side note question: If I buy one Aimpoint, is it okay to put it on the weapon I am using presently, and then switch it around, like, The Rifle Of The Day would get to use my one Aimpoint, and lets say I decide to take the 15-22 out, I could throw it on there , but keep it on my Designated SHTF rifle (lets say the Zastava, and it stays on the Zastava in the house etc.) but then want to take out the newer Saiga AK, I could put it on the Saiga for that day, and then return it to the Zastava, and generally throw it on the rifle I'm shooting that day? Is that okay for the Aimpoint, since it's so high quality and rugged that's fine right?)

 

Basically I would want a Saiga with a regular stock and pistol grip (and then I guess the trigger group because its necessary for the lawful conversion , and makes it better right?) I don't know if I'd want the mag well changed , is that important to do, good to do, recommended, not recommended, etc?

 

And I am THINKING I would want it PROBABLY in 5.45, which is the smaller Communist carbine caliber right? I also have the 7.62x39 mm Zastava, so I don't think its necessary to have another 7.62 x 39 mm, but I would take and like your suggestion of which caliber Saiga to go with (with the thought process it is to become an "assault style and sized" carbine, ) I hear 5.45 is very very inexpensive, not sure if that's true or not.. And also not familiar with the pros and cons of that round... Is the 5.56/.223 capable of shooting both? That seems like a nice choice, as I have no rifle to shoot .223 and I know its plentiful and would be good to have (No immediate plans for an AR unless I get an extremely good deal or I find $2000 for free... Is the Saiga accurate (enough) .. with the 5.56 in mind could it do well compared to an AR ( I know its NOT an AR but could it do okay? Cause 5.56 is much better distance and accuracy vs. the 7.62x39 in the Zastava I'm shooting?

Thanks for the info and help.

 

 

 

moving the optic from weapon to weapon will likely result in loss of zero.. so you really want the optic to stay with the weapon it fits best..

if you already have a 7.62x39 rifle get a Saiga in 223.. for an awesome dead reliable SHTF rifle in a common caliber.. IMO

 

 

AK in .223...yuck.

 

Few things:

-Part of the AKs reliability comes from the round itself. 7.62x39 & 5.45x39 both have heavy tapers. This means the round, if fired in really crappy situations and has dirt around it in the chamber, only has to extract a tiny bit before its clear of the chamber walls (think of a wedge). The .223 while tecnically tapered, is practically straight walled. It will have to extract against that resistance the entire way out. This does not lend itself to relaibility.

- The AK wasnt designed for it, dont eff with it

- .223 is a poor performer vs both the other rounds

- 5.45 and 7.62x39 are both very common also, and for SHTF, what if some country that uses those rounds attacked? now THATS the available round

- You can make 5.45 very available to yourself without worry by buying it for 10 cents a round. So cheap!

-Part of the AKs reliability comes from the round itself. 7.62x39 & 5.45x39 both have heavy tapers. This means the round, if fired in really crappy situations and has dirt around it in the chamber, only has to extract a tiny bit before its clear of the chamber walls (think of a wedge). The .223 while tecnically tapered, is practically straight walled. It will have to extract against that resistance the entire way out. This does not lend itself to relaibility.

- The AK wasnt designed for it, dont eff with it

- .223 is a poor performer vs both the other rounds

- 5.45 and 7.62x39 are both very common also, and for SHTF, what if some country that uses those rounds attacked? now THATS the available round

- You can make 5.45 very available to yourself without worry by buying it for 10 cents a round. So cheap!

 

Just to elaborate on what glennp said, 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 were designed for a 16" barrel. .223 was designed for a 20" barrel, and running it through a 16" gives you a neutered rifle. I also agree with all his other points too.

I didn't realize that the .223 was designed for a 20" barrel... Thank you for that...

 

I am leaning towards the 5.45 ... Because I have two other wishes/wants I've yet to fulfill in my portfolio , but I will wait until I can really do them right... One is a fully-equipped and nice 5.56/.223 US made M4 style AR, one is a .308 scoped bolt action "sniper" style rifle.. I think I'd rather have a 5.45 "assault" style carbine for the purposes of this exercise..Thank you much.

 

DamagedWorld if you're still tracking this thread, maybe you could do this for me or help me etc?

The one thing to be careful with on the 5.45 Saigas is the availability of magazines. One of the guys posting on this thread who is more knowledgeable on Saigas can correct me if I'm wrong, but, I have yet to find a source of 10 or 15 round magazines for the 5.45 Saiga.

Any mags work. Just use the $15 10 rounders from century, or get some polish steel tantal mags and get them welded to 15 rounds.

I keep forgetting about the 10 round century mags. But yes, I've been trying to avoid the welding route. I really wish SGM would make some 15 rounds for the 5.45s.

The 10 rounders look super goofy though and are a tad bit more difficult to manipulate.

 

As long as they work, I can deal with goofy looks. I've read mixed reports on whether or not I'll need a bullet guide. Some people say you don't need one and others say they have problems with the last round in the mag.

I may end up selling the gun in the end tho. Bought it cuz ammo was cheaper than 7.62.. but 7.62 prices have come down enough that the difference is negligible. We'll see. Thanks for the Century mag reminder tho

if you already have a 7.62x39 rifle get a Saiga in 223.. for an awesome dead reliable SHTF rifle in a common caliber.. IMO

 

 

AK in .223...yuck.

 

Few things:

-Part of the AKs reliability comes from the round itself. 7.62x39 & 5.45x39 both have heavy tapers. This means the round, if fired in really crappy situations and has dirt around it in the chamber, only has to extract a tiny bit before its clear of the chamber walls (think of a wedge). The .223 while tecnically tapered, is practically straight walled. It will have to extract against that resistance the entire way out. This does not lend itself to relaibility.

- The AK wasnt designed for it, dont eff with it

- .223 is a poor performer vs both the other rounds

- 5.45 and 7.62x39 are both very common also, and for SHTF, what if some country that uses those rounds attacked? now THATS the available round

- You can make 5.45 very available to yourself without worry by buying it for 10 cents a round. So cheap!

 

 

I have to disagree with you some of this..

 

* while you WILL find OTHER ammo 223/556 will be EVERYWHERE.. military uses it.. MANY LE use it.. it is VERY common..

 

* banking on another country invading and using the old soviet round is probably not a good bet to make..

 

* while you CAN horde a shit ton of ammo.. good luck being mobile like that.. it is better to utilize a round that will be on your battlefield.. in dwellings.. on the bodies of dead combatants..

 

* what you say about the round itself and the extraction IS partially true.. but having run a TON of ammo through various 223 Saigas I can tell you first hand even under EXTREMELY high shooting conditions shooting the OLD wolf with the lacquer I NEVER had a FTF OR A FTE..

 

* Lastly your point about barrel length IS valid.. but it is valid to a degree.. for SHORT range (which is what I would use an AK pattern gun for even 556 is going to have enough velocity to engage targets.. is a Saiga in 16in the most ideal mid range weapon in the world? NO a 16in AK in 7.62 is (imo at least) BUT with that said having one for the $350ish price tag they carry is WELL worth it.. I regret selling mine and plan on picking up a Sagia in 556 for the sheer fact that it mirrors my 7.62x39 gun.. having BOTH is the solution IMO.. one would lend parts to the other.. you could work back and forth.. muscle memory would be identical.. and so on... also there are PLENTY of people shooting 223 in sub 20 inch barrels... are you making 500+ yard shots with this gun? NO it's not designed for that.. pick up a bolt gun, ar10, etc.. something made to reach out at those distances.. a Saiga in 556 is great for a mid range combat gun IMO..

 

just saying..

if you already have a 7.62x39 rifle get a Saiga in 223.. for an awesome dead reliable SHTF rifle in a common caliber.. IMO

 

 

AK in .223...yuck.

 

Few things:

-Part of the AKs reliability comes from the round itself. 7.62x39 & 5.45x39 both have heavy tapers. This means the round, if fired in really crappy situations and has dirt around it in the chamber, only has to extract a tiny bit before its clear of the chamber walls (think of a wedge). The .223 while tecnically tapered, is practically straight walled. It will have to extract against that resistance the entire way out. This does not lend itself to relaibility.

- The AK wasnt designed for it, dont eff with it

- .223 is a poor performer vs both the other rounds

- 5.45 and 7.62x39 are both very common also, and for SHTF, what if some country that uses those rounds attacked? now THATS the available round

- You can make 5.45 very available to yourself without worry by buying it for 10 cents a round. So cheap!

 

 

I have to disagree with you some of this..

 

* while you WILL find OTHER ammo 223/556 will be EVERYWHERE.. military uses it.. MANY LE use it.. it is VERY common..

 

* banking on another country invading and using the old soviet round is probably not a good bet to make..

 

* while you CAN horde a **** ton of ammo.. good luck being mobile like that.. it is better to utilize a round that will be on your battlefield.. in dwellings.. on the bodies of dead combatants..

 

* what you say about the round itself and the extraction IS partially true.. but having run a TON of ammo through various 223 Saigas I can tell you first hand even under EXTREMELY high shooting conditions shooting the OLD wolf with the lacquer I NEVER had a FTF OR A FTE..

 

* Lastly your point about barrel length IS valid.. but it is valid to a degree.. for SHORT range (which is what I would use an AK pattern gun for even 556 is going to have enough velocity to engage targets.. is a Saiga in 16in the most ideal mid range weapon in the world? NO a 16in AK in 7.62 is (imo at least) BUT with that said having one for the $350ish price tag they carry is WELL worth it.. I regret selling mine and plan on picking up a Sagia in 556 for the sheer fact that it mirrors my 7.62x39 gun.. having BOTH is the solution IMO.. one would lend parts to the other.. you could work back and forth.. muscle memory would be identical.. and so on... also there are PLENTY of people shooting 223 in sub 20 inch barrels... are you making 500+ yard shots with this gun? NO it's not designed for that.. pick up a bolt gun, ar10, etc.. something made to reach out at those distances.. a Saiga in 556 is great for a mid range combat gun IMO..

 

just saying..

 

 

If theres combatants and dead bodies everywhere as you said, then I'de say the chances are just as good that you would find soviet style arms/ammo. Also, you had no manfunctions with 556 but did you go swimming with it or anything? Pack it with mud? Im sure a torture test of 5.56 vs the other 2 calibers would show the 5.56 lacking.

 

If you think 5.56 will be everywhere in a SHTF scenario, then that means so will ARs, AR ammo, AR parts. So if you want to go by your theory of availability for the end of the world kinda dealio, may as well get a AR