This is why I never understood USPSA or IDPA. In order to compete, you need guns that are usually built for "stages". Plus the "stages" are unrealistic and don't make any sense. Noone uses snubbies or 380s, which is what alot of people carry.

 

Now, if they made a division built on pocket guns, then I might bite.

 

Shoot Production then. It's a stock weapon with zero add ons.

 

Edit. I have only shot 2 matches so far but it's with a bone stock Beretta. That may not ever be a carry gun due to it's size but I can tell you right now that I am a better shooter due to just 2 days shooting USPSA then I would have been without. Trigger time under pressure (time) and being on the move while engaging targets is way more exposure than most shooters who stand at a range and shoot at a target will ever see. That in itself makes me think that I am better of in a gunfight than someone who hasn't had those experiences. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

concealed carry stage, I might go

tactical shooting stage, I might go

It's all competition stuff that I really don't like. It's all stuff I wouldn't do or carry in a real situation.

Ray Ray, you sure your not confusing USPSA with IDPA. IDPA is pretty much a stock gun competition. Its 90% bone stock sigs and glocks. And in fact some IDPA matches have a BUG side match. (BUG=Back up gun) And it has to be an actual subcompact or revolver. And in IDPA its always in cover and tactical (except for a qualifier match where you dont have to wear a cover garment which I actually never understood)

10 years ago everyone was saying red dots used in competition have no purpose on real life guns. Today I read about top trainers like Vickers and others experimenting with RMR dots on their M&Ps. What was held an absolute in years past it is no longer so absolute.

I think your time frame may be a little off, as the military has been using red dots/OEGs as far back as vietnam, and Aimpoints were issued sights 10 years ago. As far as red dots on pistols, that is nothing new in combative circles either, despite Gabe Suarez saying he invented it. I first put a Docter Optic sight on one of my Glocks in 2004 to test it out,and while I have shot a few competitions for fun, I am definitely not focused on competition.

I wanted to get into IDPA or USPSA, but I don't like the rules and the clock. It's not realistic and the targets aren't physically correct, plus people are looking to shave time and it's not really about that. It's about surviving.

As a relative novice to USPSA and IDPA, I've been trying different things and experimenting with different ways of shooting. I also play airsoft with some of the same equipment that I use for my other training. I've kept in mind that both USPSA and IDPA are games with different sets of rules and ways to shoot. IDPA depends more on cover and concealment, while USPSA is more running and gunning. Supplementing this for myself is some private training, as well as my Airsoft training and experience.hat

 

I may be sounding mall-ninja'esque here with all of this, but this makes me feel like I have at least a step up from the people who will just stand and punch holes in paper.

 

Not to say that airsoft is an excellent training tool either - I have seen many idiotic things done by both kids and adults, however if you have experienced players as well as military/ex-military teaching/training, you do learn things.

This is what I don't like, and it serves no purpose other than fun and competition.

 

This of course is assuming you own guns for self protection and not just competition.

I'll offer again. Come to the shoot house and run it as if it were a uspsa match. It will be an eye opener for you.

 

Tosser, I'll take you up on that offer. Tell me when and where I can join you and pending schedules and life priorities, I'll join you.

 

I think this sounds like a great idea. Lets get a bunch of guys together and do some force on force, airsoft or sims, in the shoot house, and see what happens. I think a lot of guys would find this fun and intresting, and possibly educational!

As a relative novice to USPSA and IDPA, I've been trying different things and experimenting with different ways of shooting. I also play airsoft with some of the same equipment that I use for my other training. I've kept in mind that both USPSA and IDPA are games with different sets of rules and ways to shoot. IDPA depends more on cover and concealment, while USPSA is more running and gunning. Supplementing this for myself is some private training, as well as my Airsoft training and experience.hat

 

I may be sounding mall-ninja'esque here with all of this, but this makes me feel like I have at least a step up from the people who will just stand and punch holes in paper.

 

Not to say that airsoft is an excellent training tool either - I have seen many idiotic things done by both kids and adults, however if you have experienced players as well as military/ex-military teaching/training, you do learn things.

 

Good post Nick, and that middle line is perfect. People who are happy walking in to a range and standing and shooting are getting nothing in regards to shooting.

Tosser, I'll take you up on that offer. Tell me when and where I can join you and pending schedules and life priorities, I'll join you. PM with the information please. I take every opportunity to learn something new, and I'm not claiming to be an expert, so if you are offering to teach, I'll show up willing learn.

 

However I'm not asking for an example because I'm being willfully obtuse. Right now you are asking me to believe that USPSA get people killed because other people have stated so even though no one has ever shown me proof of it. I'm sorry but that is to much like religion for me. Please REREAD what I typed, I don't claim that USPSA "tactics" are suitable for self defense, in fact I fully agree with you that how we move through a stage is idiotic if it was a life and death scenario. The problem I have is that there is a huge gap between "USPSA is not self defense training" and "USPSA will get you killed". It is like saying race car drivers can't drive a car on the road without running into a tree.

I've seen you shot both and I would love to witness that!!! Can I???

I'm down for anything "tactical" in mind as it can be used in the upcoming zombie take-over.

This is why I never understood USPSA or IDPA. In order to compete, you need guns that are usually built for "stages".

 

Production division is now one of the most popular divisions in USPSA.

 

Plus the "stages" are unrealistic and don't make any sense.

 

Stages are abstract tests of various shooting skills. They make at least as much sense as any other sports shooting.

 

Now, if they made a division built on pocket guns, then I might bite.

 

Your absence will be mourned.

Production division is now one of the most popular divisions in USPSA.

 

 

 

Stages are abstract tests of various shooting skills. They make at least as much sense as any other sports shooting.

 

 

 

Your absence will be mourned.

 

What?

 

Pass

 

Rules are meant to be broken, and that's how I view shooting.

I've seen you shot both and I would love to witness that!!! Can I???

 

Oh, I have no doubt I'll get my a** kicked, I would expect nothing else in someone elses house, me with no formal training. The question is how badly. I'm used to having my a** kicked by better shooters so that doesn't scare me.

This is what I don't like, and it serves no purpose other than fun and competition.

 

 

Hmm...rapid target acquisition, moving into and out of positions, shooting on the move, shooting fast and accurately. I am sure none of this has any practical application whatsoever.

 

Going to the range a few times a year and doing a two week tactical course will certainly prepare you for zombies much better.

What?

 

 

 

Rules are meant to be broken, and that's how I view shooting.

 

You are an ignorant prick and I have nothing more to say to you.

You are an ignorant prick and I have nothing more to say to you.

 

Good

Oh, I have no doubt I'll get my a** kicked, I would expect nothing else in someone elses house, me with no formal training. The question is how badly. I'm used to having my a** kicked by better shooters so that doesn't scare me.

 

BTW I am up for this as well.

Hmm...rapid target acquisition, moving into and out of positions, shooting on the move, shooting fast and accurately. I am sure none of this has any practical application whatsoever.

 

Going to the range a few times a year and doing a two week tactical course will certainly prepare you for zombies much better.

 

Yeah right, using a 3000 dollar gun with a trigger job, action job and bells and whistles and the stage is planned. Everything that will happen in the real world. I'm defending myself against the crack head that lives in the projects behind my house that is on a 3 day binge that wants my scrap metal in the basement.

Here is one thing every "gun games will get you killed" guy seems to miss. In the situation of real stress you will never perform better, only worse. If you can not hit a target fast, can't hit a target on the move, cant hit a target from an uncomfortable position, hit a target shooting with your weak hand - in the context of the game with the only stress provided by a timer - then what makes you think you will do any better if there are bullets coming the other way?

Here ya go Ray Ray. In IDPA you always shoot from cover if available.

 

I'm down for anything "tactical" in mind as it can be used in the upcoming zombie take-over.

 

How about it Shane and Tosser, I have no formal training, and I don't know if Ray does or does not. I have bad USPSA habits, he doesn't.

 

Do you want to run us both through the same shoot house, score us fairly, and see who is better or worse? If my bad habits get me killed more then his lack of bad USPSA habits?

 

I have no doubt that both you are better then me, after all you train at this specific scenario all the time, where I don't. But lets compare a non-USPSA shooter to a USPSA shooter.

Thanks Shane, that looks fun!

How about it Shane and Tosser, I have no formal training, and I don't know if Ray does or does not. I have bad USPSA habits, he doesn't.

 

Do you want to run us both through the same shoot house, score us fairly, and see who is better or worse? If my bad habits get me killed more then his lack of bad USPSA habits?

 

I have no doubt that both you are better then me, after all you train at this specific scenario all the time, where I don't. But lets compare a non-USPSA shooter to a USPSA shooter.

 

No training, just some crazy stuff I do in Pennsy and local here with my crew.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk but I have opinions, strong opinions, but so does some of my fellow members here. No hard feelings.

Ray you gotta come try IDPA with me then.

Oh, I have no doubt I'll get my a** kicked, I would expect nothing else in someone elses house, me with no formal training. The question is how badly. I'm used to having my a** kicked by better shooters so that doesn't scare me.

BTW I am up for this as well.

I find the discussion of getting asses kicked interesting, as I find where most people are lacking in force on force is at contact range. Many are great shooters, as I am sure you both are, but lack any skills to deal with an opponent, armed or not, at contact ranges. It is surprising how many people get shot with their own gun in up close and personal force on force work.

 

That being said, most real life violent encounters do not occur at 10 yards, but under 3.

Oh, I have no doubt I'll get my a** kicked, I would expect nothing else in someone elses house, me with no formal training. The question is how badly. I'm used to having my a** kicked by better shooters so that doesn't scare me.

I just think it will be something very interesting to watch, I don't think you'll get your a** kicked that's why I wanna be there

Slav, as usual your missing the point and clearly havent read all the posts. If its worth repeating several times, whats one more... No douubt gun handling and stress indoc are advantages gained by just about any competitive shooting as has been said repeatedly in this thread. The concern is if you only shoot a type of competition A LOT more than training or other types that it would likely be an issue because under real stress you will do what you did most. So if you shoot a metric ton of USPSA and your used to just popping out into the open, you might do that very same thing in a real situation. Or you might go out in the open while reloading or you might go through mags like water because your used to having 4......

Here is one thing every "gun games will get you killed" guy seems to miss. In the situation of real stress you will never perform better, only worse. If you can not hit a target fast, can't hit a target on the move, cant hit a target from an uncomfortable position, hit a target shooting with your weak hand - in the context of the game with the only stress provided by a timer - then what makes you think you will do any better if there are bullets coming the other way?

 

 

Yes and reverting back a skillset other than gun games, will be better for you.

 

 

When you enter a stress environment your fine motor skills deteriorate and you get tunnel vision, blood rushes to your head and a slew of sympathetic nervous system reactions. The most important factors IMHO involve gross motor movements. Look up point shooting... that is very realistic to an actually pistol based scenario for most of us.

I have no hard feelings towards anyone Ray, no worries. My point is the original statement, in its essence, is that my bad USPSA habits will get me killed. My position is that while I have no doubt that train professionals will perform better then me, given the choice between shooting USPSA and not shooting USPSA, by the professionals rules, which one of us will get killed MORE in a scenario of their choosing. I think that would be an interesting experiment.