Got to keep the people scared, scared people are easier to control. This where people forget history, the Nazis used this over and over to gain 100% control. Scared people willingly give up their rights and ultimately their freedom

 

You nailed it right on the head. The terrorists already won. We have to live like they do now, without freedom. You have no privacy left. The government can go though your bags and car at will, we live in a constant police state, ....etc, etc.

Ten years ago I was in my back yard looking in the sky for crop dusters, my M-1 and several loaded 8-round en-block Clips (YES CLIPS!) at the ready. Cops swung by, (back yard visible from the street) looked at my set-up and asked what I was doing, so I told him. He told me "SHOOT FIRST! And get the planes tail number if possible! That's what they told us to do!" So I strongly doubt our local PD is going to be going around and "collecting" arms, LOL!

 

That same M-1 and I stand ready to help kick some butt this weekend! Let's hope I don't need to press Her into service!

 

As far as the rest of this thread goes: Lumping everybody together cause they're from the same "group" isn't right, but neither is the almost deafening SILENCE from the Muslim community and it's leaders when afforded an opportunity to speak-out against these vicious cowardly attacks that were & are committed by members of their faith in the name of their God, in some twisted mind-set in the name of their religion.

 

Now you Boys with the Tacticool .223 pea shooters all dressed-out don't be feelin too embarassed & under-gunned now, ya hear! Us OLD MEN with our .30's will save your A$$es if the SHTF, LOL!

 

Dave

Ethinic Groups aside, let's not forget hat there were a number of 9-11 hiojackers who came out of NJ, not to mention the planning, and preps for the 1993 WTC bombing ALSO happened right here in NJ, as well as a hugne number of arrests in the (Foiled by JTTF) Follw-up plot In Jersey City, where several of the participants were nabbed while in the act of Mixing ANFO.

If you see something that doesnt look right, TELL SOMEONE. If you Choose to MYOB, then dont complain later if something bad happens.

 

Paterson is right across the moat! Anyone down for sum al-Qaida huntn this weekend!

Mark (Malsua), I can't agree with you more. I remember on 9/11 the Muslums in Jersey City were celebrating the destruction in lower Manhattan on apartment building roof-tops. There is an underlining disgust of "our" American ways in the Arab community and 9/11 proved that. Europe is being invaded by Muhammed and look how that's turning out.

 

Sorry Ben, and I understand that you played in the sand which I appreciate greatly, but the writing is on the wall.

RayRay, I hear ya! The fockers were pulling the same **** it Paterson, not too far from my parents house. If I could reach out & touch someone, believe me, justice would have been service in Passaic County, then I would move onto Hudson!

 

 

 

ps: thanks for ur service Ben.

I understand and respect what Mark has contributed. To a certain degree, I agree. For me, the problem lies in that it is not a complete picture/thought, which can prove to be hindering to everybody.

 

In the end, this anniversary marks respect for those who are not with us anymore. Perspectives on everything else is just perspectives, and there is no trying to fight over it as these perspectives will persist as talking points for a very long time-- far after any of us are around anymore.

It seems like everyone these days tries to pigeon hole all Muslims as extremists. It's kind of sad. I understand that no Christian hate groups, to my knowledge, have executed a large scale terrorist attack like the one on the Trade Towers, but it just seems to me that everyone forgets that there are nut jobs in every religion. I was in 7th grade when the Trade Towers came down. That year we had a boy and his family move here from Egypt. His father was working at 7Eleven and ten white Christians smashed the front windows of the store and proceeded to beat the h3ll out of him. Did he deserve that because he was a Muslim? Absolutly not. They sound like extremists to me, but because of that would I consider all Christians batsh*t crazy? No. For every Muslim extremist group out there I'm sure there is a Christian extremist group. If the Christian hate groups could pull something off like that I think they would, but from dealing with AC Skins and Keystone State Skins in the past they're all talk.

And yet it is easier to subjugate a classification of people to create targets of opportunity. To dehumanize a category allows justification of waging conflict and war (and the terrible things associated with such actions), while in many cases distracting the masses from the actual issues.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I find the rhetoric that it's all the "towel head"'s faults a bit vicious and hypocritical, especially when people complain that "white, conservatives" being targeted is grounds for an uproar and reason to march on the capital. To me it appears that people have some deep seated issues that they haven't resolved, and/or are smitten with what is passed from the talking head's that supposedly lead this country (which is ironic because some of these people call others "sheep"). I'm not saying how to live your life, but, gosh, listen to yourselves. You're willing to make somebody less than human so you can simply blame someone, without even taking the time to understand. Not to appreciate or care-for, but to at least understand-- otherwise it is just ignorance that powers you.

 

Are there bad people who deserve nothing but swift justice? Of course. Anybody-- white, black, yellow, purple, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc-- who threatens me and my family with violence, and, further, acts upon that threat will receive swift justice. However, to alienate a fellow human because they simply have a beard, are brown, and have a different faith makes me what? A bigot? A bastard? A hero? We wonder why the world is so screwed up, when in fact we choose to put up walls around ourselves-- calling it "insulation" or "protection", and then demand answers when we fail to be successful. People are so damn short sighted, and it's irritating and frustrating because they're good people, if they could just go beyond their sphere of influence.

 

Alas, history of the world, and in fact I am :thsmiley_deadhorse:...

 

Ben,

 

I'm not quite sure how to respond to this.

 

As I recall the common Muslim in the streets in the Mideast were cheering and dancing at the images of tower one burning. The location my mother family and friends were incinerated or crushed to death.....so yes I do blame them quite correctly so I might add....

 

Time to come down off your pontificating high horse......

 

Maybe over a coffee I'll explain to you the many nights I held my six year old (at the time) in the wee hours of the morning trying to console her that her grandmother is gone.....why there is no body....no the bad people aren't coming to get you too.....

 

Until the time that every last one of them that had a hand in this, espouse this idea that it was grand, or harbor those as listed above are dead and buried.....yeah..I'm gonna be angry and wish death upon them.....

 

If they just happen to be brown, have a scraggly beard and wear a towel on their heads....hey it's their problem....if they don't meet that criterion so be it they all still need to die.

 

 

There are muslims who have come here specifically to escape those guys. They want that culture to change and become more tolerant and free.

 

 

 

 

The common Muslim needs to then standup and shout LOUDER than they do....I don't see it...... Imnsho maybe because they don't believe they should....

 

Their 'ghettos' are saturated with extremism....their religious leaders ratchet up the hate.........wake up.....

 

They are a cancer and cancer needs to be eradicated..... If white Christian bible thumbing nut jobs started murdering innocents in the streets I would call for the same thing....it just so happens now it's muslim extremism....

I am aware of your loss, and I do know what that feels like personally, NickJC.

With that said, there is no sitting on a high horse of any type. I have seen the classified images of the destruction and mayhem caused by Muslim extremists here and abroad. I've seen the devastation caused by coalition forces, to both intended targets and collateral. I do think it is easy to neglect the fact that tens of thousands... hundreds [of thousands], if not millions, have been affected by the events of 9/11 (and many more to come).

 

While I do mourn the lives lost of my fellow citizens, I cannot simply forget the ones who might not share the same nation as me-- but are equally human. I have never, ever agreed or said the actions of those who choose to inflict harm are justified-- in fact I have said, repeatedly, in this post and in the past, that I have been involved with, and advocate, the utter destruction of those who are involved in such heinous acts.

 

HOWEVER, that does not mean every individual of a background is an enemy. I'm not saying it is wrong to *think* it-- I'm simply saying that it is wrong to think it, want to act upon it, and then justify that it is the patriotic thing to do. As far as I'm concerned, the American ideal is about equal rights for all-- and that starts at understanding and respecting a culture. With your loss, I can understand why you would be hostile, NickJC, and I respect that. I do. Those are not empty words. I can't say I advocate them though. In the big picture, long after you and I are gone and just memories of this world, these arguments will persist. And regardless of what you and I think, the problems will have to be addressed. To simply believe that the eradication of a broad group of people (who simply fly under a banner) is justified is... well, mortifying.

 

Truth is this is a touchy subject for all people, Americans, Muslims, Saudis, etc, etc. I understand and respect that every individual has the choice to deal with their emotions at their personal level-- in fact that is one of the beauty's of being an American. And because of that, how a person feels is how they will feel [as it's been proven that people are rarely moved unless they wish to be]. What I cannot stand for is the public announcement of distasteful and blatant bigotry on a public space that I co-inhabit. To *think* that you wish for the absolute eradication of a group of people is none of my business-- and that is, in fact, your right. However, in a public space, *saying* and sharing it is a different story. It is a slap in the face of what I have personally sacrificed for, and only continues to paint a certain picture of what the firearms community is considered.

Perspectives on everything else is just perspectives, and there is no trying to fight over it as these perspectives will persist as talking points for a very long time-- far after any of us are around anymore.

 

 

I do not know your backround nor you mine, unless research has been done, that being said war is at our doorstep as I am sure you are painfully aware, however my opinion and 'perspective' is that this is a generational war that that as soon as we understand that the better off we will all be. I do find it most distressing as a person that the exact life events as part of this war and perspective as to feeling/emotions and a whole host of other thoughts are being compartmentalized as 'talking points' ??!?!?!.......... WOW....if so we are in worse shape that I thought....correctness run amok..

 

 

 

 

I am aware of your loss, and I do know what that feels like personally, NickJC.

 

 

 

With all due respect, ummm no you don't.........each and every persons loss is different.... Unless your mother was on the phone with you as the line went fast busy the near moments she was killed you do not know, you do not know what it is like to hear FDNY command being crushed by the collapse and knowing that your friend was in the command area-station....... so please do not tell me you know...you do not... Nor can I imagine what it must be like to be in combat or to lose your best friend during a firefight....I cannot and will not even try to say what it feel like personally....again not knowing your backround I can say this...if we knew each other better it would be different....

 

 

With that said, there is no sitting on a high horse of any type. I have seen the classified images of the destruction and mayhem caused by Muslim extremists here and abroad. I've seen the devastation caused by coalition forces, to both intended targets and collateral. I do think it is easy to neglect the fact that tens of thousands... hundreds [of thousands], if not millions, have been affected by the events of 9/11 (and many more to come).

 

 

Granted, having not seen the images we all mourn for collateral, human, loss. War is ugly, no doubt about it....it is the worst thing that man can engage in.....but war it is and wars must be fought and they must be won.

 

 

While I do mourn the lives lost of my fellow citizens, I cannot simply forget the ones who might not share the same nation as me-- but are equally human. I have never, ever agreed or said the actions of those who choose to inflict harm are justified-- in fact I have said, repeatedly, in this post and in the past, that I have been involved with, and advocate, the utter destruction of those who are involved in such heinous acts.

 

HOWEVER, that does not mean every individual of a background is an enemy. I'm not saying it is wrong to *think* it-- I'm simply saying that it is wrong to think it, want to act upon it, and then justify that it is the patriotic thing to do. As far as I'm concerned, the American ideal is about equal rights for all-- and that starts at understanding and respecting a culture. With your loss, I can understand why you would be hostile, NickJC, and I respect that. I do. Those are not empty words. I can't say I advocate them though. In the big picture, long after you and I are gone and just memories of this world, these arguments will persist. And regardless of what you and I think, the problems will have to be addressed. To simply believe that the eradication of a broad group of people (who simply fly under a banner) is justified is... well, mortifying.

 

 

 

You seem to think that I am the angry white guy who wants to kill all muslims, that is very far from and not remotely close to the truth. My cousin is married for many years to a gem of a person who happens to be turkish and muslim. He is one of the nicest most honorable fellows I know and I am happy to call him my FAMILY.

 

I am sorry that I mortify you by my thoughts that those who committed this crime must be eradicated from the face of the planet. I am sorry I mortify you that I wish to hold those responsible for this act and the horrific acts committed around the world under the name of Islam need to be brought to justice. I am sorry that I mortify you that those that would cheer and celebrate such an act of evil, in my opinion, need to either be held accountable for their actions, or in such a way be monitored so they cannot do the exact same thing on a smaller or larger scale.

 

 

 

Truth is this is a touchy subject for all people, Americans, Muslims, Saudis, etc, etc. I understand and respect that every individual has the choice to deal with their emotions at their personal level-- in fact that is one of the beauty's of being an American. And because of that, how a person feels is how they will feel [as it's been proven that people are rarely moved unless they wish to be]. What I cannot stand for is the public announcement of distasteful and blatant bigotry on a public space that I co-inhabit. To *think* that you wish for the absolute eradication of a group of people is none of my business-- and that is, in fact, your right. However, in a public space, *saying* and sharing it is a different story. It is a slap in the face of what I have personally sacrificed for, and only continues to paint a certain picture of what the firearms community is considered.

 

 

Once again you are operating from a point of incorrect fact. I do not believe that they ALL should be eradicated, I am NOT a NAZI talking about the Jewish Problem, or the Turks talking about the Armenian problem, nor the white angry guy talking about the Muslim problem.

 

I * AM * the guy that realizes we are at war and this war will last much longer that the average joe in the USA has the stomach for. This war will last far into the future and still be a problem with my gran-children's children's children....... We cannot forget that.....

 

As far as labeling me a bigot, well I take offense to that and frankly call you on it. I take offense that a current and/or ex-US servicemen would even think to imply that we should bow down even for a second to anyone who would threaten this country in any name, flag, race, creed and or religion. I am offended at your holier than thou attitude and your statements...." I saw the images ".... So what....?? They started it....we must finish it..... if we choose to survive as a nation and as a people.

 

You perceived slap in the face is misguided as it pertains to your sacrifice. Again one that I honor, respect and thank you for.

 

But what you sacrificed for is for an open exchange of ideas and thoughts under the Constitution that you swore and oath to protect. You might not like what I think, you might not agree with what I think, but these are my thoughts not yours. Just as I come to try to understand your thoughts and those that I might or might not agree with. THAT is what you sacrificed for the freedom to stand up and speak ones mind. Not to stand up and speak just what is the politically correct thing to speak. You know that.

 

Finally in closing your ascertation that I or others that might espouse a feeling of less than love for some in the muslim community is a blight on the firearms community as a whole is pure hogwash. My grandfather went to the grave hating the Japanese people for Dec 7, 1941 and the war they brought to us. He was a proud firearms owner, hunter, servicmen and person. I could only hope to walk as tall as he did in his shoes....

 

I leave you with a few quotes and the handshake to say I agree to disagree and wish you peace in your mind for the rest of your days for what you have seen...however I will not allow to the best of my ability and will challenge anyone who thinks we should, even if it is inferred, any type of subjugation of this great nation and people to any that does not support what it stands for.

 

I am personally done with this thread....best to all.

 

Peace, above all things, is to be desired, but blood must sometimes be spilled to obtain it on equable and lasting terms.

- Andrew Jackson

 

If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.

- SAMUEL ADAMS

Got to keep the people scared, scared people are easier to control. This where people forget history, the Nazis used this over and over to gain 100% control. Scared people willingly give up their rights and ultimately their freedom

 

Exactly - more propaganda to show us how much we need our governments protection. Lets give them more reasons to create government agencies and have more control over us. We wouldn't have half the problems we have if the US would stay out of everybodies buisness. Who elected us as protector of the world? How about securing our own borders instead of worrying about everyboby else.

+1 NickJC. I PMed you.

 

I too am done with the public discussion of the subject matter I discussed. If you wish to comment further, contact me personally.

Today, THIS day, is a day of remembrance. I won't be marring it with thoughts of revenge or conspiracy or war. Today we remember. Remember where we and our families were, and be grateful for where they were not. Remember that many amongst us were not so fortunate.

 

G