Can anybody say Kristallnacht?

 

Beware who is behind this....

next step the night of long knives

the only difference that creates is that the higher ups can watch it all come crashing down while being safely tucked away...

How is that any different from here? We all know damn well that Obama isn't gonna be walking the streets during a riot. He'd probably be in a shelter underneath the White House if there were riots in L.A.

Political correctness, bunch of pussies, all the same.

 

I'm thinking, if this were to happen here does it make sense to fire 12-Gauge rubber buckshot and/or rubber slugs for rioters attempting to enter/destroy your home? Sort of on guard outside. Then transition to AR if they are armed. Surely you don't want to use lethal force but you don't want your property destroyed either. If they are armed then drop the shotgun then transition to AR.

 

I think its justified to use lethal force if they are considered arson or attempting to burn your home.

 

Here in NJ that rubber buckshot is considered Deadly Force..if you have justification to use the Rubber, you have justification to use Lead,

Screw all of them.

 

They were more Man when they were under rule of Kings than they are now.

KpdPipes - Will it be justified to takedown someone who is about to throw an incendiary device to your home? He's out on the streets about to burn your house.

 

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2008/Bills/A0500/159_I1.PDF - Page 5 line 48. Its hard to interpret the law and can come from different angles.

 

 

Here in NJ that rubber buckshot is considered Deadly Force..if you have justification to use the Rubber, you have justification to use Lead,

KpdPipes - Will it be justified to takedown someone who is about to throw an incendiary device to your home? He's out on the streets about to burn your house.

 

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2008/Bills/A0500/159_I1.PDF - Page 5 line 48. Its hard to interpret the law and can come from different angles.

 

My Opinion??? Absolutely..however I am neither an Attorney, Prosecutor, or Judge.

Here in NJ that rubber buckshot is considered Deadly Force..if you have justification to use the Rubber, you have justification to use Lead,

Didn't they change all non-lethal ammunition to less lethal in general since the right shot with anything can kill.

Didn't they change all non-lethal ammunition to less lethal in general since the right shot with anything can kill.

 

yes and no..they redefined "Deadly Force" as a definition, to allow for Less-Lethal for Police use..however, 5 years later we still dont have an AG guideline that actually lets us know WHAT is and is not allowable. AFAIK however there is no "Less Lethal" for Joe Citizen.

I think that less than lethal items have their place, sometimes. I'm just worried that it will eventually overtake firearms for law enforcement. Next thing you know, 15 years down the line, we've got cops running into a school to stop a shooting with shotguns shooting bean bags, all because someone's mom complained that her boy was shot (in the process of killing innocent people). KPD, do you have any insight or opinions on this matter?

I think that less than lethal items have their place, sometimes. I'm just worried that it will eventually overtake firearms for law enforcement. Next thing you know, 15 years down the line, we've got cops running into a school to stop a shooting with shotguns shooting bean bags, all because someone's mom complained that her boy was shot (in the process of killing innocent people). KPD, do you have any insight or opinions on this matter?

 

 

The writing is on the wall..every other year NYC and NY State tries to institute the "Disabling Shot" doctrine for the Police there... Eventually SOMEONE somewhere, probably NY, Chicago, or IMO Most likely San Francisco, will try to go to 100% Non-lethal force, or maybe the London Model. As soon as one of the Liberal Bastions manages to do it every other one will be clamoring to follow in suit. Even though the technology doesn't exist, and wont for the foreseeable future ("Smart gun technology anyone??) Politicians somehow believe that the whole Star Trek "Set Phasers on Stun" crap is Juuuust around the corner. What I see is a really bad cycle. the Mutants will see that they can run around with almost no checks, and the bodies will pile up, Cops and Citizens, until it boils over. Eventually things will go back into balance, but at a very high cost. Stephen Coonts wrote a Novel called "Under Siege" (no reference to the Seagal movie of the same title), as part of his "Jake Grafton" series...it shows what I'm talking about on a smaller scale, and is a pretty entertaining read.

In the end We're damned no matter what we do. Daryl Gates, and the Mayor were warned by "Community Leaders" that in the aftermath of the Post Rodney King Trials if the police were heavy-handed with protesters, Violence would sweep the city. They held back, they sent minimal responses to groups of protesters, with orders to back off if things got heavy, which they did. And seeing that they could act with impunity, the City erupted. If Gates had gone in at the beginning with hats and Bats and Put it Down, he'd have been called every kind of racist scumbag in the world...now he's Villified for allowing his city to burn.

Stephen Coonts wrote a Novel called "Under Siege" (no reference to the Seagal movie of the same title), as part of his "Jake Grafton" series...it shows what I'm talking about on a smaller scale, and is a pretty entertaining read.

 

I'm a big fan of that series. Now I have to re-read Under Siege again!

Imaging what would have happend years ago in Elizabeth is Mayor Dunn didn't take a strong stance.

 

Wonder how that would go over today.

 

Harry

The writing is on the wall..every other year NYC and NY State tries to institute the "Disabling Shot" doctrine for the Police there... Eventually SOMEONE somewhere, probably NY, Chicago, or IMO Most likely San Francisco, will try to go to 100% Non-lethal force, or maybe the London Model. As soon as one of the Liberal Bastions manages to do it every other one will be clamoring to follow in suit. Even though the technology doesn't exist, and wont for the foreseeable future ("Smart gun technology anyone??) Politicians somehow believe that the whole Star Trek "Set Phasers on Stun" crap is Juuuust around the corner. What I see is a really bad cycle. the Mutants will see that they can run around with almost no checks, and the bodies will pile up, Cops and Citizens, until it boils over. Eventually things will go back into balance, but at a very high cost. Stephen Coonts wrote a Novel called "Under Siege" (no reference to the Seagal movie of the same title), as part of his "Jake Grafton" series...it shows what I'm talking about on a smaller scale, and is a pretty entertaining read.

In the end We're damned no matter what we do. Daryl Gates, and the Mayor were warned by "Community Leaders" that in the aftermath of the Post Rodney King Trials if the police were heavy-handed with protesters, Violence would sweep the city. They held back, they sent minimal responses to groups of protesters, with orders to back off if things got heavy, which they did. And seeing that they could act with impunity, the City erupted. If Gates had gone in at the beginning with hats and Bats and Put it Down, he'd have been called every kind of racist scumbag in the world...now he's Villified for allowing his city to burn.

 

So when are all the forward-thinking, pro-liberty police folks gonna get together and fight for our rights as civilians and against things like 'Smart Gun' tech and other Gun Control schemes? Seems like every time a police chief in NJ opens his mouth on the matter of civilians owning guns or any meaningful reforms on drug enforcement, they tend to be decidedly negative. Meanwhile the rank-and-file sit there and nod in agreement while wearing a smile of their collective faces.

 

The police aren't winning any favors by pissing on criminals and the law-abiding alike.

The writing is on the wall..every other year NYC and NY State tries to institute the "Disabling Shot" doctrine for the Police there... Eventually SOMEONE somewhere, probably NY, Chicago, or IMO Most likely San Francisco, will try to go to 100% Non-lethal force, or maybe the London Model. As soon as one of the Liberal Bastions manages to do it every other one will be clamoring to follow in suit. Even though the technology doesn't exist, and wont for the foreseeable future ("Smart gun technology anyone??) Politicians somehow believe that the whole Star Trek "Set Phasers on Stun" crap is Juuuust around the corner. What I see is a really bad cycle. the Mutants will see that they can run around with almost no checks, and the bodies will pile up, Cops and Citizens, until it boils over. Eventually things will go back into balance, but at a very high cost. Stephen Coonts wrote a Novel called "Under Siege" (no reference to the Seagal movie of the same title), as part of his "Jake Grafton" series...it shows what I'm talking about on a smaller scale, and is a pretty entertaining read.

In the end We're damned no matter what we do. Daryl Gates, and the Mayor were warned by "Community Leaders" that in the aftermath of the Post Rodney King Trials if the police were heavy-handed with protesters, Violence would sweep the city. They held back, they sent minimal responses to groups of protesters, with orders to back off if things got heavy, which they did. And seeing that they could act with impunity, the City erupted. If Gates had gone in at the beginning with hats and Bats and Put it Down, he'd have been called every kind of racist scumbag in the world...now he's Villified for allowing his city to burn.

Wow, thanks for your opinion and knowledge. I really think it's a scary thought. Again, I think that non-lethal is something useful that LE can and probably should have as tools, but I most definitely, without a doubt in my mind, think that firearms should ALWAYS be a tool that they have at their disposal.

So when are all the forward-thinking, pro-liberty police folks gonna get together and fight for our rights as civilians and against things like 'Smart Gun' tech and other Gun Control schemes? Seems like every time a police chief in NJ opens his mouth on the matter of civilians owning guns or any meaningful reforms on drug enforcement, they tend to be decidedly negative. Meanwhile the rank-and-file sit there and nod in agreement while wearing a smile of their collective faces.

 

The police aren't winning any favors by pissing on criminals and the law-abiding alike.

 

 

bs..they're usually ordered to stand there and are ignored when they do speak up... But hey dont let me intrude with facts or anything.

Wow, thanks for your opinion and knowledge. I really think it's a scary thought. Again, I think that non-lethal is something useful that LE can and probably should have as tools, but I most definitely, without a doubt in my mind, think that firearms should ALWAYS be a tool that they have at their disposal.

 

The problem is, once a Less lethal system is shown to work and work well, it gets over-used. Taser is a GREAT example of this. There are agencies who's default position with even just VERBAL Resistance is ti immediately go to taser..which gives the Device a bad name, and of course the News reports make it seem that Everyone uses it in that manner....or, the go so far in the other direction (Cough NJ Cough) that even when authorized the useage is so restricted that you might as well not bother to buyt them.