Does anyone know whether local/city governments could override or deny the right to cc for permit holders even if this bill becomes law?

If they can, they will. Imagine every county, city, and town having their own particular regulations. Every cc permit holder would eventually get locked up.

BTW, 500$ per year is ridiculous. Bi-annual Psych-evaluations are ridiculous (proving your sanity to some anti-gun shrink...twice a year??? And if they don't like something about you, they not only take away your cc permit...they'll come for your guns!)

A Bi-annual proficiency exam...who gets to set the standards? And what will be the cost?

"if I truly go nuts and decide to go on a shooting spree is my lack of CCW licensing really going to stop me?"

 

Like most things about stupid laws, this is correct. Laws are really only meant to control the honest, law-abiding. Criminals and mentally deficient people don't care about laws.

Earlier in this thread I expressed my refusal to pay for a "right" and used the examples of: Would you pay for the right to free speech, or the freedom to choose your religion. I haven't changed my viewpoint on that. Nor would I go along with all those that say, "Pass it now, we'll worry about the rest later."

 

They are right when they say that there are constitutional grounds to overturn, or reduce the fee. To those that espouse that position, I say: What are you going to do about the psych evaluations called for in this bill? How are you going to argue against them? How? It opens the door to even more onerous conditions. Make no mistake - Heller & MacDonald didn't give us carte blanch - the decisions recognized the need for some type of regulation and that opened the door for the draconian rules already put in place in DC and Chicago. Those are court battles that will be fought over & over again.

 

At least Van Drew has the honesty to state what this really is: A revenue generating scheme. The NJ legislature has proven time and again that they don't give a hoot about rights - all they want to do is get their hands in your pockets. If you encourage/support this Van Drew bill, you will set back the cause by 10 or 20 years. Don't show the politicians that you're willing to accept whatever crumbs they're willing to give-up, demand your rights. Get behind MPC's bill.

 

Rant over.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

A thought on the psych evals. Say you go for these evals and for whatever reason they fail/deny/whatever it is, you. It would now be totally possible for them to strip you of your current FID card and any firearms you currently own.

Does anyone know whether local/city governments could override or deny the right to cc for permit holders even if this bill becomes law?

If they can, they will. Imagine every county, city, and town having their own particular regulations. Every cc permit holder would eventually get locked up.

BTW, 500$ per year is ridiculous. Bi-annual Psych-evaluations are ridiculous (proving your sanity to some anti-gun shrink...twice a year??? And if they don't like something about you, they not only take away your cc permit...they'll come for your guns!)

A Bi-annual proficiency exam...who gets to set the standards? And what will be the cost?

 

 

Does NJ have preemption?

 

and I think it's annual proficiency and bi-annual psych eval.

all they want to do is get their hands in your pockets. If you encourage/support this Van Drew bill, you will set back the cause by 10 or 20 years. Don't show the politicians that you're willing to accept whatever crumbs they're willing to give-up, demand your rights. Get behind MPC's bill.

 

This statement espouses my beliefs completely. There are already far too many politicians with THEIR hands in MY pockets willing to give something to someone else who has no regard for me or my rights. A revolution of sorts is in order. I don't condone violence against anyone, I believe peaceful but exceedingly vocal protest is required to achieve a rollback of the draconian laws from excessive taxes to effectively taxing my inalienable rights. Where's the taxes on the other 9 parts of the bill of rights? They (the establishment) wouldn't dare to attempt to charge you for free speech, freedom of religion, freedom from quartering troops, freedom for due process, freedom to a trial by jury, etc. But to charge you to exercise this particular right seems to be de riguer.

A thought on the psych evals. Say you go for these evals and for whatever reason they fail/deny/whatever it is, you. It would now be totally possible for them to strip you of your current FID card and any firearms you currently own.

 

 

that is a very good point...

 

if these were blind psych evaluations where you are just seeing someone to deem you in "good mental health" then sure maybe it is tolerable once but not over and over and over again.. especially on my dime.. to some degree, if I have to settle..

 

but if I am going to some state appointed anti gun shrink while wearing a giant flashing red shirt that says "gun loving extremist" then I really have great reservations about the honesty of this system..

As far as phych evals......Does the shrink have any liability If you get into a bad shoot? If so they will not take the responsibility!!!!

I am being optimistic, but I have already set aside the $500 for the permit. I have a gun and IWB holster I use when I carry in other states.

it's "biennial" - once every two years - not "bi-annual", twice in each year.

 

oh and it's still an extremely scary, likely very expensive and potentially catastrophic (lose everything) exam.

 

G

When does this come to vote or discussion?

It isn't. My understanding this is all been grandstanding and giving false hope. It is not going to go anywhere other then 2A forums.

Hey Guys,

If I couldn't carry because of my job I would certainly pay it. My wife and most of my friends and family don't wear a badge for a living. Yeah, it's beyond stupid expensive, about the cost of one gun a year, but what's the alternative? No permit and standing behind your principals when you desperately need a weapon to save your life? Or carrying illegally and then losing your life in the legal system, even if you win the fight? I personally believe the better option is to get the CCW law passed, crappy as it may be and even with the high price tag. With so many other states charging more reasonable fees, and a large segment of our population living below the poverty line, my untrained eye sees it as a slam dunk for getting the costs lowered on a class action discrimination suit, particularly if we can keep the dollar signs out of the participants' eyes, and are willing to "settle" out of court for legal fees and a documented reduction in cost to a more reasonable level...what screws most of these cases is greed on the part of the participants, ie... I WANNA GET PAID...As in all things, YMMV...

Respectfully,

Harry

The only reason this came around was to get repubs to vote democratic. Once the election is over, expect this to die quick.

I got this off another forum:

 

It's a lot more $500 a year. You need to qualify twice a year, I used to have to do that for security job here in NJ and the lowest price for qualification was $100.

 

So now we're up to $700.

 

Next you need a psych evaluation every two years, no clue how much a shrink costs per hour but probably tack on another $300 for that?

 

Now we're up to $850 a year.

 

Next, it includes "other fees". NJ police do not do the fingerprints for gun permits anymore, they send you to a company called Sagem Morpho. It's $63 to get fingerprinted.

 

$913 a year.

 

It also places no limit on local towns. Here in my town there's a $25 municipal fee to turn in a gun permit application. Some towns are closer to $50. We'll use my town at $25.

 

So it comes out to around $938 a year. This is not including money for time taken off work to make it to fingerprint appointments, gas costs to drive around doing all this crap, etc. etc.

 

The guy pushing the bill says it's "based off of neighboring states" but I guess not for the fees part. PA CCW is $26 and valid for five years. I could pay 180 years worth of PA CCW fees vs. 1 year of NJ CCW fees.

Its all just speculation until the bill actually passes, which I highly doubt it will be...

I got this off another forum:

 

 

Look at the math on that! It goes from $700 add $300 for phych exam(more likely $4-500) eqauls $850

See: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18784-nj-senator-pushes-law-to-carry-handguns/

 

Obviously we're all upset by this bill, pushing for an unbelievably high price to carry in NJ. I'm curious how many people would actually pay it though?

I would pay it if I could afford it. Unfortunately thats not the case. Maybe if it were a life time fee (instead of annual) like the FPID is, it would be doable. In light of the fact that the Supreme Court decision of the second amendment being an Individuals “RIGHT” is now the current decision, and constitutionally that right “shall not be infringed” I don’t see how any fee other than actually material and admin costs can be imposed. Also it being a Right under the current decision would lead one to the impression that “Shall issue” is mandatory under the constitution. Am I missing something here or just unable to believe the extent to which liberal law makers can get away with saying, “It means what I say it means, not what it says”?

Look at the math on that! It goes from $700 add $300 for phych exam(more likely $4-500) eqauls $850

Psych evaluation that occurs every two years, and estimated at $300 per evaluation, equals an average of $150 a year. His math is correct.

I would pay it if I could afford it. Unfortunately thats not the case. Maybe if it were a life time fee (instead of annual) like the FPID is, it would be doable. In light of the fact that the Supreme Court decision of the second amendment being an Individuals “RIGHT” is now the current decision, and constitutionally that right “shall not be infringed” I don’t see how any fee other than actually material and admin costs can be imposed. Also it being a Right under the current decision would lead one to the impression that “Shall issue” is mandatory under the constitution. Am I missing something here or just unable to believe the extent to which liberal law makers can get away with saying, “It means what I say it means, not what it says”?

 

As stated before, NJ gets away with HOW they phrase the law. They have not completely banned CCW, they just restrict it like a mofo. NJ could technically be considered a shall issue state, however in the law, they require you to present a "justifiable need", which they then determine if it is in fact a justifiable need. States that have completely banned CCW have been overturned because it is unconstitutional.....but NJ did not completely ban it. They just made it completely unreasonable for anyone to get it. I think there are ~1200 citizens who have a CCW.

in an article discussing vandrew's bill it reported that a little over 1,500 ccw's were issued in 09'; that figure did not include

armored car guys,security and alike..it went on to say that, of those that were issued ccw; they went to well connected people

or those that carry large amounts of cash or jewelry on a daily basis...

Im a jeweler, cash and merchandise does not present neccesity. Justifiable need means you have to prove your life and well being is in physical danger. I was told "owning my own business" is not a "justifiable need"

Psych evaluation that occurs every two years, and estimated at $300 per evaluation, equals an average of $150 a year. His math is correct.

 

 

My bad!

As stated before, NJ gets away with HOW they phrase the law. They have not completely banned CCW, they just restrict it like a mofo. NJ could technically be considered a shall issue state, however in the law, they require you to present a "justifiable need", which they then determine if it is in fact a justifiable need. States that have completely banned CCW have been overturned because it is unconstitutional.....but NJ did not completely ban it. They just made it completely unreasonable for anyone to get it. I think there are ~1200 citizens who have a CCW.

I made my original reply before reading all the posts in the thread, sorry everyone for the redundancy of what I said.

Vjf, I understand what your saying……….. I know NJ has no ban on CC and know from experience NJ gets away with “NJ gets away with HOW they phrase the law” or I think more accurately the twisted, fit my agenda interpretation. Again I say 2A says Right of the people, not privilege or right of those with "justifiable need". Maybe what NJ advocate organizations need to do is sue the state for law changes based on “infringement of the right of the people” with the concession those with "extreme justifiable need" are granted (LOL). Then when the mock hearing by the state throws it out, take it to the US court with points that would preempt the ability to require excessive fees or requirements or restrictions. I know this has probably been considered by people smarter and more legally savvy than myself, but if it were any other bill of rights issue US court would intervene so why not give it a shot here?

One last thing before my rambling comes to an end……. In regard to the original thread topic…… I’m a poor blue collar worker and $500 + requirement costs is a lot for me. My gross income is about 50K and household is about 100k and I’m paying a large home mortgage. That makes a CC permit 1% of my gross income, .5% of household….. Of the people who said they would pay the $500+ fee, would you still say you’d pay the fee if the cost was a whole 1% of your annual gross????? Just wondering? Remember a $ number is relevant to what you have and to many even middle class 500 is a lot.

I think New Jersey's gun laws are ripe for the picking and will be challenged a lot sooner than most people think. This whole strict scrutiny and narrow scope stuff and turning the burden of proof over to the state is going to be real interesting and in our favor. I was just listening to a podcast when Alan Gura of the Second Amendment Foundation said the foundation does NOT speak of plans to litigate against a state in public. If you read between the lines, I would like to think they are planning a major legal attack against New York and New Jersey.

 

The main point Alan was making was that the cases have to be battled in a specific order as to set precedent. I'm willing to bet they bring suit against NJ within the next 2 or 3 years.

I think New Jersey's gun laws are ripe for the picking and will be challenged a lot sooner than most people think. This whole strict scrutiny and narrow scope stuff and turning the burden of proof over to the state is going to be real interesting and in our favor. I was just listening to a podcast when Alan Gura of the Second Amendment Foundation said the foundation does NOT speak of plans to litigate against a state in public. If you read between the lines, I would like to think they are planning a major legal attack against New York and New Jersey.

 

The main point Alan was making was that the cases have to be battled in a specific order as to set precedent. I'm willing to bet they bring suit against NJ within the next 2 or 3 years.

I hope you are right sir. Believe me, I would be carrying everyday if I could.....especially because I live 10 minutes outside the ghetto, and travel through it to get to my girlfriends.

I think New Jersey's gun laws are ripe for the picking and will be challenged a lot sooner than most people think. This whole strict scrutiny and narrow scope stuff and turning the burden of proof over to the state is going to be real interesting and in our favor. I was just listening to a podcast when Alan Gura of the Second Amendment Foundation said the foundation does NOT speak of plans to litigate against a state in public. If you read between the lines, I would like to think they are planning a major legal attack against New York and New Jersey.

 

The main point Alan was making was that the cases have to be battled in a specific order as to set precedent. I'm willing to bet they bring suit against NJ within the next 2 or 3 years.

 

There are several active efforts under way and you will see action much sooner than you think...

I like pie. No ef'ing way would I pay $500.

There are several active efforts under way and you will see action much sooner than you think...

 

Is there something you know that you can share with the rest of us?

This is another defacto ban based on cost. And they know it. I wouldn't pay for it based on how terrible and unjust this type of system would be. If anything it's WORSE than what we have now. Shocking....