It is against the law for someone to sell a handgun within 30 days to the same person. Am I missing something here?

 

I wish to modify my previous statement. I must have had handgun ammo on my mind.

 

It is against the law for a dealer to sell a handgun within 30 days to the same person. One can argue 'knowingly" is an out. Accidents happen. But the dealer should have a check system in place to be sure he does not violate the law.

 

I ask every handgun purchaser if they acquired a handgun within 30 days, unless other facts or statements lead me to believe they have not. I then search my bound book (MS Excel duplicate) for the purchaser's name to make sure that I have not sold one to them.

 

I presume, and am lead to believe, that the NJSP NICS Unit has a record of all handgun purchases made. They check this data base to make sure the dealer and the purchaser does not violate the law. As was previously posted in another thread, should the NICS check for a handgun occur within the 30 days, the response will be to delay the check until the 30 days expires. However, starting Jan 1, 2012, there will be an automatic denial.

 

What a waste of time, money and intellect this law has created.

I wish to modify my previous statement. I must have had handgun ammo on my mind.

 

It is against the law for a dealer to sell a handgun within 30 days to the same person. One can argue 'knowingly" is an out. Accidents happen. But the dealer should have a check system in place to be sure he does not violate the law.

 

I ask every handgun purchaser if they acquired a handgun within 30 days, unless other facts or statements lead me to believe they have not. I then search my bound book (MS Excel duplicate) for the purchaser's name to make sure that I have not sold one to them.

 

I presume, and am lead to believe, that the NJSP NICS Unit has a record of all handgun purchases made. They check this data base to make sure the dealer and the purchaser does not violate the law. As was previously posted in another thread, should the NICS check for a handgun occur within the 30 days, the response will be to delay the check until the 30 days expires. However, starting Jan 1, 2012, there will be an automatic denial.

 

What a waste of time, money and intellect this law has created.

I know a dealer who miscounted the days on two separate occasions and was called by the firearms unit and told in no uncertain terms he was not to let this EVER happen again. Both cases were denied (or delayed?) at the time of NICS - they knew 30 days had not passed and that this dealer was the one who had sold the previous handgun.

A FFL can look through his/her transfer book to see if they have sold you a handgun within the last 30 days. Besides that, what can they do? I can go to Brick Armory and buy a handgun then drive around the corner and buy another from Shore Shot. How does Shore Shot know I just bought a handgun? I could lie to them and say I haven't bought a handgun within the last 30 days. How can they be in trouble then? I certainly will be though.

 

Exactly my point. You cannot have a law apply to CERTAIN conditions. For instance, if I buy from the same FFL, he probably would have a much harder time proving that he didn't know. However, My Sig Mosquito I bought from Heritage Firearms guild. 31 days later, I bought my p220 Elite from a dealer in Texas, and shipped it in my local FFL. He had no idea that I bought a mosquito. He doesn't know if this is my first gun, or my 15th. Now, we are arguing if BY LAW, he was supposed to ask me, and I can find NOTHING on the books that requires an FFL to ask. IF they do it on their own volition, good on them, but it is NOT required. The law ONLY states that IF THEY KNOW (ie you use that FFL all the time) you bought a gun less than 30 days ago, they are NOT allowed to sell to you.

NJSP does the checks here in NJ, and you can ask your FFL if you like, but a lot of your messages in this thread did start with PK90 and he's one of the very active FFL's on this forum and one who's comments and opinions of the laws are highly regarded by many here. Just in case you didn't know that about PK90.

 

Harry

 

I am sure PK90 is a highly regarded member on the board, and I take NOTHING away from him. I am simply debating facts/laws vs opinions. For instance, my FFL, a very smart, well versed in firearm legal knowledge was under the impression that one MUST submit a SS# for an NICS check, to which I corrected him, and after I passed mine, he said "you learn something new everyday."

For instance, my FFL, a very smart, well versed in firearm legal knowledge was under the impression that one MUST submit a SS# for an NICS check, to which I corrected him, and after I passed mine, he said "you learn something new everyday."

 

Really, I don't know who the FFL is that you are dealing with, but if he/she can read it say's SSN (Can't remember which being I don't have the form on front of me) is not required or optional right there on the form, they may be great and very knowledgeable but after that statement I'd have some doubts.

 

Harry

It is not as easy for the dealer to recognize that he sold a handgun to a person within the 30 days, especially when the dealer does 30 to 40 transfers per day and there are several salesmen. One can not just look through the bound book to find a transaction, as NJ still requires a hand written book. Federal law allows for an electronic book, but approval is needed. Besides, one would still need to hand write them in. Since firearms are entered as they are received, one may purchase a handgun that was entered three books ago. The other way to search, besides having a duplicate electronic spread sheet as I do, is to go through the last 30 days of the 4473s. Of course, this could mean searching thousands of the forms.

 

There is no requirement or law to ask if one purchased a handgun within the past 30 days. IMO, "knowingly" could be hard to prove in a court of law, however, one will probably lose their NJ Firearm Retail License.

 

If the NJSP NICS Unit is keeping track of handgun purchases as eluded to, doesn'y the liability of a violation switch to them anyway?

If the NJSP NICS Unit is keeping track of handgun purchases as eluded to, doesn'y the liability of a violation switch to them anyway?

 

Paul - wow, that seems logical. What state do you live in that you think logic applies?? If logic applied, half of the laws wouldn't have been drafted the way they were nor would they be enforced the way they are. But you knew that and your point above was just rhetorical.

Who said Paul didn't have a sense of humor.

 

So what exactly does NICS do? Are they only for the background check? Why do they ask if it is for a long gun or hand gun? I would think they ask the question so THEY can check on the buyers 30 day window, no?

Who said Paul didn't have a sense of humor.

 

Not me, he got me BIG TIME.

When I purchase a handgun, it is MY responsibility to declare that I have not purchased in the last 30 days. And, I had to sign something to that effect when last purchasing. Why should there be any problem with an FFL getting in trouble (unless he sold you the last item and he should have it on record)? Even if he made the prior sale, it shouldn't be his responsibility to remember, but rather yours to abide by the State. And, if the State has a problem, then it should come out in the unconstitutional NICS check. I thought NICS only held your purchase record for 30 days. So, if there was no record you should be in the clear... <BR><BR>I get quite frustrated with my dealings with dealers and FFLs. Now, I don't want my local guys to go out of business, as we need as many options as possible in the State of NJ, but these dealers aren't making it easier for me to do business with them. I asked a couple of dealers if they could check on the price and availability of something for me, and they didn't even bother to call me back. So, I went somewhere else. <BR><BR>In another instance, a dealer was complaining to me about his bottom line and other things. I spend a little extra money and purchase ammo and other things from him, when I could get them cheaper in other places, but I want him to be there and local for me. I don't want to hear his complaints when I go in there unless I ask him about his business. I don't care if he is venting or pleeing with me to make a purchase. He usually doesn't have what I want, athough he can get it, and he charges $20-50 more than everyone else. <BR><BR>Another guy, I purchased a few guns from him, but he doesn't have what I want in stock, often. So, I want to have it sent to him for an FFL transfer, esepcially if I can get it used, and he basically, says he will do it but sticks it to me. Now, I am thinking, well, I purchased quite a few things from him and I am a good customer, he should be a little more accomodating, especially when I have asked him about getting that particular item in for some time and he didn't but I found on my own.<BR><BR>I know with the economy and with the state interference, it is tough for these guys, but, they should be bending over backward for their customers. I do in their stores a lot and they are standing around BSing. That time could be used finding things for customers, etc. <BR><BR>As for Dicks, I will not buy anything from them. When they decided to stop selling handguns, and only hunting guns, I said bye bye. I don't care what sales they have on ammunition and hunting gear, etc.. They either support the Second Amendment or they don't. They don't support if fully, so I don't support them.

Do you realize that maybe the handgun business was causing them to lose money? Large retailers (one of which I am a store manager for) constantly have to weigh cost with return. Especially competing with other shops offering lower prices. Having dead merchandise in prime selling areas causes loss of sales. That doesn't mean they don't support the 2nd amendment. Just that they made a sound business decision to increase sales.

 

But of course you can shop anywhere you'd like. If you are mistreated somewhere going back isn't going to help your cause. Either speak up to the owner or find another shop.

When I purchase a handgun, it is MY responsibility to declare that I have not purchased in the last 30 days. And, I had to sign something to that effect when last purchasing. Why should there be any problem with an FFL getting in trouble (unless he sold you the last item and he should have it on record)? Even if he made the prior sale, it shouldn't be his responsibility to remember, but rather yours to abide by the State. And, if the State has a problem, then it should come out in the unconstitutional NICS check. I thought NICS only held your purchase record for 30 days. So, if there was no record you should be in the clear... <BR><BR>I get quite frustrated with my dealings with dealers and FFLs. Now, I don't want my local guys to go out of business, as we need as many options as possible in the State of NJ, but these dealers aren't making it easier for me to do business with them. I asked a couple of dealers if they could check on the price and availability of something for me, and they didn't even bother to call me back. So, I went somewhere else. <BR><BR>In another instance, a dealer was complaining to me about his bottom line and other things. I spend a little extra money and purchase ammo and other things from him, when I could get them cheaper in other places, but I want him to be there and local for me. I don't want to hear his complaints when I go in there unless I ask him about his business. I don't care if he is venting or pleeing with me to make a purchase. He usually doesn't have what I want, athough he can get it, and he charges $20-50 more than everyone else. <BR><BR>Another guy, I purchased a few guns from him, but he doesn't have what I want in stock, often. So, I want to have it sent to him for an FFL transfer, esepcially if I can get it used, and he basically, says he will do it but sticks it to me. Now, I am thinking, well, I purchased quite a few things from him and I am a good customer, he should be a little more accomodating, especially when I have asked him about getting that particular item in for some time and he didn't but I found on my own.<BR><BR>I know with the economy and with the state interference, it is tough for these guys, but, they should be bending over backward for their customers. I do in their stores a lot and they are standing around BSing. That time could be used finding things for customers, etc. <BR><BR>As for Dicks, I will not buy anything from them. When they decided to stop selling handguns, and only hunting guns, I said bye bye. I don't care what sales they have on ammunition and hunting gear, etc.. They either support the Second Amendment or they don't. They don't support if fully, so I don't support them.

When did Dick's ever sell handguns? I don't believe they ever did, not in NJ or anywhere else.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ATF under the current administration isn't putting pressure on FFLs from all sides. For all you know, this FFL has had another infraction and he is being told that he cannot sell certain guns, or perhaps he is in jeopardy of losing his license. Or, perhaps he doesn't want to have to report you for buying multiple guns in a certain time period since he seemed to want to just wait a little more. Certainly under this current unconstitutional administration we should all be concerned that any erratic behaviors by a local FFL might be due to external pressures. I am sure part of it is that FFLs feel that they are getting rooked by the widespread purchasing of firearms from internet sources and it leaves them with a bad taste. Others, seem to treat badges that purchase a lot from them with care and occasional buyers or individual citizens with less consideration.

 

We have to work together, FFLs and other fellow citizens to protect and exercise our rights. I for one have not appreciated the attitudes by some dealers during some of my interactions with them, and it certainly has hurt their individual sale with me because I went somewhere else. As a case in point, I don't think Simon Peters Sports seems to value my potential business. But , they are human.

 

I would call him and ask him why he treated you that way. Be extra kind to him, smother him with kindness, and tell him how you felt. Tell him that you can't understand why someone that was in business would treat a customer that way and say the things that he did. Ask him how he would feel if he was providing you business and you decided not to officiate a perfectly legal deal with him. See what he says.

 

For all we know, he has just been told his wife has cancer, or his daughter is sick and he took it out on you. Maybe he had an infraction and he was threatened that he would be shut down if it happened again. Maybe he really doesn't know what is legal for an AR, even though he should as a professional. And, maybe he is being political and feels that NJ residents should only have hunting guns. Find it out. Let him know that you will get the word out that he is problematic and give him a chance to defend himself. Then, let the rest of us know what happened.

 

The main reason I think you should do this is because we cannot afford to lose anymore FFLs, and because we are all human. He can't be too bad if he has been in business this long.

It is a two way street, and just because you are a customer, does not mean you are their number one priority.

 

Beleive it or not, there is absolutely no money to be made in New guns. With places like buds, etc, and I will admit, the price request thing ain't helping them, but it is about the bottom dollar.

 

Places like Buds, who just drop ship from distributor to your local FFL, have no overhead for a warehouse or anything. Because of their volume, they can sell a glock a $1 over cost and make money as no one at Buds ever touches the gun. They are just the middle man.

 

If you bought 5 new guns from a dealer, at most they made $10 or $20 on a new gun, due to the commoditized marketplace. Someone who sells on consignment or buys used guns, is a far more profitable customer. This is why some dealers would rather just charge you for the transfer.

 

Gun stores are not in the business of selling new guns. There is simply no money to be made there, especially when everyone wants the lowest price.

 

The only way to get away with it, is to buy at cost, and sell at full MSRP, and that can only work in large retail stores where the people come in, not knowing anything (not njgf forum folks).