Is this judicial approach normal or usual when dealing with this type of OPRA request? Or is it not normal but not abnormal either? I'm trying to get a feel for the judge and whether he's playing ball with the state and telling the rest of us to GTFO.

 

If the NJSP is trying to claim it's Sensitive information, I could see the Judge erring on the side of caution, and allowing them the opportunity to clarify WHY the feel that way.. NOW< Whether or not they will be able to meet his burden or not is another question. Frankly this isnt all that uncommon when it comes to documents of a "Sensitive" nature. that said, this is a document that EVERY PD in the state is supposed to have..much like the FBI/DHS Bulletins that are For Official Use Only, although unclassified, there arent any actual penalties if a copy gets out.

thanks for the insight KPD.

just donated. good luck and thanks!

 

TheWombat

Thank you, Sir. You are a gentleman.

We will be back in court sometime around late August, early September.

 

Did I miss an update? Was the "Guideline Book" obtained?

NJSP assigned a new attorney (their third) to the case and asked for another 30 day extension, which is up at the end of September. At that point we will have the opportunity to respond. Then, the judge may decide based on the documents, or we may have another day in court.

Just joned nj2as...sorry I put it off so long.

 

great work nj2as

Just joned nj2as...sorry I put it off so long.

 

great work nj2as

 

Thanks for the support!

What judge is hearing the case? Who is the attorney for NJ2AS?

The judge is Douglas Hurd. Our attorney is Richard Gutman. See the first post for PDF's of the court documents.

NJSP assigned a new attorney (their third) to the case and asked for another 30 day extension, which is up at the end of September. At that point we will have the opportunity to respond. Then, the judge may decide based on the documents, or we may have another day in court.

 

 

Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, SMILE, SYMPATHETIC LOOK, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, CARE FOR SOME TEA? SMILE, SYMPATHETIC LOOK, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay.......

 

 

G

That's about the size of it. Doesn't instill much confidence in our AG, does it.

The NJAG Office has been a JOKE for about the last 10 years

Jeez- how long does it take them to shred a few documents? I give you NJ2A guys extra credit for your patience, I cant even wait 15 mins at the Olive Garden.

Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, SMILE, SYMPATHETIC LOOK, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, CARE FOR SOME TEA? SMILE, SYMPATHETIC LOOK, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay.......

 

 

G

 

That's the way the game is played. The legal system is a joke. It's not about right or wrong, it's about winning.

That's the way the game is played. The legal system is a joke. It's not about right or wrong, it's about winning.

 

Of course it's about winning. Right, wrong, innocent, guilty. Who cares as long as I win. Isn't that the way the Founding Fathers envisioned it? The whole damn system needs a reboot.

Of course it's about winning. Right, wrong, innocent, guilty. Who cares as long as I win. Isn't that the way the Founding Fathers envisioned it? The whole damn system needs a reboot.

 

Oh it needs some kinda boot alright - a BIG boot in the A <cough> yeah, that.

Maybe they'll piss off the judge with all this bs and he'll rule against them just to make a point

This reminds me of a quote I read today. It was in reference to traders and brokers and how they behave in their own self interest for very short time frames.

"It's like beating one of the neighbor’s expensive cars with a baseball bat with the sole objective of owning the most beautiful car in the neighborhood."

 

Which does make sense, if your goal is to have the most beautiful car in the neighborhood. Worrying about tomorrow and the fact that you'll be in the clink doesn't come into the parameters framing the decision.

 

The same applies to the legal system. The prosecutors are simply looking for what is best for them, right now. Whatever pleases the master, like good little attack dogs, rather than looking at the larger picture and seeing that lives could be saved, rapes could be prevented and that society could become a little more civil. It's not just win, it's win RIGHT NOW, damn the consequences later.

Recap:

 

During our first court date (July 12th) the judge (Judge Hurd) was not satisfied with the NJSP's brief and, in particular, a certification from Lt Schleuter of the NJSP firearms investigation unit. Rather than ruling in our favor, he gave the NJSP 45 days to submit a new, more detailed certification. He gave them a do-over. After the 45 days, the NJSP switched attorneys (for the second time, now their third) and asked for a 30 day extension. You pretty much have to agree to extensions, because, if you don't, the judge will give it to them anyway and think that you are being uncooperative. So we gave them another 30 days, which was up on Sept 30. We received their new certification, and we have already filed our response. At this point, the judge may schedule another hearing, or he may rule on the papers. We don't know which. The good news is that the new certification did not provide any more detail and actually asked the judge to "imagine" what might happen if the guide were to be released. Fortunately, imagining is NOT a legal standard.

Any idea when the judge will come back with whatever is next?

 

Fortunately, imagining is NOT a legal standard.

 

Well, imagine that..

For now, we just have to wait and see what the judge wants to do next.

For now, we just have to wait and see what the judge wants to do next.

 

So out of curiosity, if they just keep doing extension after extension, what is the recourse at that point?

Wow. Having dealt with a few judges in my career, I've got to imagine the judge is getting quite pissed, whatever his personal views on guns. Judges don't like to be f****d with or treated like fools. This gives me a glimmer of hope that the good guys have a chance to prevail on this one.

 

Any chance you can post some of the more recent pleadings?

The judge has scheduled another oral arguments for this Friday, 10/7 at 9:30 AM.

 

 

Wow. Having dealt with a few judges in my career, I've got to imagine the judge is getting quite pissed, whatever his personal views on guns. Judges don't like to be f****d with or treated like fools. This gives me a glimmer of hope that the good guys have a chance to prevail on this one.

 

Any chance you can post some of the more recent pleadings?

 

Yes, I will post the most recent documents in the OP as soon as I get a chance.

 

edit: OP has been updated with three files containing the most recent court documents.

NJ.gov : the final bit of their reply -

 

"... without resort to graphic detail, it is no

great exercise of the mind or heart to imagine the tragic

consequences of such information being routinely available to those

whose aims are far less than worthy."

 

WHAT UNADULTERATED BULL$HIT

 

NJ.gov : the final bit of their reply -

 

"... without resort to graphic detail, it is no

great exercise of the mind or heart to imagine the tragic

consequences of such information being routinely available to those

whose aims are far less than worthy."

 

WHAT UNADULTERATED BULL$HIT

 

 

I hope the judge shares your opinion.

Ok, let me get this straight:

 

The NJSP and their defense lawyers filed a counter brief to your brief when the court didn't ask for a counter brief, and in that brief attempt to claim that your entire suit is erroneous and in error, trying to move the burden of proof to you, the NJ2AS when the NJSP haven't provided proof that the OPRA request would endanger the public and cause 'lone wolf terrorists' to circumvent the numerous background checks in place to prevent such a thing?

 

And I loved your reply to the sur-reply brief. Very well done.