this is just a hypothetical anyways. In real life I would soil myself when confronted with armed men trying to take my arms away, which would be moot since they where all lost in a tragic boating accident anyways.

Don't forget that during Katrina people were shooting at rescue helicopters and other emergency workers.

 

Not that it justifies taking and losing peoples firearms, but what would an oath protector do when being shot at for not overloading their rescue vehicle?

It's going to take a lot of excavating and draining a couple of lakes, but sure. Oh, by the way, I haven't been taken my meds and haven't been right since that house fell on my wife. Hey, you look cute, wanna search me first?

NJ Policeman: Sir, stop with the bs. When I run your address in our database it shows me the purchase permits issued to you. Give me your sh*t.

 

NJ Citizen: Oh.

 

 

More Likely NJ Cop: You want me to do WHAT???? <Cough Cough Cough> Gee i just seemed to have come down with a sudden case of the Flaming Whatsis..i'm going to the doc, book me off sick Cap.

This is a tough call, but remember your local and State Police have all your hand gun purchases on record. They get a copy of all issued permits.

 

 

Inherited guns or guns purchased while a resident of a different state aren't in their registration database.

This was brought up once before. Best plan is to give them some "bait guns" even a handgun or two that has been "voluntarily registered" when you used your PP. The rest ... "Sold the rest of them before all this SHTF, sure wish I hadn't... but then again you would take them all anyway... jokingly". Both you and the cop/military gets to save face. They got their guns, you kept your guns (most of them), they move onto the next house....

I am not mad.. disgruntled.. or anything in between.. but if a thief shows up to my house.. and wants to steal the items that I have legally and justly purchased.. the only mindset I can apply is that it will likely end poorly for all involved.. that is not a threat of violence.. or an attempt to be overly dramatic... but IF in this hypothetical situation I have lost all faith in the government to create order, and maintain control.. then I am left with one option.. and that is the option to defend myself.. try to rob me of those tools and it is akin to putting me and my family in direct peril.. and that is something I am simply not OK with..

and further.. if a hypothetical situation like this happened.. you SHOULD already be out the door.. headed for a better place.. a place where no one is knocking on doors..

NJ Policeman: Sir, stop with the bs. When I run your address in our database it shows me the purchase permits issued to you. Give me your sh*t.

 

NJ Citizen: Oh.

Does anyone know if PPP records are even computerized? I know they keep the paper records at your towns PD and the SP gets a copy but are they actually putting them into a computer? I know even after you sell a handgun they still keep a copy of the PPP in your file forever, so in an event like this, they could be chasing a lot of ghosts.

 

As far as long guns, unless your updating your local PD about your purchases on your on volition, they wouldn't know what you even own. AR's, AK's and shotties make for better riot control than handguns anyway.

Does anyone know if PPP records are even computerized?

 

Yes. Running your name pulls up all pistols you've purchases since the system went online instantly.

Me I can be down right mean as a rattle snake and tough as nails. I am not afraid of anything in this world or the next. F-em. The govts outlook in any natural disaster is job one save the govt. Job 2 make sure the govt has iron grip control over the population regardless of what laws might have to be broken, it's for the greater good(there's) dont you know. I could look em in the eye right down the sights of my gun as they approach my door.

However there is a 3 year old that will need me more at that moment in time then she would at any other time in her life. So I would fold like a cheap towel.

So I will chose life over liberty at that moment in time and try and do the best I can to at least save a little protection for my family.

 

How a man acts as a lone person is totally different from how he would/will act as a father.

That is how the wild west was tamed my friends. It is the very foundation that all civilizations that advance are based on.

I'll take the 5th and will put my foil hat on and not talk about this any longer.

 

Harry

Yes. Running your SBI/FID number pulls up all pistols you've purchases since the system went online instantly.

Do you know how long ago this was?

 

Leave it to NJ, we need to do all this paper work BS only for them to put it in a database anyway, they could save us all a bunch of time and money and allow the dealer to print out a permit at the time of sale (assuming we can't scrap the permit system altogether).

Do you know how long ago this was?

 

Probably the last 10yrs or so.

Probably the last 10yrs or so.

Thanks, that's why this forum is so great, I've learned more here in the last 6 months than in the last 20 or so years I've been buying guns.

Me I can be down right mean as a rattle snake and tough as nails. I am not afraid of anything in this world or the next. F-em. The govts outlook in any natural disaster is job one save the govt. Job 2 make sure the govt has iron grip control over the population regardless of what laws might have to be broken, it's for the greater good(there's) dont you know. I could look em in the eye right down the sights of my gun as they approach my door.

However there is a 3 year old that will need me more at that moment in time then she would at any other time in her life. So I would fold like a cheap towel.

So I will chose life over liberty at that moment in time and try and do the best I can to at least save a little protection for my family.

 

How a man acts as a lone person is totally different from how he would/will act as a father.

That is how the wild west was tamed my friends. It is the very foundation that all civilizations that advance are based on.

 

I have 3 children and a wife. I am a law abiding citizen and have never cheated on taxes, pay all my bills on time, give to those who are needy and contribute greatly to society. I have played by the rules even when the rules are unjust! However, there is something that our forefathers asked us to do to preserve freedom:

 

Declaration of Independence:

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Would you rally to the defense of your neighbor??

 

 

while I don't think about it day in or day out.. while I do not lose sleep over it.. I know where I would go.. and who I would bring... and for me.. that is about all I need to know..

After seeing what happened during katrina, im thinking about getting one of those tubes and burying a few in the backyard lol. Really sucks that we have to think this way...

In reading the thread, I'm thinking that it would be worth my while to acquire an additional firearm for my collection via some means that is 100% legal, but will not necessarily be included among the state's records of my purchases. I could store it seperately from y other firearms in a relatively concealed location within my home.

 

Assuming this was a large scale confiscation related to a disaester, I can't imagine they'd have the resources to literally turn my house upside down. I would simply make it clear that I do not to consent to any searches and I will not answer any questions. I might point them to my actual gun safe just to avoid them trashing the place arbitrarily. Beyond that, I would decline to answer any questions like "Is this all your guns?" "How many do you have?" as well as any questions entirely unrelated to the guns so that my response to the firearms questions did not seem out of place.

 

Could they still tear my entire house appart and still find the hidden one? It's possible, but again, it seems unlikely that they would be inclined waste that kind of time if their search of my gun safe has already turned up every single firearm they have a record of me buying and they still have to go to every other house in my neighborhood.

 

End result if that actually goes as planned: Wrongfully robbed of my legal possessions, which I would absolutely take to court once the event had passed, but at least I would A) still have a means of self defense, B) have not done anything illegal [best I can tell] & C) have avoided a conflict with the police that could have ended with me being arrested/shot/etc.

Yes - go purchase a long gun legally from out of state

Yes - go purchase a long gun legally from out of state

 

How is that done? It has to go through Nics, correct? They also get your DL information and need to go through a NJ FFL? I don't believe I could go into PA and simply buy a gun while living in NJ.

 

Maybe a friend of mine that lives in PA could buy one and give it to me on my birthday perhaps?

 

BTW, we live in NJ and for those who say they (The NJ government) would simply come in your home and take a few guns, I think you forget YOU LIVE IN NJ! Metal detectors are not expensive and "corrupt governments" know the tricks.

How is that done? It has to go through Nics, correct? They also get your DL information and need to go through a NJ FFL? I don't believe I could go into PA and simply buy a gun while living in NJ.

 

Maybe a friend of mine that lives in PA could buy one and give it to me on my birthday perhaps?

 

BTW, we live in NJ and for those who say they (The NJ government) would simply come in your home and take a few guns, I think you forget YOU LIVE IN NJ! Metal detectors are not expensive and "corrupt governments" know the tricks.

 

If you buy through a dealer or gun show, all they need to do is fill out a NJ COE.

Wrongfully robbed of my legal possessions, which I would absolutely take to court once the event had passed

 

Ask the people who had their guns taken away during Katrina how this is working out for them.

Ask the people who had their guns taken away during Katrina how this is working out for them.

 

 

I didn't claim it would be easy or necessarily successful. I'm well aware that those people are still fighting and will likely never see adequate justice for what was done. I simply wanted to make it clear that my strategy was to have a plan B for self defense, avoid actually fighting with the police over the matter [which would NOT end with me keeping my guns or my freedom if the confiscations are already under way], but fight like Hell to right the wrong in a setting where the police won't have the authority to simply do as they please [court].

Metal detectors are not expensive

Buy a Glock!! They are undetectable by metal detectors!!!! /sarcasm

How is that done?

 

 

For long guns, perfectly legal. You have to comply with the laws of both states (point of purchase and place of residency). Which means you have to have a FPID and a COE.

 

You could do this in NJ also, since there is no individual record of long arms purchased. NICS (PICS in PA) records, by law, cannot be retained past a certain time limit (which escapes me, but I want to say 30 days), unless there is a problem; i.e. NICS rejection with an appeal. The COE only goes to you and the selling dealer. The 4473 is retained by the selling dealer. So any state should work.

 

If it truly came down to a confiscation scheme, the gov't entity would visit FFL's first and work from the 4473's.

 

I think it would come to an armed rebellion before that happened. Remember that during the American Revolution only 20% of the population supported it and only 3% actually participated.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Ok, just for kicks, let's think of a "back of the envelope" scenario.

 

Now we have to figure a couple of things in here: New Jersey is fundamentally different than Louisiana when it comes to firearm ownership. If you look at the Washington Post, New Jersey has about 12% firearm ownership. Louisiana has about 44% firearm ownership.

 

My source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/health/interactives/guns/ownership.html

 

I'm going to totally reject the whole "Zombies/Pandemic/Socialist Dictatorship" as either #1. Far fetched or #2. so calamitous that there is basically nothing we can do about it. I'm also going to reject the "boiling frog" scenario where our rights are lost slowly, until we are limited to O/U shotguns and bolt-action .22's much like England is today. I don't see that as much of a possibility after Heller and McDonald.

 

So that leaves us with the "Hurricane" Scenario. So consider this the wargamed scenario from the expert tactical mind of a mildly overweight middle-aged Jewish systems analyst. Hey, I never said I was General Robert E. Lee.

 

So let's say a monster hurricane hits the Mid-Atlantic. New York, Jersey Shore, Delaware and Maryland are hit. Then, by an unlikely set of circumstances, Oyster Creek Generating Station in Forked River, suffers a pump failure, and the workers there cannot cool the reactor. This leads to a fire and explosion in the reactor building. Radioactive isotopes are getting thrown into the air, just like they were at the Fukushima-Daiichi plant in Japan.

 

The NJ State government decides to evacuate a 25 mile radius around the plant. In order to prevent crime and looting in the exclusion zone, residents in the zone are instructed to surrender their weapons when police come to their home as a condition of evacuation. Armed residents may stay in their home, but they may not evacuate with their firearms, they will not be allowed to enter a Red Cross Shelter with firearms, and they will not receive any rescue or police services after the initial request to evacuate. If you stay behind with your guns, you are on your own.

 

 

This effects almost all of the 576,567 residents of Ocean County and a number of residents in Burlington County. This also effects the largest cities in the area, Toms River (94,660 inhabitance), Brick (76,119 inhabitance) Lakewood (60,352 inhabitants).

 

We have 2,768 state troopers. I don't have figures on the police departments of Toms River, Brick, and Lakewood, but I know for a fact that Camden has 460 officers for a town of 77,344 inhabitance. We can also assume that these Ocean County cities have less crime and hence fewer officers, so I'd assume that these towns probably have a more Cherry Hill like structure of 120 officers per town for a total of 360 officers in those large towns.

 

Add in the small towns like Waretown or Surf City, and I think we can assume that we have about 500 local law enforcement.

 

Now let's cut the troopers by 1/3rd since troopers still have to police the rest of the state, but the majority will be sent to the Ocean County Evacuation Zone. This leaves us with 1826 Troopers.

 

Lets also assume that our state's law enforcement officers are honest (since for the most part, they are). Our police officers are compensated well unlike NOLA police officers, so we probably won't see the 80% desertion rate like we saw from the NOLA police after Katrina. But there may be some officers that just can't work because they have been injured in the hurricane, they really are dishonest or thinking only of themselves, or they simply can't get to work. So let's cut the police by 90%.

 

This leaves us with:

 

1644 Troopers.

450 local law enforcement.

 

Now let's look at the New Jersey National Guard. This is a force of roughly 9000 soldiers. Let's do the same thing that we did to the police and cut them by 90% because some might still be digging out or chose not to show up. Now we have 8100 soldiers. I know that the Army devotes a couple of support soldiers for every fighting soldier and they call this "the tooth to tail" ratio. A quick Google search reveals ratios of 1-1,1-4, 1-7 and 1-10 for the tooth to tail. So let's average it out and say that the National Guard tooth-to-tail ratio is 1-6. This means that for every 1 soldier paroling the streets, there will be 6 others feeding him, clothing him, and repairing his vehicles.

 

Now, effectively, we are down to 1377 National Guardsman patrolling the streets.

 

This leaves us with

1644 Troopers.

450 local law enforcement.

1377 National Guard.

 

For a total of

3471 Law Enforcement.

 

Let's split this into two shifts of 12 hour days. So at any given time, 1735 law enforcement officers are at work evacuating people in Ocean County.

 

I estimate that it would take me about 5 minutes to knock on a door, speak to the homeowner, inform the homeowner of the evacuation, and move on to the next home. Let's divide the inhabitance by 3 to account for families, children and roomates. So I think we can assume that there are 192189 dwellings in Ocean County. It would take 16915 man hours to speak to everybody in each dwelling and notify them of the evacuation. So if we devote every single one of the day shift's 1735 officers, it will take us about 9.2 hours to notify everybody in Ocean County. Now this means that nobody is controlling traffic or protecting evacuation centers. Law enforcement is just going door to door notifying of the evacuation and letting people know that they must turn in their weapons if they want to leave.

 

The Ocean County area is somewhat more rural and conservative than other parts of the state, so we can assume that there may be more than 12% gun ownership. So let's bump ownership up to 15%. Now of the 192189 dwellings, 28,828 of them have guns that need to be confiscated. I know that it takes me about 15 minutes for me to crack the safe and get everything boxed up for a range trip. It will probably take at least 15 minutes for the police to record each serial number for evidence and confiscation. So let's assume that it takes 30 minutes to confiscate every gun in a home. So now we need to add (28828*30)/60 or 14414 man hours to 16915 for a total of 31,329 man hours or 18 hours. And this is assuming that every single one of the police officers on duty is devoted to going from house to house confiscating weapons.

 

Like I said, this is a back of the envelope calculation. I just don't see how the state could devote the resources to disarming a population when it effectively doubles the evacuation time. If we scale back the law enforcement presence (because you will have police / National Guard at checkpoints and at evacuation centers), you will see that evacuation time increases dramatically. Mathematically, it just doesn't make sense to confiscate anybody's weapons.

 

I don't think that the state would ever have the time or the inclination to do this.

 

EDIT:

 

I just realized that the police or National Guard would operate in at least teams of 2 possibly 3 or 4. Or they would mate 1 policeman with 3 National Guardsman since that is how many can fit in a vehicle. This would bring the best case evacuation/confiscation time to 72 hours or 3 24 hour days. That is a long time when you are trying to get people out of a dangerous area.

 

I just think that the cognitive leap to confiscate firearms wouldn't be there. I could definitely see people being searched before they entered a shelter as a condition for entry (and the Red Cross would probably be confiscating kitchen knives and multi-tools as well). I could see people being asked to surrender their arms before they get into a Coast Guard boat. But I don't see time-consuming roadblocks being set up to confiscate weapons during evacuation. I simply don't think that there is enough gun culture in this state to make the possession of weapons a concern.

If you buy through a dealer or gun show, all they need to do is fill out a NJ COE.

 

The COE is retained by the transferor pursuant to NJSA 2C:58-3b and a copy is retained by the buyer. Does anybody know what info is given during the NICS call by the transferor? Any information regarding the transfer like Make, Model, Serial, etc.?

I don't know if your post impresses me or has me concerned....

 

Anyway, thanks for your input. I live about 8 minutes from Philly so you are welcome to meet at my home if evacuated.

I don't know if your post impresses me or has me concerned....

 

Anyway, thanks for your input. I live about 8 minutes from Philly so you are welcome to meet at my home if evacuated.

 

How will you identify him in the hoarde? Perhaps his NJGF ID badge...