Emulate PA's gun laws - just like that? That's the idea, but it's not goona happen in one shot. You do realize this is the Peoples Socialist Republic of New Jersey controlled by liberal Dem's. Any type of firearm's law change in our favor is a big step and will be fought with opposition along the way.

 

The media will come against it big time. Most people in this state are ignorant about guns in general, not gun friendly mostly from mis-information and media spin. I wouldn't want a spot light on this.

 

I vote for small increments at a time with heavy pressure.

 

So how does this bill meet your criteria of "small increments at a time with heavy pressure"? It's retarded, does nothing to address any of the issues in our firearms laws, and can only lead to more abuse by the politicians on us.

 

A proper counter proposal for this particular bill is to create a H-FPID card that replaces the current FPID (once someone is above the age of 21), removes criteria for a P2P, and is good for life.

 

If we're not getting that, they can keep this rag of "legislation".

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Or even the mediocre.

 

I understand and respect your position. More laws and more government however go severely against my grain. I have an inherent distrust of the government. Nothing strikes fear into the hearts of men quite like "I'm from the Government... and I'm here to help."

 

Quite honestly Ken - I don't trust these politicians to do the right thing. I don't trust this additional card. I am examining the proposal to see how (not if, but how ) they can screw us out of more of our rights with this new law.

 

When the pistol permit and FID law were passed, the 30 day limit was a caveat included so that the pro-gun lobby would get on board, to ensure that the ENTIRE process was completed in a timely manner, that this was not a bottleneck, that people were not "inconvenienced" too much. All it took was a change of the wind, one court case, and "POOF" that part of the law no longer means anything, AT ALL.

I understand and respect your position. More laws and more government however go severely against my grain. I have an inherent distrust of the government. Nothing strikes fear into the hearts of men quite like "I'm from the Government... and I'm here to help."

 

Quite honestly Ken - I don't trust these politicians to do the right thing. I don't trust this additional card. I am examining the proposal to see how (not if, but how ) they can screw us out of more of our rights with this new law.

 

When the pistol permit and FID law were passed, the 30 day limit was a caveat included so that the pro-gun lobby would get on board, to ensure that the ENTIRE process was completed in a timely manner, that this was not a bottleneck, that people were not "inconvenienced" too much. All it took was a change of the wind, one court case, and "POOF" that part of the law no longer means anything, AT ALL.

We're (for the most part) just having a reasonable and civilized discussion here. I generally also have respect for and thoroughly enjoy reasoned and intelligent debate.

 

I don't try to convince or turn anyone to my point of view on anything. Plenty of room for everyone's opinion. There are always ways to turn anything against us, in any situation, not just this one. I just don't think it's healthy or productive to search for an ulterior motive in everything and become paralyzed because of suspicion. You guys know that I'm as much of a tin foil hat guy as anyone, but I think this, at least on the surface, is innocuous enough that we may consider it as being a step in the right direction, even if the motive may be suspect.

Honestly if that day ever occurs I wouldn't consider leaving NJ anymore. Taxes are high but the location is good as long as they are not robbing us of our constitutional rights.

 

To think that we could be part of America at some point is a Big Deal.

 

I feel the same way

This is not a carry bill. This is a requirement for even more bureaucracy. Yet ANOTHER card requiring yet ANOTHER background check with arguably vague language. Do you know that I am more concerned about my identity being stolen with all of the background checks I have been through in the past year than I am about shopping on the interwebs? Scary.

 

We already have a card, it's our FID. With a driver's license it gives everyone EVERYTHING that the current system does or any new system would do.

 

I have a concern that goes along with this... would a card like this make our information known on the Federal Level? Meaning, will this be the beginning of a Federal type of registry for our names or will it only be filed by the state? if only filed by the sate, who can have access to this information?

Same people who have access to your FID and PPP info. Not an additional concern.

yeah im with a lot of people on this issue, While i view it as a very very small step in the right direction, i also view it as a very very small step in the wrong direction. I don't see the need for yet another FID purchaser card, WE ALREADY HAVE ONE! why not just let us use the same damn card! Will they be issuing us yet another SBI#? This just makes no sense to me. What worries me is that there is no clear reason for them to do this....i guess you could say there doing it out of the goodness of there hearts.. .

I'd like to know the motive behind all of this. While yeah im defiantly for just having a card to buy Pistols, at the same time i find it highly redundant that you need a separate card. All they would have to do is add a section to the existing card which allows the purchase of handguns. Kinda like a drivers license that has a motorcycle license section on it.

This may be the case however it is a moot point. No matter which side wins in the circuit court the other is inevitably going to appeal to the SCOTUS and nothing will change in the interim pending their decision...

 

The SAF isn't going to move any of the cases it loses to the SCOTUS until all of the various circuit court decisions are in because they are going to look for the weakest ruling to bring to the SCOTUS. This is easy a two year process, expect a final decision circa end of June 2012...

 

They know they are toast and are looking to thow us a bone to shut us up. That is all fair and good but they can keep the little pheasant sized wishbone they are offering I want something more like a humerus of a Titanosaur...

 

I would suggest now is the time to kick them, they are on the ropes and know they have a problem. I would be looking to challenge everything from all angles. They are worried about a budget short fall yet are they willing to fight off challenges to several unconstitutional laws at once. Low hanging fruit would be the hollow point ban, the assault weapon ban (specifically the M1 Carbine which is on the C&R list) the pistol permit system, smart guns. The list goes on.

 

 

Wait a minute...an appeals court would most likely stay the decision of the circuit court, allowing us to carry while it gets hashed out. The appeals court is concerned with the law and its meaning and interpretation.

If it fails in appeal, THEN on to the SCOTUS

Any decision (one way or another) would be immediately stayed pending appeal; guaranteed. And then when NJ loses, we still have to go through the existing law to get a permit, it's just that the government will be required to issue when you write "self-defense" as the need. And then we'll need another suit to make them issue in a timely fashion.

Any decision (one way or another) would be immediately stayed pending appeal; guaranteed. And then when NJ loses, we still have to go through the existing law to get a permit, it's just that the government will be required to issue when you write "self-defense" as the need. And then we'll need another suit to make them issue in a timely fashion.

 

 

What he said... ;-)

Baa

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know if I'm considered a "sheep" or a "pragmacist" in this topic, but I did (somewhat flippantly) recently advise people to "..smile and get in line"...

 

can I say "baa-aaa"? sure, but I can also say "humbug".

 

It is completely true that the guns laws in NJ are hugely restrictive relative to almost anywhere in the US. No question. There are also delicious ironies floating around if one cares to be aware of them - my UT ccw permit is allegedly run through NICS with intriguing regularity - every day? week? - as is everyone else's. Why not allow the UT permit to be an instant check for handgun purchase?

 

It is almost certainly true also that these recent pieces of legislation, and the fact that they are moving after being introduced as opposed to languishing as in the past also does suggest that they are being introduced as a means to maintain as much of the status quo as possible in anticipation of a SCOTUS defeat on the lawsuits. However, I think the hope that gun purchase in NJ will ever be done on a driving license alone is unrealistic - sorry.

 

So. My personal thought is that this is the beginning of a slow deliberate process to rework the NJ law in the minimum way possible (laws on top of old laws, as above), that will result in the current FPID card being replaced with a new, more biometric one. This new card will be electronically endorsable for carry permission or whatever, and may also carry a record of all firearm and ammunition purchases it is associated with. These and many other niceties are easily possible. The police, FBI, NICS etc etc know all I can imagine and more about me already - this card isn't going to alter that to any extent.

 

It's a question of what we as a (highly fragmented) community want and how long we are prepared to take to achieve that. Some of us believe (i) that the 2nd and free trade should be made sovereign in these matters, some of us believe (ii) in "reasonable" (whatever that means) training requirements and will accept some form of registration (through transaction logging, NICS checks or whatever), some of us (iii) don't really like the idea of every person being able to carry a gun regardless (and yes I know that many believe that this is the risk one takes when freedoms are freely available - I acknowledge this is a strong and real argument), and some of us (iv) would be happier if guns were restricted to "field sports" and handguns just fade into the background. Every one of those sets (and others) could vigorously defend some elements of their position (I'm somewhere between ii and iii btw - full disclosure) while understanding that other elements are instinctual and not completely rational. Then of course there are the people who believe that all guns should be unavailable.

 

Like it or lump it, our quest to introduce some fairness and equanimity into NJ gun laws will be won by politics and appropriate legal challenges. I'm extremely excited about the lawsuits and I hope that they are successful. If they are then I think that many of he NJ laws will needs to be re-written - probably from the ground up. This will be great. I wonder how long it will take and how complex the debate will be? Any ideas? Five years? In the meantime are we going to keep on with the present system?

 

So, for this latter point alone, I support the HPID card and if introduced I will definitely get one. I'll get it because I will no longer have to take time off work to get an effing paper permit that expires in 90 days or not be able to buy something when I see it. I see this as a real step forward from the current situation while completely acknowledging that it in no way represents the ideal situation, and I do not see a contradiction in that.

 

Best regards and good luck to everyone

Grant

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know if I'm considered a "sheep" or a "pragmacist" in this topic, but I did (somewhat flippantly) recently advise people to "..smile and get in line"...

 

can I say "baa-aaa"? sure, but I can also say "humbug".

 

It is completely true that the guns laws in NJ are hugely restrictive relative to almost anywhere in the US. No question. There are also delicious ironies floating around if one cares to be aware of them - my UT ccw permit is allegedly run through NICS with intriguing regularity - every day? week? - as is everyone else's. Why not allow the UT permit to be an instant check for handgun purchase?

 

It is almost certainly true also that these recent pieces of legislation, and the fact that they are moving after being introduced as opposed to languishing as in the past also does suggest that they are being introduced as a means to maintain as much of the status quo as possible in anticipation of a SCOTUS defeat on the lawsuits. However, I think the hope that gun purchase in NJ will ever be done on a driving license alone is unrealistic - sorry.

 

So. My personal thought is that this is the beginning of a slow deliberate process to rework the NJ law in the minimum way possible (laws on top of old laws, as above), that will result in the current FPID card being replaced with a new, more biometric one. This new card will be electronically endorsable for carry permission or whatever, and may also carry a record of all firearm and ammunition purchases it is associated with. These and many other niceties are easily possible. The police, FBI, NICS etc etc know all I can imagine and more about me already - this card isn't going to alter that to any extent.

 

It's a question of what we as a (highly fragmented) community want and how long we are prepared to take to achieve that. Some of us believe (i) that the 2nd and free trade should be made sovereign in these matters, some of us believe (ii) in "reasonable" (whatever that means) training requirements and will accept some form of registration (through transaction logging, NICS checks or whatever), some of us (iii) don't really like the idea of every person being able to carry a gun regardless (and yes I know that many believe that this is the risk one takes when freedoms are freely available - I acknowledge this is a strong and real argument), and some of us (iv) would be happier if guns were restricted to "field sports" and handguns just fade into the background. Every one of those sets (and others) could vigorously defend some elements of their position (I'm somewhere between ii and iii btw - full disclosure) while understanding that other elements are instinctual and not completely rational. Then of course there are the people who believe that all guns should be unavailable.

 

Like it or lump it, our quest to introduce some fairness and equanimity into NJ gun laws will be won by politics and appropriate legal challenges. I'm extremely excited about the lawsuits and I hope that they are successful. If they are then I think that many of he NJ laws will needs to be re-written - probably from the ground up. This will be great. I wonder how long it will take and how complex the debate will be? Any ideas? Five years? In the meantime are we going to keep on with the present system?

 

So, for this latter point alone, I support the HPID card and if introduced I will definitely get one. I'll get it because I will no longer have to take time off work to get an effing paper permit that expires in 90 days or not be able to buy something when I see it. I see this as a real step forward from the current situation while completely acknowledging that it in no way represents the ideal situation, and I do not see a contradiction in that.

 

Best regards and good luck to everyone

Grant

 

Meh. Despite the fact we may not have any choice in the matter, this new law still sucks. It's not even a marginal step in the right direction... hell, it's ****, just a different shade of brown and consistency.

It is neither a step forward or backward, just sideways.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know if I'm considered a "sheep" or a "pragmacist" in this topic, but I did (somewhat flippantly) recently advise people to "..smile and get in line"...

 

can I say "baa-aaa"? sure, but I can also say "humbug".

 

It is completely true that the guns laws in NJ are hugely restrictive relative to almost anywhere in the US. No question. There are also delicious ironies floating around if one cares to be aware of them - my UT ccw permit is allegedly run through NICS with intriguing regularity - every day? week? - as is everyone else's. Why not allow the UT permit to be an instant check for handgun purchase?

 

It is almost certainly true also that these recent pieces of legislation, and the fact that they are moving after being introduced as opposed to languishing as in the past also does suggest that they are being introduced as a means to maintain as much of the status quo as possible in anticipation of a SCOTUS defeat on the lawsuits. However, I think the hope that gun purchase in NJ will ever be done on a driving license alone is unrealistic - sorry.

 

So. My personal thought is that this is the beginning of a slow deliberate process to rework the NJ law in the minimum way possible (laws on top of old laws, as above), that will result in the current FPID card being replaced with a new, more biometric one. This new card will be electronically endorsable for carry permission or whatever, and may also carry a record of all firearm and ammunition purchases it is associated with. These and many other niceties are easily possible. The police, FBI, NICS etc etc know all I can imagine and more about me already - this card isn't going to alter that to any extent.

 

It's a question of what we as a (highly fragmented) community want and how long we are prepared to take to achieve that. Some of us believe (i) that the 2nd and free trade should be made sovereign in these matters, some of us believe (ii) in "reasonable" (whatever that means) training requirements and will accept some form of registration (through transaction logging, NICS checks or whatever), some of us (iii) don't really like the idea of every person being able to carry a gun regardless (and yes I know that many believe that this is the risk one takes when freedoms are freely available - I acknowledge this is a strong and real argument), and some of us (iv) would be happier if guns were restricted to "field sports" and handguns just fade into the background. Every one of those sets (and others) could vigorously defend some elements of their position (I'm somewhere between ii and iii btw - full disclosure) while understanding that other elements are instinctual and not completely rational. Then of course there are the people who believe that all guns should be unavailable.

 

Like it or lump it, our quest to introduce some fairness and equanimity into NJ gun laws will be won by politics and appropriate legal challenges. I'm extremely excited about the lawsuits and I hope that they are successful. If they are then I think that many of he NJ laws will needs to be re-written - probably from the ground up. This will be great. I wonder how long it will take and how complex the debate will be? Any ideas? Five years? In the meantime are we going to keep on with the present system?

 

So, for this latter point alone, I support the HPID card and if introduced I will definitely get one. I'll get it because I will no longer have to take time off work to get an effing paper permit that expires in 90 days or not be able to buy something when I see it. I see this as a real step forward from the current situation while completely acknowledging that it in no way represents the ideal situation, and I do not see a contradiction in that.

 

Best regards and good luck to everyone

Grant

 

Well this is NJ so even if you like the idea as a gun owner you should be against it. It has a better chance of passing that way...

Well this is NJ so even if you like the idea as a gun owner you should be against it. It has a better chance of passing that way...

 

Dude, I almost snarfed my coffee! This post gets a "post of the day" vote from me.