Like many of us, I’ve been following the events in Egypt. Not so much because I care a whole lot about what happens there, but as an observer of the process of the rebellion itself, and of how the various interested parties will eventually shuffle their positions of importance as the process moves forward.

 

It’s estimated that about 15% of the Egyptian population are in ideological agreement with the strict Islamic interpretation of Islamic Law put forward by the Muslim Brotherhood, but the other 85% are so fractured that their voices are being drowned out, and the MB is skillfully taking control of the public discussion.

 

Sound familiar? The small, antagonistic, regressive faction has control of the public space on the issue because the majority can’t get a cohesive and consistent message together well enough to present a united front in opposition of an obviously wrong solution.

 

Sure, the pundits are out in force, intellectualizing and bloviating on both sides, but the very people who are destined to be affected by the outcome are too busy sniping at each other over minute and unimportant details and personal agendas to come together in opposition of what is clearly the wrong direction.

 

This is the lesson we still haven’t learned, and the anti-gun forces of repression will continue to take advantage of our inability to organize until in the end, we too are forced to succumb to the will of what should be an insignificant and fanatical fringe minority.

Am I getting you right in that you are stipulating that our largest hurdle regarding the right to keep and bear arms is the stratification of idealogy regarding gun rights and 2A amongst the pro-gun rights population?

 

A good example are those who are pro-gun rights/2A, but tend to succumb to what the anti-gun crowd refers to as "common-sense gun laws"; i.e. , someone falling for the trap of giving up ground to have gain somewhere else. I remember seeing a post of someone saying it would be OK if they limited magazines to 10 rounds provided we can get national carry as an example.

 

Everyone should understand that any new gun restriction laws that would be acceptable are only those that punish criminals who commit violent crimes with the use of a gun, and reasonable measures to make sure criminals cannot easily obtain or carry guns (CCW permits, NICS check at purchase). Any other restrictive gun laws (AWB, mag caps, .50 cal ban, OGAM, BATF importation rulings, May-issue, etc) have only one purpose, and that is to slowly erode away our (law abiding citizens) gun rights until they are completely gone. The anti's know they can't win with sweeping legislation, so they will ankle bite this year, then go at the knee for the next 5 years, and before you know it they will be at the head.

 

Many gun owners are also apathetic and complacent. I also find this to be a big challenge for the pro gun-rights voice in our country. Not necessarily on this board, but I do have many friends who I classify as pro gun rights, but stop there. No joining of pro gun rights organizations, donations, writing letters to law makers, etc. I really believe there are many many of this same mindset out there, and mobilizing them would be a huge win.

Like many of us, I’ve been following the events in Egypt. Not so much because I care a whole lot about what happens there, but as an observer of the process of the rebellion itself, and of how the various interested parties will eventually shuffle their positions of importance as the process moves forward.

 

It’s estimated that about 15% of the Egyptian population are in ideological agreement with the strict Islamic interpretation of Islamic Law put forward by the Muslim Brotherhood, but the other 85% are so fractured that their voices are being drowned out, and the MB is skillfully taking control of the public discussion.

 

Sound familiar? The small, antagonistic, regressive faction has control of the public space on the issue because the majority can’t get a cohesive and consistent message together well enough to present a united front in opposition of an obviously wrong solution.

 

Sure, the pundits are out in force, intellectualizing and bloviating on both sides, but the very people who are destined to be affected by the outcome are too busy sniping at each other over minute and unimportant details and personal agendas to come together in opposition of what is clearly the wrong direction.

 

This is the lesson we still haven’t learned, and the anti-gun forces of repression will continue to take advantage of our inability to organize until in the end, we too are forced to succumb to the will of what should be an insignificant and fanatical fringe minority.

 

 

Ken- I couldn't agree more... With one exception. You should care about the outcome there. With the proximity of Israel and Egypt having been one of the few non-threat Muslim nations, a flip in Egyptian policy towards Israel could lead to the inhalation of a race.

 

Also something you should research is the following conections Goerge Soros, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Israel is in trouble. And, not only are they entitled to exist but (even with their inteligence transgresions)they are our only allies in the region.

Am I getting you right in that you are stipulating that our largest hurdle regarding the right to keep and bear arms is the stratification of idealogy regarding gun rights and 2A amongst the pro-gun rights population?

 

A good example are those who are pro-gun rights/2A, but tend to succumb to what the anti-gun crowd refers to as "common-sense gun laws"; i.e. , someone falling for the trap of giving up ground to have gain somewhere else. I remember seeing a post of someone saying it would be OK if they limited magazines to 10 rounds provided we can get national carry as an example.

 

Everyone should understand that any new gun restriction laws that would be acceptable are only those that punish criminals who commit violent crimes with the use of a gun, and reasonable measures to make sure criminals cannot easily obtain or carry guns (CCW permits, NICS check at purchase). Any other restrictive gun laws (AWB, mag caps, .50 cal ban, OGAM, BATF importation rulings, May-issue, etc) have only one purpose, and that is to slowly erode away our (law abiding citizens) gun rights until they are completely gone. The anti's know they can't win with sweeping legislation, so they will ankle bite this year, then go at the knee for the next 5 years, and before you know it they will be at the head.

 

Many gun owners are also apathetic and complacent. I also find this to be a big challenge for the pro gun-rights voice in our country. Not necessarily on this board, but I do have many friends who I classify as pro gun rights, but stop there. No joining of pro gun rights organizations, donations, writing letters to law makers, etc. I really believe there are many many of this same mindset out there, and mobilizing them would be a huge win.

 

+1 Yes I was shocked to hear one member here state "What do you need more than 10 rounds for?" To paraphrase, he said since these criminal are generally foiled during mag changes, 10 round mag would save lives and it doesn't effect us(gun folks) because we are quick with tactical mag changes.

 

Don't give up an inch... Remember the camel's nose under the tent!

Many gun owners are also apathetic and complacent.

 

Unfortunately, that's pretty much everyone nowadays.

Am I getting you right in that you are stipulating that our largest hurdle regarding the right to keep and bear arms is the stratification of idealogy regarding gun rights and 2A amongst the pro-gun rights population?

The simple answer is yes.

 

And, not only among the pro-2A population, but among the entire NJ shooting community, the non-shooting gun owners, and the non-gun owning population. Basically, among everyone who isn't vocally anti in their ideology.

 

Our greatest hurdle is education. We've gotten preaching to the faithful down to a science, and we happily harrumph, harrumph in agreement when some rare gem of insight is brought up, but the rest of the population needs to be brought into the debate, and the antis are addressing them directly and effectively, with a clear and concise argument, while we argue incessantly among ourselves about relatively insignificant details.

 

It may be time to stop rearranging the deck chairs, and take a look at the rising water line.

 

The harrumphers...

I completely agree with you.

 

Any suggestions on how to educate the masses? We face monumental distractions, short attention spans, and a majorly anti-gun biased news media.

 

The one thing that the anti's have done well is their effort to brand gun owners as "gun nuts without common sense". This has been resonating with the "I could care less about guns, but if they say it makes me safer, I'll go with that" crowd. The non-gun owning populace that relates to this are very malleable in their thoughts. It really comes down to who gets their attention first, and makes the better compelling argument. The attention part is the difficult area, with the news media outlets feeding mostly anti-gun rhetoric.

 

Where I think we could make big waves is the non-shooting gun owning population. I have at least 3 friends that fall in this category. They own guns, but maybe shoot them once a year (when I drag them out). None of them join an organization, and none of them actively research or seek out recent events around gun rights. They agree with the arguments that I present, but they pretty much stop there.

 

My challenge is what to give them to read in whatever media format, that outlines gun right current events and the real bottom line on what is going on around it and how it could affect them. I'm not talking about NRA news or reading through this forum. It needs to be to the point, how it affects them and others, who are the forces behind it (elected officials and groups), and what they can do about it. Remember, short attention spans and distractions. People don't want to read 6 page fear-monger newsletter about how "Obama and the UN wants to take your guns away". They want real intellectual and factual information with substance and clear options on how they can act or get involved.

My challenge is what to give them to read in whatever media format, that outlines gun right current events and the real bottom line on what is going on around it and how it could affect them. I'm not talking about NRA news or reading through this forum. It needs to be to the point, how it affects them and others, who are the forces behind it (elected officials and groups), and what they can do about it. Remember, short attention spans and distractions. People don't want to read 6 page fear-monger newsletter about how "Obama and the UN wants to take your guns away". They want real intellectual and factual information with substance and clear options on how they can act or get involved.

If only there was a New Jersey based organization chartered to that precise goal, to provide a venue where information regarding the current status of gun rights activism in NJ could be easily found, where one could find information about pending legislation and who is supporting/opposing it, where notable and respected members of the legislative and firearms communities could present their opinions and perspectives, where people could contribute to the cause proudly and be counted among the supporters of freedom, where, where, where...

 

If only such an organization existed.

Keepandbeararms has some pretty good articles on reaching the uniformed and gun owners lacking motivation.

Ken- I couldn't agree more... With one exception. You should care about the outcome there. With the proximity of Israel and Egypt having been one of the few non-threat Muslim nations, a flip in Egyptian policy towards Israel could lead to the inhalation of a race.

 

Also something you should research is the following conections Goerge Soros, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Israel is in trouble. And, not only are they entitled to exist but (even with their inteligence transgresions)they are our only allies in the region.

 

 

Egypt is not even close to being capable of destroying Israel.

If only there was a New Jersey based organization chartered to that precise goal, to provide a venue where information regarding the current status of gun rights activism in NJ could be easily found, where one could find information about pending legislation and who is supporting/opposing it, where notable and respected members of the legislative and firearms communities could present their opinions and perspectives, where people could contribute to the cause proudly and be counted among the supporters of freedom, where, where, where...

 

If only such an organization existed.

 

Yes, I am a member of NJ2AS and NJCSD if they are some examples that you are sarcastically referring to. Bravo to your comedy relief efforts.

 

I applaud the efforts of both groups for doing a fantastic job. I'm just not convinced the initial feel and materials on both of their sites is upfront friendly to an easily distracted and slightly apathetic non-shooting gun owner, and especially non-gun owners for that matter. Definately a right direction, and I am in no way bashing or portraying these groups in any negative manner.

Yes, I am a member of NJ2AS and NJCSD if they are some examples that you are sarcastically referring to. Bravo to your comedy relief efforts.

 

I applaud the efforts of both groups for doing a fantastic job. I'm just not convinced the initial feel and materials on both of their sites is upfront friendly to an easily distracted and slightly apathetic non-shooting gun owner, and especially non-gun owners for that matter. Definately a right direction, and I am in no way bashing or portraying these groups in any negative manner.

As do I. And I feel the same about ANJRPC. I'm not trying to put any group in a public position where they need to explain themselves or their strategies here. They've made more progress towards slowing down the dismantling of our rights than any groups before them.

 

My point is that there are any number of directions an advocacy group can take towards educating and informing beyond their existing core of true believers, and those techniques should be in the arsenal of the groups fighting for our rights here in Fortress New Jersey. They're certainly in the arsenals of the groups fighting against us, and we just steadfastly refuse to learn from our enemies, no matter how successfully they exercise their skills against us at every turn.

 

Simplicity in the message is important.

 

It isn't whether 15 rounds is less deadly than 16, it's the stupidity and ineffectiveness of the limitation that we should be addressing. You don't debate the number, you discredit the underlying faulty reasoning.

 

You don't argue whether XYZ is substantially identical to ABC, you pointedly question and discredit the reasoning behind the rules.

 

Gotta get to the basics, or we'll be arguing about the details until the very day they come for our guns.

Egypt is not even close to being capable of destroying Israel.

 

Mike - Look at the region overall if Egypt tumbles. It won't be just Egypt against Israel.

Mike - Look at the region overall if Egypt tumbles. It won't be just Egypt against Israel.

 

It would require EVERY arab country to gang up on them with NO support from us or anyone else to help Israel in order for them to lose.

 

There is not one arab or muslim state that has any credible military. Their is no leadership, no training and no competency in the middle east aside from Israel (aside from the fact that they are the only middle east country that has nukes).

 

Obama may not act if someone attacks Israel, but Congress sure will. AS will Britain, Australia, Japan and now most likely Russia since they have entered into Joint dev on UAV's, etc. Don't think for a sec Germany wouldn't jump in to. They STILL pay reparations for WWII!

 

If Egypt falls, it will suck for Israel for sure, but it hardly spells there demise!

It would require EVERY arab country to gang up on them with NO support from us or anyone else to help Israel in order for them to lose.

 

There is not one arab or muslim state that has any credible military. Their is no leadership, no training and no competency in the middle east aside from Israel (aside from the fact that they are the only middle east country that has nukes).

 

Israel has a great military and great equipment but they have been in political disarray for a long time. The last invasion of Lebanon was a failure. Israel is very small, and surrounded by enemies on all sides. Moreso lately. One strategic mistake, and they are finished. Perhaps with an outgoing nuclear retaliatory response.

 

Israel has won most of their wars by striking first. That is necessary for them to survive, and those days might be over politically. At least one they won by superior determination and luck.

 

Obama may not act if someone attacks Israel, but Congress sure will. AS will Britain, Australia, Japan and now most likely Russia since they have entered into Joint dev on UAV's, etc. Don't think for a sec Germany wouldn't jump in to. They STILL pay reparations for WWII!

 

If Israel faces a true, fully committed, all-out combined attack, at all costs, it will be decided in days. Not weeks. Perhaps hours.

Israel is more then prepared and ready to defend their ground. Politics and bureaucracy for the most part would not hinder those efforts. Asymmetric warfare a concern? Not really; in fact I think the Israeli forces would be chomping at the bit for unconventional warfare.

As for the rest of that region not being capable though... eh. I think people underestimate the capabilities of the military forces that Southwest Asian countries boast. With that said, its difficult enough to encroach upon an entrenched force-- let alone Israel. Those countries and organizations know that, and, as I stated above, I believe if there ever was confrontation-- it would be asymmetric... so, all the tanks, aircraft, troops, etc., really don't account for much.

 

As for what Ken is saying... I think its a pretty complicated matter as a whole. I'm a big believer that it takes great tragedy or a great miracle for the masses to pull their head out of their bum... and even that is short-lived (note: post-9/11).

I think a lot of it has to do with the attitude of Americans, as well as a super power. Its interesting because when traveling to other parts of the world in what are well-to-do places, what it means to be of that nationality greatly differs (and it varies from place to place).

Now, before you take what I said out of context, I'm not saying that the American attitude is bad. The American attitude can and does breed both good and bad... good being those who don't forget what this country was and why its so significant (we were the first major revolution that was created anew; compared to revolutions in which the countries had a history to reflect upon). The bad being either when people start taking things for granted (materialization being an example), or claim modernity is the only

way.

Off-topic? Slightly, yes, but it goes back to what you're saying because I think it is impossible to communicate solidly the message we (as the responsible firearms community) want to spread to all people. There are social factors that, in the last few decades, have changed the contemporary disposition of Americans (I think generally speaking, not for the better). I think the message that has to be spread is instead focusing on how to maintain a national identity, first, without becoming insensitive to ethnic and cultural differences. Because really at the end of the day, firearms is only an aspect of our American identity (or should be for everyone). To me, trying to pound the same rhetoric over is, sadly, pointless as the world is changing rapidly-- and the message that may hold a certain weight to certain communities are non-relevant to others. By making an identity relevant, things such as firearms and what they should mean as a symbol again become relevant.

 

Sorry for being long-winded.