I am wondering where the line is drawn, or where you think it should be drawn between collecting firearms and operating a firearms business. At what point do you think that a person is no longer collecting and is actually engaged in operating a business?

 

 

 

 

Summary of responses:

If you exceed a certain quantity.

If it is your main source of income.

If it is a full time job.

If you do not intend to keep, but sell at a profit.

When they get an FFL

I think the real measure is based on how many your selling annually.

Is this a legal question?

It is only a legal question if there is a legal definition. I am unaware of one. I am curious if one exists and if not, does anyone have an opinion on where the line should be drawn?

i don't know the legal answer, but I think it is when it becomes the main source of income or it becomes a full time job. Also, buying a firearm with no intention of keeping it but to sell it for a profit is where i think one crosses the line.

I havent come across it either in your specific context. I have in my own where I build my own 1911's. Some discusions with those that do what I do have had some ATF interactions and have been advised that selling more than 1 or 2 a year for consecutive years would garner them ATF attention for manufacturing without an FFL. So that would lead me to believe that they pay some attention to it at some level. But if your like me and sell at a loss so you can try different firearms it would be hard for then to make a for proffit case

I would say purchasing without the intent to use it.. and resell it for a profit..

 

hence straw purchase... This would be the legal term..

 

It would be in best intrest to aquire an ffl if you want to sell firearms..

Humn, interesting question but the bigger one is for what context would it matter?

 

I would say the difference in the definition would be....

 

"Purchasing firearms for the primary purpose of reselling it for a profit down the road."

 

Emphasis on primary reason for purchase.

 

I will be honest and be the first to admit I have purchased around 35 firearms this year, of which I kept around 28 or so. The other 7 I did not see a need to own any longer, had a similar example in a better grade, decided to take my collection in a different direction, or just plain didn't like to shoot it.

 

I dont believe in safe queens, and have shot all of the firearms I own with the exception of 2, an 1898 Krag and a last ditch Arisaka. I haven't shot them because ammo is tough to find, nor have I had enough time and priority to place on those firearms to put them into the shooting rotation, however... I would love to keep them from a collectors standpoint, and shoot them down the road.

 

Unless I shoot it, and I love it... there is no reason why I wouldn't sell the firearm. The real beauty is buying a used firearm... where you can buy it, shoot it, and if you do not like it, sell it again for the same price.

Hard to prove whats going on in your brain :twisted:

Interesting answers so far.

 

Here's the problem I am having.

 

It shouldn't be based on quantity because who's to say how many of anything you can have in a collection, baseball cards to cars.

 

Primary source of income is better. It allows you to make a profit, but only if you have a better source of income. What if you're retired and it's you're only source of income? What if you're unemployed? Or, on the other side, a bad businessman might have no income, that doesn't make him a collector.

 

Selling at a profit seems logical, but that's exactly how many collectors expand their collection. Sell a couple of pieces at a profit and use the income to improve another part of your collection. Or, buy entire collections and sell off the one's you don't want with the primary intent to improve your collection and hopefully come out ahead.

 

Intent to keep it, not sell it doesn't seem to work all the time either for same reason. Sometimes you have to sell in order to buy. Or, to Maks' point, a collector may only choose to keep it or sell it after shooting it.

 

All good answers, but I am still flummoxed. Is there an answer that works?

Well heres the circle talk in my mind. Quantity would be the trigger for investigation. But how would the trigger actually occur because ftf isnt reported anywhere. If your sales are out of state then its going through an FFL so again how would the trigger occur? To add to this, I have never heard of this kind of case. But I took your question to be more along the lines of what could be made an issue. So about the only way I could see this being an issue is if you got raided for another issue or someone dropped a dime and they found some sort of list, documentation, bank account, quick books, etc etc that gave a clear indication you were conducting business not a hobby.

From ATF:

Q: What does

thanks paul.

 

there ya go... great phrase... principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, someone who starts a business in order to make a profit on firearms, or someone who does, with a primary purpose of enhancing their personal collection.

 

So are you buying and selling guns to pay your mortgage bill or buying and selling guns to make a profit to purchase nice collectible guns that you are keeping for a while.

I agree with PK90 and it dovetails into my own beliefs that you would really need a smoking gun to make the case(a p&l ledger for example or selling under a trade name). I think what Smity is pointing out is the bit of ambiguity in the law. Meaning there is no clear definition. I can understand his concern because the gov seems to like to hammer a square peg infraction into a round hole law. So how does one make sure they could never be accused of selling for profit or selling as a business?

 

I dont think there is a way and I can think of a scenario that could get you into trouble.

 

Here she goes:

 

Collector with a good sized collection decides he needs one pistol he is after. To get it he needs to liquidate a lot. He lists out what he is willing to sell and starts selling and keeping track so that he can achieve his goal of obtaining one super expensive item. In the mean time his wife is caught cheating, it turn ugly, she lies and gets a RO against him, they scoop up everything and find the list and tracking of sales......

Whats your primary motivation for buying the firearm in the first place? When you buy, do you think to yourself:

 

"Wow, I can make a killer profit off of this deal?"

 

Or do you think:

 

"Wow, this is a sweet gun and a great price too!"

 

If you are in business... you are, if you are not in business... you are not. Pretty simple if you ask me. If its your full time job, part time job, or your main source of income you obviously are in business. I don't think there's a number that can be placed on a person collecting. There are people with 500,000 baseball card collections, 100,000 pieces of Coke collectibles... who's to say there isn't some nut out there that wants and can afford to buy 10,000 firearms? Who can judge what someone seems rational for a collection. Some people like collecting and that's their right.

who's to say there isn't some nut out there that wants and can afford to buy 10,000 firearms?

 

Why would that make him a nut :-)

Sirsloop, all I can say is its the same thing I tell my kids, theres how it should be and theres how it is....

who's to say there isn't some nut out there that wants and can afford to buy 10,000 firearms?

 

Why would that make him a nut :-)

 

Depends on who's judging him. I think anorexic girls are flippin nuts... just as much as they think Uncle Bill with a loaded gun cabinet is a nut.

 

Are there any Arsenal Law that specify a number? I saw some posts online where people were mentioning an annual ATF inspection and registration or some bs.

I think there are some advantages to getting an FFL. Sure there's a fee to make up and all the things you have to consider when starting a business, but...

If you plan on selling I think you can buy without tax because you're selling and paying tax then. You don't have the same restrictions of purchase as someone just collecting. If you are a huge collector maybe it would make sense to get an FFL, I don't know.

crackaloon, (and any FFL please correct me if Im wrong) but I believe what you suggest is also an issue unless its a C&R FFL.

 

Although it would seem quite logical and probably welcome for there to be a "heavy use" type FFL, there isnt one

I think there are some advantages to getting an FFL. Sure there's a fee to make up and all the things you have to consider when starting a business, but...

If you plan on selling I think you can buy without tax because you're selling and paying tax then. You don't have the same restrictions of purchase as someone just collecting. If you are a huge collector maybe it would make sense to get an FFL, I don't know.

 

except the ATF is cracking down on collectors getting an FFL just to enhance personal collections and ability to buy for self at cost from dealers.

 

If you are a gun dealer, you have alot of responsibility... who is going to take it more seriously, joe blow collector with an FFL or someone whose livelihood depends on it.

From ATF:

Q: What does

I think there are some advantages to getting an FFL. Sure there's a fee to make up and all the things you have to consider when starting a business, but...

If you plan on selling I think you can buy without tax because you're selling and paying tax then. You don't have the same restrictions of purchase as someone just collecting. If you are a huge collector maybe it would make sense to get an FFL, I don't know.

 

except the ATF is cracking down on collectors getting an FFL just to enhance personal collections and ability to buy for self at cost from dealers.

 

If you are a gun dealer, you have alot of responsibility... who is going to take it more seriously, joe blow collector with an FFL or someone whose livelihood depends on it.

 

I don't even have a clue about the requirements for getting an FFL. I wouldn't have thought it was a big problem for/with collectors, but I really don't know. I realize that the feds have other thoughts in mind when someone gets a dealer license, specifically arming for a government overthrow or some such.

Going to get an FFL with NO intention of using it for it's intended purpose wasn't on my mind.

From ATF:

Q: What does

But selling your collection out of state FTF is illegal for an NJ resident. =)

 

...assume it's a PA resident selling his collection. So, in general, a person selling part or all of his collection in his state of residence. No background checks required right? Problem? Solution?

But selling your collection out of state FTF is illegal for an NJ resident. =)

 

...assume it's a PA resident selling his collection. So, in general, a person selling part or all of his collection in his state of residence. No background checks required right? Problem? Solution?

Legal. This is the gun show loophole the anti's want to close.

This is why I'm actually for having a federal firearms license and a federal concealed carry license. Being able to buy in any state and being able to carry anywhere in the US.

" federal concealed carry license" The problem with this is you have entered the slippery slope of allowing a "right" to be regulated by the fed gov :naughty:

But selling your collection out of state FTF is illegal for an NJ resident. =)

 

...assume it's a PA resident selling his collection. So, in general, a person selling part or all of his collection in his state of residence. No background checks required right? Problem? Solution?

Legal. This is the gun show loophole the anti's want to close.

 

 

Ahhhhhh. I remember reading HR 2324 - Gunshow Loophole Closing Act of 2009 last year. As I recall, nowhere in the bill was this problem actually solved. It was all about record keeping and warrentless searches and penalties so severe that no one would ever try to run a gun show again.

 

It seems to me that there must be a far simpler solution.