Hollowpoints are just abotu as illegal as handguns - except you can't get a permit to carry, and don't neeed a permit to purchase. So, not really illegal at home, range, fixed place of business, point of purchase, or points between.

Thanks PK for sharing this.

Here you go:

 

Interstate Transportation of Firearms In response to reports of hunters being arrested for firearms law violations while passing through a state with tight controls,[488] FOPA's drafters inserted provisions to offer protection for such travel. S. 49 as introduced provided that any provision of state or local law "which prohibits or has the effect of prohibiting the transportation of a firearm or ammunition in interstate commerce through such state, when such firearm is unloaded and not readily accessible, (p.677)shall be null and void."[489] On the Senate floor, an amendment was accepted which changed this in two respects: (1) the protection was extended only to persons not prohibited by the Gun Control Act from transporting, shipping or receiving a firearm; and (2) the provision that an infringing law was to be null and void was dropped in favor of a simpler declaration that the transportation was allowed notwithstanding any such law.[490] The rationale for the former change should be apparent. The rationale for the latter was a concern that, if the provisions that "have the effect" of inhibiting interstate transport were declared "null and void," entire sections of state law might be challenged and voided as to all purposes.[491] In this form the provisions passed the Senate,[492] and an identical provision was inserted in the bill that passed the House.[493]

 

Upon transmittal of the House bill to the Senate, the Senate passed both it and an amendatory bill, S. 2414, which greatly affected this section. S. 2414 narrowed the right of travel by providing that it was a right "to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearms"; moreover, both firearm and ammunition must not only be not "readily accessible" but also not "directly accessible from the passenger compartment."[494] The restriction to transport to and from areas where the arms might be lawfully possessed was apparently a counter to criticisms that the bill might otherwise bar arrest of the owner in his own state, under that state's laws, if he argued he was beginning a permitted transportation.[495] The second change was intended to rule out carrying in a glove compartment,[496] which the Senate (p.678)reports had indicated would qualify as "not readily accessible" under FOPA.[497] On the other hand, S. 2414 seemingly widened the allowable transportation by requiring, not that it be "interstate commerce," but that it simply be "from any place" of lawful possession "to any place" of the same.[498] The House passed the Senate bill without amendment.[499]

 

Enactment of S. 2414 does leave some questions unanswered. Fortunately, its late origin has given us a legislative history adequate to address most issues.

 

 

Accessibility

The first question is obvious: what is "not readily accessible"? We can easily discard the horrible hypotheticals raised during the House debates on FOPA, that a briefcase behind the seat would meet this test,[500] or that "inaccessible in most cases probably means concealed."[501] In practical terms, the requirement of inaccessibility is essentially subsumed in S. 2414's requirement that the firearm be stored outside the passenger compartment. If storage in a locked glove compartment was sufficient to meet the accessibility test, as the legislative history clearly indicates,[502] the (p.679)required storage outside the passenger compartment should clearly suffice.

 

 

Purposes

A second question is likewise obvious. For what purposes may the transportation be undertaken? FOPA itself had no requirements relative to the underlying purpose.[503] Opponents of FOPA criticized this lack,[504] but did not carry the day; a House amendment that would essentially have required that the transportation be for defined sporting purposes was decisively defeated.[505] S. 2414 does insert a purpose requirement, but one far broader than that proposed unsuccessfully in the House; the transportation may be for "any lawful purpose."[506] The omission of "sporting" or its equivalent is apparent and would suggest that the transporting party may intend any lawful purpose, including self-defense, at his or her destination.

 

 

Lawful Carrying at Origin and Destination

S. 2414 would require that the transportation be from an area where the person may possess "and carry" the arm to a place where he may do the same.[507] This raises the question of what manner of carrying is being addressed. Carrying restrictions can vary; in some states concealed carrying is banned, while open carrying is subject to no regulation.[508] Others require a permit to carry on or about the person, regardless of purpose,[509] while others only restrict carrying for non-sporting purposes.[510] The legislative history reflects an intention of a simple and pragmatic test: the transporter must be entitled to carry in the way he carries during the transportation; he must be legally qualified to carry an (p.680)unloaded, inaccessible firearm outside a vehicle's passenger compartment both where he begins and where he ends his journey.[511]

 

 

Nature of the Transportation

The shift from transportation "in interstate commerce" to transportation from one "place" to another[512] raises an initial question of whether intrastate trips through a locality with restrictive firearms laws might be covered. There is no explanation of the deletion of "in interstate commerce" in S. 2414's legislative history. On the more general question of whether it was intended to reach intrastate trips, the legislative history implies, but not unequivocally, that interstate trips remain the target. One Representative, for instance, mentioned that both FOPA and S. 2414 cover trips "in interstate commerce,"[513] but received a response that travelers are protected "after they leave the boundaries of their state or local jurisdiction."[514] The responding Representative then, only a few moments later, described S. 2414 as a protection "for interstate travelers."[515] Conversely, even with its restriction to travels in interstate commerce, it had been suggested that FOPA would reach travel within a state.[516] The better reading would probably be to restrict the coverage of this section to interstate commerce, particularly in light of the preamble's failure to make findings that protection of intrastate trips was necessary to a valid federal objective.[517]

 

 

thanks for posting that as well.. it seems pretty clear that despite NJ maybe wanting to stop you.. they lack the legal ground to do so as long as you are transporting the weapon in accordance to the law..

 

is that too much text to put in my signature.. lol

Inside the state, you're illegal to possess unless you're on your way to a permitted destination "with only reasonable diversions". "PA" is not a permitted destination by itself, you "have" to be on the way to a range, &c. FOPA does not help - since FOPA only covers the "intermediate" states, the origin and destination states aren't covered. In NJ, you have to hold to NJ's laws.

 

IANAL, particularly not a firearms lawyer. But since that's the pessimistice view, I figure it's the safest view to take.

 

 

where does it say anything about "intermediate states"? I must have missed that part...

Bringing it to PA for self defense is a lawful purpose, and you will have your FL CCW to show that you are able to do so legally

Bringing it to PA for self defense is a lawful purpose, and you will have your FL CCW to show that you are able to do so legally

 

 

I am really glad Paul posted that.. END of debate once and for all!

Federal government doesn't have juristiction intrastate. And the firearm must be legally possesd in the origination and destination state. That makes FOPA dubious protection in the origination and destination state, only during the intermediate states.

 

For example, FOPA would not protect you if you left NJ with a firearm illegal to possess in NJ, no matter your final destination; say a semi-auto rifle with a folding stock. Since, by NJ law, *all* handguns are illegal to possess unless you're in one of the exemptions, FOPA does not protect you in NJ if you originate in NJ wihtout complying with the transport exemptions (which require a specific destination).

 

It's a crappy interpretation, but as the man in the black robes said - "The citizen in New Jersey possesses firearms at their peril", or words to that effect.

 

What I'm trying to say is; that since the firearm is not legal to possess in the originating state of NJ if you are not proceeding directly to one of the premitted destinations, FOPA may or may not protect you, and given that, NJ legal system will try and grind you into the dirt.

 

Practically? Don't get caught.

Federal government doesn't have juristiction intrastate. And the firearm must be legally possesd in the origination and destination state. That makes FOPA dubious protection in the origination and destination state, only during the intermediate states.

 

For example, FOPA would not protect you if you left NJ with a firearm illegal to possess in NJ, no matter your final destination; say a semi-auto rifle with a folding stock. Since, by NJ law, *all* handguns are illegal to possess unless you're in one of the exemptions, FOPA does not protect you in NJ if you originate in NJ wihtout complying with the transport exemptions (which require a specific destination).

 

It's a crappy interpretation, but as the man in the black robes said - "The citizen in New Jersey possesses firearms at their peril", or words to that effect.

 

What I'm trying to say is; that since the firearm is not legal to possess in the originating state of NJ if you are not proceeding directly to one of the premitted destinations, FOPA may or may not protect you, and given that, NJ legal system will try and grind you into the dirt.

 

Practically? Don't get caught.

NJ has control over what I do IN NJ.. and that is where it ends.. why do you have a handgun in the trunk? I am on my way to PA.. it is being transported in compliance with NJ law.. END OF STORY.. good luck locking someone up with a NJ LEGAL firearm that is being transported to another state.. what you do in PA is irrelevant to the NJ officer..

if you were traveling from "point A" IN NJ to "point B" IN NJ then his opinion would matter..

 

I respect your opinion.. but I will not pretend I am going to a range or some other place of use.. the law defines self defense as a reasonable means for transport.. in plain black and white.. NJ does not recognize that so the gun has to be transported per NJ law.. but once across the bridge.. it has ZERO to do with NJ..

Federal government doesn't have juristiction intrastate. And the firearm must be legally possesd in the origination and destination state. That makes FOPA dubious protection in the origination and destination state, only during the intermediate states.

 

For example, FOPA would not protect you if you left NJ with a firearm illegal to possess in NJ, no matter your final destination; say a semi-auto rifle with a folding stock. Since, by NJ law, *all* handguns are illegal to possess unless you're in one of the exemptions, FOPA does not protect you in NJ if you originate in NJ wihtout complying with the transport exemptions (which require a specific destination).

 

It's a crappy interpretation, but as the man in the black robes said - "The citizen in New Jersey possesses firearms at their peril", or words to that effect.

 

What I'm trying to say is; that since the firearm is not legal to possess in the originating state of NJ if you are not proceeding directly to one of the premitted destinations, FOPA may or may not protect you, and given that, NJ legal system will try and grind you into the dirt.

 

Practically? Don't get caught.

 

This is pretty much what I've been saying all along. FOPA may or may not protect you but there is no ambiguity, you are committing a felony in NJ by not traveling to a permitted destination. You can scream FOPA all you like as you're cooling your heels in county lockup. Always have a plan to go to a range, once across the border, you can choose to change your mind. There is no doubt that if you are traveling to a range, you are legal in NJ and you have an affirmative defense under NJ statutes.

This is pretty much what I've been saying all along. FOPA may or may not protect you but there is no ambiguity, you are committing a felony in NJ by not traveling to a permitted destination. You can scream FOPA all you like as you're cooling your heels in county lockup. Always have a plan to go to a range, once across the border, you can choose to change your mind. There is no doubt that if you are traveling to a range, you are legal in NJ and you have an affirmative defense under NJ statutes.

 

 

NJ has NO jurisdiction in PA.. where are you going with your firearm?

to PA..

 

first of all there is no instance where I would ever be discussing that with an officer.. but just addressing the "what if"

 

FOPA has EVERYTHING to do with state to state transport of a firearm..

where you going? PA

for what?? RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES!

NJ has NO jurisdiction in PA.. where are you going with your firearm?

to PA..

 

first of all there is no instance where I would ever be discussing that with an officer.. but just addressing the "what if"

 

FOPA has EVERYTHING to do with state to state transport of a firearm..

 

If the officer doesn't believe you are transporting to PA then what? You are still in NJ, now you are transporting illegally.

 

Suppose you are westbound on 80, your low tire pressure light comes on, you pull off but there's no gas station at this exit, so you go east bound one exit where you just passed a gas station. Before you get to the exit your tire is totally flat. You pull off, pop the trunk and start working on changing it. New Jersey State trooper McHelpful pulls behind you and turns on his lights to make sure no one hits you. He walks up to your car to see if he can provide assistance and sees gun boxes in the trunk. Now what?

 

You're a NJ resident on your way to PA, eastbound? "Yes, officer, it's my right to go to PA with guns"? No, you're going to lie. "I'm on my way home".

 

There are tons of reasons a cop may doubt you. Maybe he notices your tattoos and figures you for a gang banger.

 

Will any of us ever get caught? Probably not. Is FOPA a suitable defense? Maybe. Can you alleviate it easily by aiming towards a range? Yes.

since i have a home in PA, can i legally LEAVE my nj registered handgun there? it would be a way i dont have to deal w/ the nj popo on my trip out of this state and back w/out the BS!

since i have a home in PA, can i legally LEAVE my nj registered handgun there? it would be a way i dont have to deal w/ the nj popo on my trip out of this state and back w/out the BS!

 

If you have a home in PA, you are covered already.

If the officer doesn't believe you are transporting to PA then what? You are still in NJ, now you are transporting illegally.

 

Suppose you are westbound on 80, your low tire pressure light comes on, you pull off but there's no gas station at this exit, so you go east bound one exit where you just passed a gas station. Before you get to the exit your tire is totally flat. You pull off, pop the trunk and start working on changing it. New Jersey State trooper McHelpful pulls behind you and turns on his lights to make sure no one hits you. He walks up to your car to see if he can provide assistance and sees gun boxes in the trunk. Now what?

 

You're a NJ resident on your way to PA, eastbound? "Yes, officer, it's my right to go to PA with guns"? No, you're going to lie. "I'm on my way home".

 

There are tons of reasons a cop may doubt you. Maybe he notices your tattoos and figures you for a gang banger.

 

Will any of us ever get caught? Probably not. Is FOPA a suitable defense? Maybe. Can you alleviate it easily by aiming towards a range? Yes.

 

I did not intend to be overly argumentative in my post to you.. it came off that way.. I apologize.. but I give up enough freedom to live in this state.. I refuse to scare myself into lying..

 

as you stated.. it is a situation that will likely never occur..

I did not intend to be overly argumentative in my post to you.. it came off that way.. I apologize.. but I give up enough freedom to live in this state.. I refuse to scare myself into lying..

 

as you stated.. it is a situation that will likely never occur..

 

I didn't take it any way other than you're as annoyed about the laws as I am. Remember, I'm from Ohio and I suspect that's the reason I've spent so much time reading and re-reading all the legalese. I want to be perfectly clear about where I stand. I travel to Ohio usually once or twice a year and early on, back before all this stuff was on the internet(mid 90s), I was winging it. While I've never been pulled over with firearms in the car, if it ever happens, I want my ducks in such a straight row that I'm above question. What I wish is that FOPA was clarified and clearly stated somewhere that it preempts NJ statute under the circumstances outlined above but it doesn't so here we are discussing hypotheticals because of the failure of our elected representatives.

name='vladtepes' timestamp='1295999403' post='286188']

NJ has control over what I do IN NJ.. and that is where it ends.. why do you have a handgun in the trunk? I am on my way to PA.. it is being transported in compliance with NJ law..

 

Well, you can't transport a handgun in accordance with NJ law unless you are going more to an exempted location. If you are going to PA simply to carry, you are not transporting in accordance with NJ law at all. You are breaking NJ law and relying on your interpretation OF FOPA. In NJ, you are in illegal possession of a handgun.

 

END OF STORY.. good luck locking someone up with a NJ LEGAL firearm that is being transported to another state.. what you do in PA is irrelevant to the NJ officer..

if you were traveling from "point A" IN NJ to "point B" IN NJ then his opinion would matter..

 

Why you have a handgun in your trunk in NJ is very relevant to the officer. It is illegal to possess a handgun in NJ unless at your home, business, or transporting to or from an exempted location, etc.. So, you are breaking NJ law and relying on your interpretation of FOPA.

 

I respect your opinion.. but I will not pretend I am going to a range or some other place of use..

 

Then you are breaking NJ law and relying on your interpretation of FOPA to supercede it.

 

the law defines self defense as a reasonable means for transport.. in plain black and white.. NJ does not recognize that so the gun has to be transported per NJ law..

 

You are not transporting per NJ law. You are breaking NJ law. NJ law says you cannot possess a handgun unless you meet an exemption. You don't meet an exemption in NJ law. I'm assuming you know you that driving around with a secured and unloaded handgun in your trunk is illegal in NJ. So please stop saying you are transporting in accordance with NJ law. Unless you are going to one of the places you refuse to pretend to be going to. You are not.

 

but once across the bridge.. it has ZERO to do with NJ..

 

Very true.

PA is not a permitted destination for the purposes of NJ law; though Ready Aim Fire in Bristol (for example) is. (And, for that matter, the NRA range in VA was the last couple of times I traveled with firearms). In NJ, you are subject to NJ law, in PA you're subject to PA law (which, incidentally, isn't a whole lot more permissive than NJ law if you don't have a PA LTCF or a permit from a state with reciprocity save for the "open carry" thing - read up on PA transport law sometime). FOPA doesn't help you in NJ because, unless you're travelling (directly, &c) to a legitimate destination you possess the firearm illegally in the state of origin. Morally, you're in the right; that, a Sierra Hotel lawyer, and a couple hundred $K will get you to the SCOTUS after a long stay in prison. If you're lucky.

PA is not a permitted destination for the purposes of NJ law; though Ready Aim Fire in Bristol (for example) is.

 

If you're going to Bristol, may as well go to Classic Pistol in Southampton. Close enough. They allow rifle caliber. Shoot your AKs, ARs, and .30-06's. They also allow FA.

You are not transporting per NJ law. You are breaking NJ law. NJ law says you cannot possess a handgun unless you meet an exemption. You don't meet an exemption in NJ law. I'm assuming you know you that driving around with a secured and unloaded handgun in your trunk is illegal in NJ. So please stop saying you are transporting in accordance with NJ law. Unless you are going to one of the places you refuse to pretend to be going to. You are not.

 

 

I suggest you reread the item that PK90 posted..

it explains that the law is in regards to transporting your legally owned firearm from one state to another, NJ exemptions are for transporting the gun within the state..

 

In fact here.. if YOUR interpretation of the law was the fact.. then EVERY single person to EVER take a handgun to a range outside the state... and did not go DIRECTLY to the range and then home.. they would be breaking the law.. every competition.. say you have a pistol competition in Arizona.. your logic states unless you go DIRECTLY to Arizona.. and then DIRECTLY home you are breaking NJ law and subject to punishment.. you can not stop.. you can not spend the night.. go directly to the range.. and come directly home.. which is obviously ridiculous.. the law is for transporting a gun within the state..

 

as far as FOPA

 

Accessibility

Gun is locked in the trunk of the car with ammunition separate.. the gun is not accessible therefore satisfying accessibility..

 

Purposes

you are carrying a gun in PA for self defense.. under FOPA self defense is an acceptable reason...

 

 

Lawful Carrying at Origin and Destination

my gun is lawfully owned in NJ and PA recognizes my right to carry.. making it legal there this satisfies legal at start and finish..

 

carrying a gun to PA for self defense is the same as taking your gun to a competition in Wyoming.. if you lug your gun half way across the country and stay for 4 days.. you are hardly going directly to and from the range.. but that is ok... because FOPA protects you.. just as it does with carrying in PA..

PA is not a permitted destination for the purposes of NJ law; though Ready Aim Fire in Bristol (for example) is. (And, for that matter, the NRA range in VA was the last couple of times I traveled with firearms).

 

so when you went to VA.. you went DIRECTLY there and then came home? because according to your logic.. that is the only way you are legal...

I suggest you reread the item that PK90 posted..

it explains that the law is in regards to transporting your legally owned firearm from one state to another, NJ exemptions are for transporting the gun within the state..

 

No, you missed the point. You repeatedly said, over and over, that you were transporting in accordance with NEW JERSEY LAW. Please go back and check and tell me how many times you said that and I will see if it matches my count. I wanted to clarify that for other people reading this thread because it was inaccurate to state that.

 

I understand you have a different interpretation of FOPA than I do. I said what I thought about that, I'm not going to try to change your mind or enter into an argument with you. It seems you've come to your own conclusion after thoughtful deliberation. I can respect that. Good luck, and I sincerely hope you don’t need it. I'm on your side, not against you.

vladtepes, you are spot on. NJ law covers intrastate transportation and the FOPA covers interstate transportation. The NJ exemptions stated in NJ laws apply to intrastate transportation only. Going from one point in NJ to another point in NJ. When one's destination (intended place by travel) is in another state, the FOPA applies. Destinations often change. Unforeseen circumstances happen. **** happens.

 

I assume that those who are saying the FOPA does not apply, have never taken a firearm out of state for purposes other than to a range. The scenario presented, NJ to PA range, is a FOPA matter. Not NJ or PA transportation laws.

No, you missed the point. You repeatedly said, over and over, that you were transporting in accordance with NEW JERSEY LAW. Please go back and check and tell me how many times you said that and I will see if it matches my count. I wanted to clarify that for other people reading this thread because it was inaccurate to state that.

 

I understand you have a different interpretation of FOPA than I do. I said what I thought about that, I'm not going to try to change your mind or enter into an argument with you. It seems you've come to your own conclusion after thoughtful deliberation. I can respect that. Good luck, and I sincerely hope you don’t need it. I'm on your side, not against you.

 

 

gotcha.. to clear that up..

 

transporting in accordance with NJ law in the sense of what NJ defines as being inaccessible... unloaded locked in the trunk and so on.. that was a miscommunication on my part... FOPA covers you state to state.. what I meant by NJ law was simply the manor in which the gun is transported..

vladtepes, you are spot on. NJ law covers intrastate transportation and the FOPA covers interstate transportation. The NJ exemptions stated in NJ laws apply to intrastate transportation only. Going from one point in NJ to another point in NJ.

 

I find this very interesting. I'm not interested in FOPA at the moment, that's a different subject. How have you concluded that state laws don't apply to somebody planning to leave their state by crossing a state line? I'm not really challenging you on this, I want to see if you know something of value. It sounds like you you know something. Something that would apply to everything, not just firearms.

gotcha.. to clear that up..

 

transporting in accordance with NJ law in the sense of what NJ defines as being inaccessible... unloaded locked in the trunk and so on.. that was a miscommunication on my part... FOPA covers you state to state.. what I meant by NJ law was simply the manor in which the gun is transported..

 

Yeah, well, there is no legal method to transport a handgun in NJ. And, FOPA does not require you to transport under methods of state laws anyway. So, if FOPA applies, you do not have to follow NJ laws with regard to what is covered by FOPA.

so when you went to VA.. you went DIRECTLY there and then came home? because according to your logic.. that is the only way you are legal...

 

I traveled directly out of the state, with no diversions, while I was in NJ. My return was direct and undiverted, while I was in NJ. My destination was a range.

 

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I like the situation, think it's morally defensible, &c. It's terrible. It's unconstitutional to boot. And with any luck that will be recognized and NJ's regulation regime will be struck down.

 

Also, to be honest, I think someone complying with FOPA will end not being tried; the guy in Newark ended up having charges dropped with a much less clear example of FOPA protection. But I wouldn't have expected some idiot prosecutor to try Brian Aitken either...

 

In the end, I don't want to be Aitken'd. I wish him every measure of success in his appeal, because it will benefit ME. But I don't want to be in that role, either.

I traveled directly out of the state, with no diversions, while I was in NJ. My return was direct and undiverted, while I was in NJ. My destination was a range.

 

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that I like the situation, think it's morally defensible, &c. It's terrible. It's unconstitutional to boot. And with any luck that will be recognized and NJ's regulation regime will be struck down.

 

Also, to be honest, I think someone complying with FOPA will end not being tried; the guy in Newark ended up having charges dropped with a much less clear example of FOPA protection. But I wouldn't have expected some idiot prosecutor to try Brian Aitken either...

 

In the end, I don't want to be Aitken'd. I wish him every measure of success in his appeal, because it will benefit ME. But I don't want to be in that role, either.

 

 

brian went from a point in NJ to another point in NJ with high capacity magazines to boot FOPA does not apply.. that is a vastly different situation.. but I get what you are saying to some degree..

This thread is making my head spin. I'm carrying and that's it!!!

Vladtepes and everyone else, let me make this clear also. I AM WITH YOU GUYS!!! I didn't just pay $170 bucks for a piece of plastic I can't use! I can't STAND NJ's BS. Reason I brought it up is because I'm unsure as to what the actual rules are. I agree, once I leave NJ, what I do is my business as long as its legal. However, say we get pulled over in NJ to or fro, and somehow the cop asks do you have a firearm in the vehicle and you answer yes. The next question is gonna be either where are you headed or where are you coming from.

 

Man, that's a tough position to be in, especially if its really late at night after the ranges and gunsmiths are closed. If what Vlad says is true, all I have to say is I'm heading to or coming from PA and I should be covered by FOPA since its INTERSTATE travel. If I'm using the other argument then if I tell the officer that I'm coming from or going to PA, then I'm not covered under FOPA because I'm not going to an exempted place.

 

Looking at it this way, vlad's argument makes more sense.

 

That is until the other gray area is brought into play. FOPA doesn't specifically define what the place of origin is. Some argue that its your home or property (I believe that). Others argue it means the state in which your trip originates.

 

Since in NJ, you are legal to carry your handgun on your person in your home or business, using the first description works if you start out in NJ without a NJ carry permit. If the latter is true and the state is what they mean by place of origin, then we aren't covered under FOPA unless we have a NJ carry permit.

 

Let me reiterate that I think these nj laws are all hogwash and that I'm just playing devils advocate for the purpose of discussion.