Maybe I am blind or a bit naive, but until 2009 I thought we had few to little problems in the USA.However, in the past few years the more research I did the more I realize how "Socialistic" our society has become. In the last ten years our free speech has been attacked like never before. Our 2A has been under attack for 50 years or more. Entitlement programs, government growing, regulations through the wazoo,government that is doing what THEY want to and not represent us, etc.

 

Honestly, I feel the only thing that differentiates us from Europe in the 1A, 2A and the some of the free thinkers we have left in society.However, they are coming under more fire than ever before. I am amazed when I talk to many of my friends they think this country is simply going through another cycle and everything will be okay.

 

Honestly, I was one of those people just a few short years ago. May I ask, who saw this coming? What do you see happening? If history repeats itself we are in very big trouble.

Maybe I am blind or a bit naive, but until 2009 I thought we had few to little problems in the USA.However, in the past few years the more research I did the more I realize how "Socialistic" our society has become. In the last ten years our free speech has been attacked like never before. Our 2A has been under attack for 50 years or more. Entitlement programs, government growing, regulations through the wazoo,government that is doing what THEY want to and not represent us, etc.

 

Honestly, I feel the only thing that differentiates us from Europe in the 1A, 2A and the some of the free thinkers we have left in society.However, they are coming under more fire than ever before. I am amazed when I talk to many of my friends they think this country is simply going through another cycle and everything will be okay.

 

Honestly, I was one of those people just a few short years ago. May I ask, who saw this coming? What do you see happening? If history repeats itself we are in very big trouble.

As a proud naturalized American citizen that has spent more than half my life here I refuse to give up on America....That being said I also refuse to give up my home country's passport either.It's mine and my family's insurance policy if you will. I don't like what I've seen and experienced here in just the past decade and like most Americans can't say I'm better off today than I was 5 or 10 years ago but am reminded that it is so in just about the rest of the world also.

Lets just say I remain cautiously optimistic but have an exit strategy.

I don't know enough to comment on anything but a historian that I met in a social gathering once told me that all democratic countries will tend to lean towards socialism while communitst/socialist countries will turn to democratic type of government. Looking at it now, it seems he maybe right. I just felt that the greed of the few has hurt this country a lot more than I thought it did!

 

I feel that the politicians are not listening to the American people!

Gradual erosion of our rights - For instance the "Patriot Act"

 

Circumventing checks and balances, power creep - Rule by decree "executive orders", rule by obfuscation via agency "regulations" (like the BATF's ability to deem guns and ammo not "sporting" and banning their importation).. Just do a search for the word "sporting" on this page, and see how many lines you find giving the BATF's Director the red pen ability to do what he pleases.

 

Unfair election practices - just read up on the Electoral College. Also, the 2 party system is in decline in the US, people want to vote for who they like regardless of their party affiliations. We should be looking at proportional voting systems.

 

Fear of incarceration - There are so many state and federal laws on the books that the govt at any time could most likely incarcerate or put into legal trouble a large portion of our population at any time if they put the energy into it. From tax laws down to your mag holding 1 bullet too many.

 

Militarization of the police - Perceived "us v. them" mentality. Military style raids , especially botched ones.

 

Bureaucracy - It's is at an all time high. Me and some friends are working on starting a company investing in the importation a certain type of liquor. Apparently this takes jumping through multiple federal and state hoops. Believe it or not, the Federal part is easiest (still no walk in the park), with the PRNJ making it near impossible trying to demand we pay $30,000 in fees. The Federal permits and licenses are FREE. We have to explore creative ways to avoid doing business in NJ even though we live here. We've been told to open the company in other states if we could. No wonder companies are racing to get out of our state.

History books saw this coming.

 

Harry

It's NOT inevitable. It's time to double down and get the message out.

the only way we can get this country back on the CORRECT path is elect CONSERVATIVES!

not democraps or rhinos! the media keeps fueling the socialist adgenda and people are being brainwashed.

until that stops and people realize what they have to lose, nothing will change.

just talk to someone who lived in Cuba, Russia, etc that is/was communist and ask how their lifestyle was.

you would be surprised LISTENING to what they say and WHY they left for a better place!

 

kinda seems like NJ getting a real CCW law to allow us all to carry.

there are ALOT of dreamers, but little do'ers.

With over 1 million gun owners in NJ, why arent we ALL fighting the fight?

that many votes can make HUGE changes!

 

look @ the Friends of the NRA dinner for example.....it was like pulling teeth trying to get a table of 10, nevertheless 20.

when will we all wake up, stop the key stoking and get this country (& state) back on track?

Maybe I am blind or a bit naive, but until 2009 I thought we had few to little problems in the USA.However, in the past few years the more research I did the more I realize how "Socialistic" our society has become. In the last ten years our free speech has been attacked like never before. Our 2A has been under attack for 50 years or more. Entitlement programs, government growing, regulations through the wazoo,government that is doing what THEY want to and not represent us, etc.

 

Honestly, I feel the only thing that differentiates us from Europe in the 1A, 2A and the some of the free thinkers we have left in society.However, they are coming under more fire than ever before. I am amazed when I talk to many of my friends they think this country is simply going through another cycle and everything will be okay.

 

Honestly, I was one of those people just a few short years ago. May I ask, who saw this coming? What do you see happening? If history repeats itself we are in very big trouble.

 

I don't think political ideology necessarily dictates one's position on 2A. There may be some correlation but probably nothing concrete. In the future I think those looking for a socialist resolution to our country's problems may even be likely to use arms to get what they want. Because, what they want is fair/equitable distribution of the goods. They do not believe they can obtain such a state under our current system. Socialism great on paper, rarely works in practice.

 

The same can be said for capitalism. Our country is being run into the ground not by socialism but by capitalism run amok. Capitalism is supposed to be private ownership in a free and competitive market for profit. The market is not "free" nor is it competitive in the true sense of the word. The game is rigged, the profits are massive, and the wealth is concentrated. The markets [the ones that matter] are about the haves and the have nots. The haves surely want to usurp the power of the have nots through any means available [see your comments on free speech, etc]. This makes perfect sense, it's easy to stay on top when you strip the middlings of the tools necessary for revolt.

 

The merits of programs such as medicare, social security, welfare, can be debated. However, these programs are not responsible for crippling this country. They would work fine if not for corruption and complete mismanagement of the government. I think making a few changes would have a huge positive impact on the country:

 

1. Get rid of the Fed - repair our monetary system [not exactly simple but doable]

2. Everyone, including corporations pays a fair flat tax

3. Start applying the brakes on the military industrial complex - we have failed to heed Eisenhower's warning

4. Bring manufacturing back to the U.S.

5. No more career politicians at the federal/state level. No more retirement/healthcare packages for working 1 term.

 

I agree with you, we are quite possibly headed for very dark times if we don't do something soon.

 

Bureaucracy - It's is at an all time high. Me and some friends are working on starting a company investing in the importation a certain type of liquor. Apparently this takes jumping through multiple federal and state hoops. Believe it or not, the Federal part is easiest (still no walk in the park), with the PRNJ making it near impossible trying to demand we pay $30,000 in fees. The Federal permits and licenses are FREE. We have to explore creative ways to avoid doing business in NJ even though we live here. We've been told to open the company in other states if we could. No wonder companies are racing to get out of our state.

 

[shameless plug]

I am probably looking for employment in PA shortly.. keep me in mind... 10+ years management experience (scheduling, inventory, payroll, HR, and so on...).. Computer skills (both use and repair)..

[/shameless plug]

the only way we can get this country back on the CORRECT path is elect CONSERVATIVES!

not democraps or rhinos! the media keeps fueling the socialist adgenda and people are being brainwashed.

until that stops and people realize what they have to lose, nothing will change.

just talk to someone who lived in Cuba, Russia, etc that is/was communist and ask how their lifestyle was.

you would be surprised LISTENING to what they say and WHY they left for a better place!

 

kinda seems like NJ getting a real CCW law to allow us all to carry.

there are ALOT of dreamers, but little do'ers.

With over 1 million gun owners in NJ, why arent we ALL fighting the fight?

that many votes can make HUGE changes!

 

look @ the Friends of the NRA dinner for example.....it was like pulling teeth trying to get a table of 10, nevertheless 20.

when will we all wake up, stop the key stoking and get this country (& state) back on track?

 

I agree with everything you say and here is the stark reality to your points:

 

#1) I work with a few people from Russia. They said "The money has run out in the Soviet Union so the Communist from there came to here...to steal money and power" It is that simple!

 

#2) Fight for CCW... times are tough and getting off of work to go to Trenton (daily) ain't possible. Even though it is important (CCW) providing for our family is more important.

 

I want CCW REAL bad as I see more and more riots and robberies. The only way for it to work in NJ is supporting SAF and others that will fight for this cause. Politicians don't care about our voice anymore... they only listen to money and power. That is it...

[shameless plug]

I am probably looking for employment in PA shortly.. keep me in mind... 10+ years management experience (scheduling, inventory, payroll, HR, and so on...).. Computer skills (both use and repair)..

[/shameless plug]

And how are your marksmanship skills against Leftist Zombie targets?

I see two main philosophies that fuel the dynamics between conservatives and progressives/statists... You have the people that believe in personal freedom and the responsibility and then you have the people that believe that humans cannot be given that freedom because they will abuse it.

 

I do not see free market capitalism as the problem. Instead I see the change from attempting to create a free market to that of corporatism. It is not capitalism or "crony capitalism" that is the problem, but rather crony corporatism that is fueled and backed by career politicians that at the very least want big governemt, but many of which want a more socialistic or marxist state.

 

 

[shameless plug]

I am probably looking for employment in PA shortly.. keep me in mind... 10+ years management experience (scheduling, inventory, payroll, HR, and so on...).. Computer skills (both use and repair)..

[/shameless plug]

 

PA is actually a very friendly state to do business in. The permit from them would cost $500 per year, to NJ's $10,000 per year. You have all the skills we would need, but at this point we're just getting off the ground. Will keep you in mind if this thing takes off and we do open that PA office.

One thing that contributes to this mess is people barking up the wrong tree. For example:

 

Gradual erosion of our rights - For instance the "Patriot Act"

 

The Patriot Act didn't give LE the power to do anything they hadn't been able to do in the past. It just made it easier for LE and more streamlined to catch terrorists. If you are not a terrorist the Patriot Act has had little negative effect on you and the general population. Yes it is a PITA getting your driver's license because you have to prove you are who you say you are. Is that that bad a thing? You also can't show up on the dock the day the cruise ship sails for the best deal as you haven't been checked through databases for terrorst activity.

 

Can LE find out what library books you've checked out and get a roving wiretap? Most certainly so if it is all part of a terrorist investigation. There has to be some substance not just fishing as many have wrongly claimed. Many of the subpeona powers of the Patriot Act have been in effect in relation to drug investigations for about 20 years to my personal knowledge. Why no outcry over that? I worked for an agency with much use for the Patriot Act for 4 years, from the signing to when I retired, and saw no abuses. Yes, some parts of the Patriot Act have been ruled unconstitutional and you'll find that with any law passed with so many issues passed as fast as it was.

 

If the Patriot Act is affecting so many people negatively please relate who and how? How has it affected people on this forum?

 

Attacking the Patriot Act has been a favorite of liberals and libertarians and I suppose it will continue.

 

Circumventing checks and balances, power creep - Rule by decree "executive orders"

 

Good and bad here. POTUS can issue EOs to meet immediate needs. I agree with some and don't agree with many.

 

I will agree that leaving it up to agency heads and AGs is a dangerous situation we don't have to look any further that NJ for that. The "gun laws" that the current AG has invoked by guidelines and opinions are the perfect example.

 

Unfair election practices - just read up on the Electoral College. Also, the 2 party system is in decline in the US, people want to vote for who they like regardless of their party affiliations. We should be looking at proportional voting systems.

 

If you want to dump the Electoral College you need a Constitutional Convention and appropriate amendments. Thay's the way it is unless due process changes it. The Electoral College was established to give smaller states a fair shake. What do you propose that will be better?

 

Proportional voting might work for the legislative branches but you what do you propose for executive positions? Someone who gets 20% of the popular vote becoming president? Eventually two parties will rise as the leaders anyway.

 

Fear of incarceration - There are so many state and federal laws on the books that the govt at any time

 

Not much of an argument from me on that. It reminds me of Janet Reno at a press conference after Columbine when she asked for more gun laws to prevent something like that happening again. A reporter asked her what her response would be to those who say "enforce the laws that are alreday on the books". Reno's response was "it doesn't matter whether or not we enforce them, we need more laws".

 

Militarization of the police - Perceived "us v. them" mentality. Military style raids , especially botched ones

 

"Militarization of the police" is directly related to the militarization of criminals that has grown over the past 40 years. I don't think you remember the murders of Officers Foster and Laurie or Piagentini and Jones in NYC or Trooper Werner Foster in NJ or about the 10 other police officers in the country the Black Liberation Army murdered. How about when Patty Hearst and her buddies in the Symbionese Liberation Army opened up with automatic weapons and the responding police were armed with 38 revolvers? This was the time SWAT became popular. How popular? It poured over into entertainment with movies like "Dirty Harry" and TV shows such as "Police Story" (one of the best), "Adam12" and of course "SWAT".

 

Let's roll it up to the present day. Cities controlled by gangs, drug lords used to control neighborhoods, now they control countries.

 

If you insist that police have no use for military type armament you probably also agree the average citizen shouldn't own a M4 type rifle or 30 rd magazine either.

 

The problem with SWAT is every little town has to have a team. Limited pool of personnel to pick from and limited funds to maintain training. Overused? In many cases yes. The town spent all this money to buy all this equpiment and all these weapons we have have to justify.

 

If properly trained, armed, and led SWAT type tactics result in fewer deaths and injuries to both sides. You don't need black BDUs to use military tactics.

 

Your link to the Cato Institute is interesting and like all statistics can be juggled. Up to 40,000 raids a year? That would mean 30,000 this year so far and only 6 reportable incidents. That's .0002%. Nothing gets down to zero. All incidents, all years averages out to less than 15 a year or .000375%.

 

One stat, "examples of paramilitray excess" who determines that? You, me or the Cato Institute. 3 diffrent answers on many I'm sure.

 

50 years ago buying ice cream cones for lost children and writing parking tickets may have been what many PDs did but not now. 50 years ago Lakewood was a sleepy resort town but not today.

 

Bureaucracy - It's is at an all time high.

 

Agreed as my following comments will support.

 

I see two main philosophies that fuel the dynamics between conservatives and progressives/statists... You have the people that believe in personal freedom and the responsibility and then you have the people that believe that humans cannot be given that freedom because they will abuse it.

 

Patriot Oak this is the answer! CCW, gun rights, banking, immigration, military industrial complex, and all the other problems would go away with people who believe in personal freedom and responsibility running the show. You can nitpick about this and that but this is the answer. Some regulation, you need that in a society but the less the better.

PA is actually a very friendly state to do business in. The permit from them would cost $500 per year, to NJ's $10,000 per year. You have all the skills we would need, but at this point we're just getting off the ground. Will keep you in mind if this thing takes off and we do open that PA office.

 

 

i have nothing but time...

With over 1 million gun owners in NJ

I hear this phrase continually about New Jersey, but who can validate this statement? I sometimes doubt it based on the present buying trends tracked in NICS. JMO

 

As for the statement "Honestly, who saw this coming," well, it's been a slow process but it is fleshing itself out every day in "theaters" across America. We are merely seeing history repeat itself in some instances. Take a look at the Wall Street protesters. A gaggle of angry misanthropes protesting capitalism, fueled by.......what? Their frustration and inability to adapt to change? Problems brought on by their own stupidity? I remember the protests in NYC in the 60's and across America. Remember them? The huge anti-war protests in 1967. The student takeovers of NYU and Columbia in '68? America's counter-cultural revolutionaries first got their voice in these forums, and emerged years later. Fellows like Abbie Hoffmann, Bill Ayers and Tom Hayden come to mind. Those same "activists" of the 60's grew up to become professors and lawyers and judges and politicians who are part of the "who" that's been shaping most of the liberal change in America for the last thirty years. The Wall Street protests are small compared to those of the 60's, and seem disjointed for they have no common voice or hero who has emerged from the clutter, but the power of Facebook, Twitter and YouTube has allowed them to engage a sizable audience and mobilize quickly. And, their visceral messages easily influence millions of young people who surf the 'net. Whether another "Bill Ayers" will emerge from this movement is doubtful. But, scan the crowd and its youthful figures there, for you are witnessing the future of America.

 

I find it interesting that many young faces in these crowds are probably people who cry for a cleaner environment, exude a "Go Green" mantra, yet they are stinking up the neighborhood with their trash and personal belongings. Guess their overzealous activism is blinding them to this irony. Interesting story: Occupy Wall Street

One thing that contributes to this mess is people barking up the wrong tree. For example:

 

Gradual erosion of our rights - For instance the "Patriot Act"

 

The Patriot Act didn't give LE the power to do anything they hadn't been able to do in the past. It just made it easier for LE and more streamlined to catch terrorists. If you are not a terrorist the Patriot Act has had little negative effect on you and the general population. Yes it is a PITA getting your driver's license because you have to prove you are who you say you are. Is that that bad a thing? You also can't show up on the dock the day the cruise ship sails for the best deal as you haven't been checked through databases for terrorst activity.

 

Can LE find out what library books you've checked out and get a roving wiretap? Most certainly so if it is all part of a terrorist investigation. There has to be some substance not just fishing as many have wrongly claimed. Many of the subpeona powers of the Patriot Act have been in effect in relation to drug investigations for about 20 years to my personal knowledge. Why no outcry over that? I worked for an agency with much use for the Patriot Act for 4 years, from the signing to when I retired, and saw no abuses. Yes, some parts of the Patriot Act have been ruled unconstitutional and you'll find that with any law passed with so many issues passed as fast as it was.

 

If the Patriot Act is affecting so many people negatively please relate who and how? How has it affected people on this forum?

 

Attacking the Patriot Act has been a favorite of liberals and libertarians and I suppose it will continue.

 

Circumventing checks and balances, power creep - Rule by decree "executive orders"

 

Good and bad here. POTUS can issue EOs to meet immediate needs. I agree with some and don't agree with many.

 

I will agree that leaving it up to agency heads and AGs is a dangerous situation we don't have to look any further that NJ for that. The "gun laws" that the current AG has invoked by guidelines and opinions are the perfect example.

 

Unfair election practices - just read up on the Electoral College. Also, the 2 party system is in decline in the US, people want to vote for who they like regardless of their party affiliations. We should be looking at proportional voting systems.

 

If you want to dump the Electoral College you need a Constitutional Convention and appropriate amendments. Thay's the way it is unless due process changes it. The Electoral College was established to give smaller states a fair shake. What do you propose that will be better?

 

Proportional voting might work for the legislative branches but you what do you propose for executive positions? Someone who gets 20% of the popular vote becoming president? Eventually two parties will rise as the leaders anyway.

 

Fear of incarceration - There are so many state and federal laws on the books that the govt at any time

 

Not much of an argument from me on that. It reminds me of Janet Reno at a press conference after Columbine when she asked for more gun laws to prevent something like that happening again. A reporter asked her what her response would be to those who say "enforce the laws that are alreday on the books". Reno's response was "it doesn't matter whether or not we enforce them, we need more laws".

 

Militarization of the police - Perceived "us v. them" mentality. Military style raids , especially botched ones

 

"Militarization of the police" is directly related to the militarization of criminals that has grown over the past 40 years. I don't think you remember the murders of Officers Foster and Laurie or Piagentini and Jones in NYC or Trooper Werner Foster in NJ or about the 10 other police officers in the country the Black Liberation Army murdered. How about when Patty Hearst and her buddies in the Symbionese Liberation Army opened up with automatic weapons and the responding police were armed with 38 revolvers? This was the time SWAT became popular. How popular? It poured over into entertainment with movies like "Dirty Harry" and TV shows such as "Police Story" (one of the best), "Adam12" and of course "SWAT".

 

Let's roll it up to the present day. Cities controlled by gangs, drug lords used to control neighborhoods, now they control countries.

 

If you insist that police have no use for military type armament you probably also agree the average citizen shouldn't own a M4 type rifle or 30 rd magazine either.

 

The problem with SWAT is every little town has to have a team. Limited pool of personnel to pick from and limited funds to maintain training. Overused? In many cases yes. The town spent all this money to buy all this equpiment and all these weapons we have have to justify.

 

If properly trained, armed, and led SWAT type tactics result in fewer deaths and injuries to both sides. You don't need black BDUs to use military tactics.

 

Your link to the Cato Institute is interesting and like all statistics can be juggled. Up to 40,000 raids a year? That would mean 30,000 this year so far and only 6 reportable incidents. That's .0002%. Nothing gets down to zero. All incidents, all years averages out to less than 15 a year or .000375%.

 

One stat, "examples of paramilitray excess" who determines that? You, me or the Cato Institute. 3 diffrent answers on many I'm sure.

 

50 years ago buying ice cream cones for lost children and writing parking tickets may have been what many PDs did but not now. 50 years ago Lakewood was a sleepy resort town but not today.

 

Bureaucracy - It's is at an all time high.

 

Agreed as my following comments will support.

 

I see two main philosophies that fuel the dynamics between conservatives and progressives/statists... You have the people that believe in personal freedom and the responsibility and then you have the people that believe that humans cannot be given that freedom because they will abuse it.

 

Patriot Oak this is the answer! CCW, gun rights, banking, immigration, military industrial complex, and all the other problems would go away with people who believe in personal freedom and responsibility running the show. You can nitpick about this and that but this is the answer. Some regulation, you need that in a society but the less the better.

 

Patriot Act - I agree with the purpose of the Act; however, I do not agree with the lack of checks and balances for it to be misused. If there is a potential for misuse, there is a high likelihood that it will happen. Couple this with the secrecy behind how it is used is a dangerous recipe. Good info here that saves me from typing it out.

 

Unfair election practices - I am by not means an expert and am unsure of the best approach for Presidential elections, but I do know enough about the electoral college to know that the system needs to be changed or tweaked. This article explains reasons behind keeping and changing the current system. I am most concerned with the last two or three paragraphs. It is a complex issue, and one that will take a sophisticated solution.

 

Militarization of the Police - I'm all for having our LE well equipped to handle the threats they encounter. I'm all for LE having AR carbines in their trunks just in case for instance. What I am against is no-knock/quick knock type raids with warrants obtained under sketchy circumstances. There also has to be justification when using SWAT type teams for these types of things, such as good reason to suspect dangerous armed criminals are present. A tip that someone is dealing pot from their home is not enough to justify sending in a fully equipped SWAT team for instance. This does not only happen in high crime areas as I'm sure you can remember this example.

I agree with the purpose of the Act; however, I do not agree with the lack of checks and balances for it to be misused. If there is a potential for misuse, there is a high likelihood that it will happen. Couple this with the secrecy behind how it is used is a dangerous recipe. Good info here that saves me from typing it out.

 

Contrary to what the media says there are checks and balances for the provisions of the Patriot Act. You need to prove to a judge why you need that wiretap or search warrant. You have to prove periodically are getting evidence on the wiretap for it to be renewed. These warants and subpeonas are not handed out like the media would like you to believe. Anything can be misused. I have seen LEOs lose their jobs and go to jail for lying on affidavits.

 

Secrecy. Good point. Should the US post authentication codes for nuclear weapons on the internet? Thta's ridiculous of course and so is believing the public should know everything. We can't expect to get anywhere if we make everything public record. Terrorism and foreign intelligence investigations require secrecy to protect what we know and those who helped gather the information. They are released on a need to know basis. if you're charged with a crime of terrorism or espionage you and your lawyer will have access to that info if required. A judge determines what's required. That is what need to know is all about.

 

Unfair election practices -

 

I am most concerned with the last two or three paragraphs. It is a complex issue, and one that will take a sophisticated solution

 

Sure if you are from a state with a larger population your vote counts more because there are more people in your state and you have electors. If you are from a state with a smaller population (Alaska has only one member of Congress) you get a little more say as you have 3 electoral votes. This will never amount to equal those of a large population state but is there to prevent larger states from determining an election. A check and balance system and you seem to be in favor of those.

 

What I am against is no-knock/quick knock type raids with warrants obtained under sketchy circumstances.

 

How much time should there be between the knock and announce and forced entry to allow the suspects time to arm themselves and/or destroy evidence. Police surprising and overwhelming the suspects rapidly results in less danger for all.

 

 

There also has to be justification when using SWAT type teams for these types of things, such as good reason to suspect dangerous armed criminals are present. A tip that someone is dealing pot from their home is not enough to justify sending in a fully equipped SWAT team for instance. This does not only happen in high crime areas as I'm sure you can remember this example.

 

As I said previously SWAT teams are overused in some areas to justify their existence. Keep in mind that arresting someone with a gun is an everyday occurence in Newark, Elizabeth, or Camden and rare in smaller communities. What establishes good reason to believe they are armed and dangerous? A marijuana dealer you say? Several years ago I was working with NYPD Narcotics and they told me the marijuana dealers are the most violent and most likely to be armed. This is at a time when NYPD would just take his grass and issue a summons. I can relate dozens of instances I have personal knowledge of where what should have been a seemingly routine, uneventful arrest turned violent because of the defendant.

 

What exactly is the problem about using SWAT teams? The uniforms look too military? What if they just wore raid jackets?

 

Your link about the incident in MD has a lot of questions unanswered. The police send a package of drugs to an address and then arrest the occupants for dealing? Sounds like entrapment to me. There is more to this story.

I think with taxes so out of control they need to tone down the "SWAT" guys. If needed, the State Police should provide the service. There is no need for towns to have SWAT. It is just a little overzealous for me. The State is always standing by and have better trained personnel than Barney Feif who just got issued an AR and thinks he is is MR Bad Arse. I do see a militarization of the police and a general disconnect between them and those that they are sworn to "protect." It is turning into an US vs Them mentality and I dont like the way things are heading. There is a complete lack of trust between the two and that never ends well.

 

As for the police carrying the latest grandest new fancy AR or other rifles with all the doo dads hanging off. I feel there is no need for every vehicle or cop on the beat. Too much in the way of logistics for the way of training and keeping an appropriate ammo supply. Figure if your small dept has 20 active officers that need to qualify once a month, that turns into a bunch of ammo quickly. Maybe every fourth car is acceptable..... AS LONG AS IT FITS THE CRITERIA FOR THE NJ AWB. Just because you are out there to enforce the law doesn't mean you are above it. They should have to follow the rules that any one of us has to. And then if you need more than one per every four cars then you call the State Police for backup, our taxes pay for them utilize them.

 

Overall I am in disgust with the Govt waste and it is appalling to see where it goes.

What exactly is the problem about using SWAT teams? The uniforms look too military? What if they just wore raid jackets?

 

Swat should not be allowed to wear balaclavas. You don't get to dress like a ninja or a cat burglar. If you're not willing to show yourself as a face of law enforcement, tough. Do something else.

 

Also, this "destroying evidence" thing always cracks me up. If the evidence can be destroyed in the 60 or 90 seconds you give as a warning, it wasn't enough evidence to warrant a hot entry.

 

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

Finally, I'd like to revise the rules for the WOD (War on Dogs). You shoot a dog, just because, we'll, you're all suited up and you're itching to shoot something, then you lose your job. This "safety of the officer" is bs. Most of the times the dogs aren't even threatening just barking and if you know anything about dogs, if they're going to attack, they don't bark. The SWAT jackholes see a dog and it's a free fire zone. See above noted case about the Mayor who had the hot invasion. The exception is pits and rotties. Open season, no limit. Golden labs, collies, beagles? Bull.

 

One more thing...

 

I am mostly laughing at the occupy wall street folks using all their corporate gear and begging for handouts, a "living wage" of $20/hr, loan forgiveness, etc. BS, get to work, earn something.

 

This one guy has it right on though, for the most part. He loses me on the Ron Paul and the military industrial complex bit, but the stuff about the banking is right on the money.

 

I have often wondered this..

all of us here are NOT criminals.. (or we could not legally own guns).. so if someone smashed in our door and woke us up out of a dead sleep.. the LAST thing in our minds would be police? so in a situation where the police "break into" the wrong house.. and they are met with semi automatic rifle fire.. yeah ok.. you are not going to "beat" a highly trained police unit.. but you could possibly take out one or two before the situation is clear? so what happens then? whos "fault" is that? if police break into the wrong house.. that should be a criminal act... forced entry is not OK because it is an "accident"... if the cops break into the wrong house.. and a homeowner shoots them because they are dressed like a ninja.. are they in trouble?

 

 

Excellent video, but that kid is an obvious plant into OWS. He's too well-reasoned and intellectually organized to be in league with those idiots. The general tone of the OWS crowd is one of mindless "Hate the Rich/Banks". This guy has actual, well-articulated reasons. And he's a Nationalist, he gets that America is the "last, best hope". The rest of that group generally doesn't like its own country, at least that's what I've hard from them.

 

Speaking of mindless zombies that will one day overwhelm us, check out the drone-like chanting from Occupy Atlanta:

These are the people this discussion should be worried about --mindless, hungry robots who want your stuff because they feel they deserve it.

 

 

This one guy has it right on though, for the most part. He loses me on the Ron Paul and the military industrial complex bit, but the stuff about the banking is right on the money.

 

 

 

It is odd that you are "lost" on the Ron Paul bit. That kid is basically repeating what Ron Paul is stating in his book, End the Fed. I have read that book, and Ron Paul is RIGHT. He has been saying the same thing for decades, and only now are people starting to listen to him.

 

Who predicted the 2007 market crash? Ron Paul did, in 2003. Nobody believed him then. They do now.

 

Also, look into the origins of the term, "military-industrial complex". You'll find that it was originated by 5 star General of the Army (and later President) Eisenhower, in his farewell speech in 1960. That term references the special interest groups that have formed to back the various military contractors that provide arms and munitions to the U.S. Gov't, as well as exporting said arms and munitions to "friendly" nations. All for immense profits. These organizations make money off of war. It behooves them to keep their principal customer (U.S.A.) at war. Thus, there are special interest groups that put immense pressure on U.S. Representatives and Senators to vote to their gain.

Also, look into the origins of the term, "military-industrial complex". You'll find that it was originated by 5 star General of the Army (and later President) Eisenhower, in his farewell speech in 1960.

 

I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity. - Dwight D. Eisenhower

There is no need for towns to have SWAT. It is just a little overzealous for me. The State is always standing by and have better trained personnel than Barney Feif who just got issued an AR and thinks he is is MR Bad Arse.

 

Bigger cities may have justification for SWAT but I generally agree with you on this. NJSP is very well trained and effective. The problem is if the need is not identified well in advance NJSP may not be able to respond as quickly as needed. Maybe the County Prosecutor's Office assume this responsibility.

 

AS LONG AS IT FITS THE CRITERIA FOR THE NJ AWB. Just because you are out there to enforce the law doesn't mean you are above it. They should have to follow the rules that any one of us has to.

 

I wouldn't put any restriction on the numbers of weapons as long as the agnecy was willing to provide the training and qualification.

 

You have to face the fact police need to be above the law in order to enforce it and provide the services you expect.

 

The police need to be exempt from the law when they speed or go through red lights taking an infant with trobule breathing to the hospital. They need to be able to use force to effect an arrest. They need to be able to demand things from people and arrest them if they fail to comply. About the only thing police "get away with" off duty is they can carry >than 15 rd magazine off duty. Stupid law? yes, but they can "get away" with that.

 

Swat should not be allowed to wear balaclavas. You don't get to dress like a ninja or a cat burglar. If you're not willing to show yourself as a face of law enforcement, tough. Do something else.

 

There are some valid reasons for SWAT to have balaclavas but I agree to conceal their identity is not one of them.

 

Also, this "destroying evidence" thing always cracks me up. If the evidence can be destroyed in the 60 or 90 seconds you give as a warning, it wasn't enough evidence to warrant a hot entry.

 

Giving 60-90 seconds as a warning is ridiculous. If this were done you will find many more LEOs and suspects killed serving warrants. 60-90 seconds is enugh time to flush a pound of weed, coke, or heroin (maybe more if to have one of the power flush toilets). Are any of these considered enough evidence? 60-90 seconds allows a lot of time for evidence to be destroyed and suspects to escape or arm themselves. 60-90 seconds would also crack you up if you were in the business of servong search and arrest warrants.

 

I have often wondered this..

all of us here are NOT criminals.. (or we could not legally own guns).. so if someone smashed in our door and woke us up out of a dead sleep.. the LAST thing in our minds would be police? so in a situation where the police "break into" the wrong house.. and they are met with semi automatic rifle fire..

 

I see your concern. However you need to look at the facts. The main purpose of a "hot" or dynamic entry is gain immediate control of the occupants to minimize injury to anyone. Done properly, it will be over in 30 seconds or less. Done properly, you will hear the entry team yelling police as they clear areas and even their ninja suits, raid jackets, or body armor will have "police" promonantly displayed. You will have little time to react.

 

Using the stats Dan provided in the link in post #4 there will be maybe 7 warrants served on innocent people this year nationwide so the probability of it happening is very low.

I'm not a huffpost kind of guy, but this article has some good points..

 

Regarding the military style ninja outfit:

"After 9/11, police departments in some cities, including Washington, D.C., also switched to battle dress uniforms (BDUs) instead the traditional police uniform. Critics says even subtle changes like a more militarized uniform can change both public perception of the police and how police see their own role in the community. One such critic, retired police sergeant Bill Donelly, wrote in a letter to the editor of the Washington Post, "One tends to throw caution to the wind when wearing ‘commando-chic’ regalia, a bulletproof vest with the word ‘POLICE’ emblazoned on both sides, and when one is armed with high tech weaponry."

 

SWAT team deployment rates, this goes to 2001, I wish it had up to current. Is it really 'getting that bad' out there. If the SWAT deployment rates follow violent and serious crime rates, we're really going down the tubes..

 

"by the early 1980s there were 3,000 annual SWAT deployments, by 1996 there were 30,000 and by 2001 there were 40,000. The average police department deployed its SWAT team about once a month in the early 1980s. By 1995, it was seven times a month. Kraska found that 75 to80 percent of those deployments were to serve search warrants in drug investigations."

 

There is more than wrong address home invasions by SWAT teams, there is drastic misuse as well.

 

"SWAT teams have been used to break up neighborhood

, sent into bars and fraternities suspected of allowing underage drinking, and even to enforce alcohol and occupational licensing regulations. Earlier this year, the Department of Education sent its SWAT team to the home of someone suspected of defrauding the federal student loan program."

I see your concern. However you need to look at the facts. The main purpose of a "hot" or dynamic entry is gain immediate control of the occupants to minimize injury to anyone. Done properly, it will be over in 30 seconds or less. Done properly, you will hear the entry team yelling police as they clear areas and even their ninja suits, raid jackets, or body armor will have "police" promonantly displayed. You will have little time to react.

 

 

while I am not some highly trained "operator" I am on the 4th floor of the townhouse I live in... and I sleep with a loaded gun next to me.. police written all over them.. yelling police.. yeah I get all that.. but as you pointed out.. this is all going to happen VERY fast.. what I see and what I react to? I am just saying.. I have NO problem with the tactics used to take down a VIOLENT DANGEROUS criminal.. I understand why they are needed.. but in the same breath.. I would only want these tactics employed in a situation where there is a complete positive ID, and you the authorities are SURE.. you say there is always some doubt? if there is doubt.. ANY doubt.. then it is not right to employ those types of tactics.. that operation has a LOT of different possible BAD outcomes.. it being the wrong house is absolutely the WORST situation.. the worst situation for everyone.. and "raiding" the "wrong house" is a gross violation of an individuals rights.. IMO of course..

"One tends to throw caution to the wind when wearing ‘commando-chic’ regalia, a bulletproof vest with the word ‘POLICE’ emblazoned on both sides, and when one is armed with high tech weaponry."

 

This is true. Look at what happened to ATF at Waco with David Koresh. I've already stated that many local PD SWAT teams are undertrained. No argument from me on this.

 

I don't think BDUs ahould replace a regular police uniform if it is but there needs to be something like a rough duty uniform for police.

 

SWAT team deployment rates, this goes to 2001, I wish it had up to current. Is it really 'getting that bad' out there. If the SWAT deployment rates follow violent and serious crime rates, we're really going down the tubes

 

I've already said SWAT teams are overused by many agencies to justify their existence and expense.

 

Kraska found that 75 to80 percent of those deployments were to serve search warrants in drug investigations."

 

Most of the search and arrest warrants I participated in were part of drug investigations so I speak from experience. Where there is drugs there is usually money and weapons. Not debating the effectiveness of the drug war just stating facts.

 

All of the people in the drug business are not in the ghetto. Probably half the warrants I've been involved with were on residences in middle or upper class neighborhoods. They all follow the same formula of drugs+money+weapons.

 

SWAT teams have been used to break up neighborhood poker games, sent into bars and fraternities suspected of allowing underage drinking, and even to enforce alcohol and occupational licensing regulations. Earlier this year, the Department of Education sent its SWAT team to the home of someone suspected of defrauding the federal student loan program."

 

Once again overuse to justify existence. No excuse for any of that happening. No attempt at defending those actions you have related here because there is none. I know such things happen but no LEO I know or myself have ever been part of such stupidity.

 

I would only want these tactics employed in a situation where there is a complete positive ID, and you the authorities are SURE.. you say there is always some doubt? if there is doubt.. ANY doubt.. then it is not right to employ those types of tactics

 

As I said before if you wnat police to be absolutely sure before they use a dynamic or "hot" entry you can expect a lot more dead cops and a lot more barricaded suspect situations. Many times the only knowledge police have is there is the probable cause needed to get the warrant which has to satisfy the judge.

 

You say you have a loaded gun nearby when you sleep. I suppose most of us on this forum do. That's just in case, right? What's wrong with the police controlling the occupants during a warrant rapidly just in case?

 

Malsua said earlier "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." One of the best teachers I ever had gave me a bit of advice when I was starting to teach. He told me "start out tough, you can always lighten up but if you start easy its hard to get tough". This worked for me teaching and it works when serving warrants. The difference is you have already established there is someone breaking the law when you have PC for a warrant. You need to control the people first and make adjustments from there. You typically see these when you are stopped by a Trooper, he or she is always polite but makes sure you know they are doing business.

 

There are people in this thread that don't like the uniforms, don't like the tactics, or don't like the weapons. Some don't like all three. I never see LEOs on gun forums tell everyone else how to conduct their business. It never ceases to amaze me that everyone on a gun forum knows better how a LEO should do their job. You may not like it but its not illegal.

We're dealing with the people of the '60s coming into power. It annoys the hell out of me since my family has been here since 1638. We had 200 members fight in the revolution, one of my ancestors was in the boat with Washington as he crossed the Deleware, and what do I have to show for their efforts? It annoys me that people are trying to change the country my ancestors helped found.

Excellent video, but that kid is an obvious plant into The Tea Party. He's too well-reasoned and intellectually organized to be in league with those idiots. The general tone of the Tea Party crowd is one of mindless "Hate the Rich/Banks". This guy has actual, well-articulated reasons. And he's a Nationalist, he gets that America is the "last, best hope". The rest of that group generally doesn't like its own country, at least that's what I've hard from them.

 

Now read the quote. See what I did there? Changed it from OWS to the Tea Party. I am in NO way trying to bash either side, but what you are saying about OWS can also said for members of the Tea Party or any other political movement out there. To call the OWS crowd a bunch of idiots, you would have to say it about every other political group out there because there are idiots in every group. Again, I am not trying to bash any political group or organization. I am simply pointing out that every group has morons.