To be honest I was intruiqued by your post until I got to the end. Bottom, the oil companies are seeing billions, I said billions, in profits each year. Doesn't matter if you're using old math or new math, there's a problem with that much profit being made.

 

Sorry, no, the goverment has taken over enough industries lately, lets not encourage them to take over more because their profits are too high They are charging what you are willing to pay. If you have a choice of buying more economical cars if you don't like the price. Instead, by your own admission, you chose to purchase a car that has worse mileage then cars from 20 years ago even though far more economical choices are available. You can even buy one of 3 or 4 electrical cars. At some point we need to take responsibility for our own choices.

 

It is not that like paying more for gas, but I recognize then when I bought at heavy SUV I made a conscious choice to spent more of my income on fueling and be more dependent on a fluctuating market. You can blame the prices on anything you want, you don't have to agree with my opinion, but you don't see this kind of price changes in commodities no one wants. This tells me we are willing to pay it.

Sorry, no, the goverment has taken over enough industries lately, lets not encourage them to take over more because their profits are too high They are charging what you are willing to pay. If you have a choice of buying more economical cars if you don't like the price. Instead, by your own admission, you chose to purchase a car that has worse mileage then cars from 20 years ago even though far more economical choices are available. You can even buy one of 3 or 4 electrical cars. At some point we need to take responsibility for our own choices.

 

It is not that like paying more for gas, but I recognize then when I bought at heavy SUV I made a conscious choice to spent more of my income on fueling and be more dependent on a fluctuating market. You can blame the prices on anything you want, you don't have to agree with my opinion, but you don't see this kind of price changes in commodities no one wants. This tells me we are willing to pay it.

 

 

Sorry, you have me confused with someone else. I never said anything like that, but I understand your point.

Sorry, you have me confused with someone else. I never said anything like that, but I understand your point.

 

You are correct, I apologize that was a different poster earlier in the thread.

Sorry, no, the goverment has taken over enough industries lately, lets not encourage them to take over more because their profits are too high They are charging what you are willing to pay. If you have a choice of buying more economical cars if you don't like the price. Instead, by your own admission, you chose to purchase a car that has worse mileage then cars from 20 years ago even though far more economical choices are available. You can even buy one of 3 or 4 electrical cars. At some point we need to take responsibility for our own choices.

 

I was the one who used my vehicle as an example. That was probably a bad idea because judging by the replies it obviously obscured the point I was trying to make. I personally am not affected by the gas price, they don't affect my bottom line much. My point was that we haven't innovated where it counts when it comes to vehicles. More HP - great, better handling - terrific, nicer interior - fantastic, a modest gain in efficiency - super, same powerplant that keeps us suckling at the teet of the oil companies - disgraceful. We don't have a viable alternative to the internal combustion engine. By viable I mean something that is cleaner, more efficient, and scalable. That is what bothers me. At this point though I think we can all agree to disagree

I'll agree that we don't have a viable alternative.

Actually the US has enough natural resources to become almost self sufficient. For example the "Destin Dome" aka "the nipple" which is off the coast of Florida. It is the largest natural gas deposit in the world but yet we are not allowed to drill for it. The US is the Middle East of Coal but yet our environmental regulations are so stringent that coal is not used to its full potential. There are other resources that could be used to free up some of the oil in this country but, we arent going for it. I understand that we need to protect the environment but when regulations are killing industry when we are in the midst of a depression, we need to bend the rules. My feeling from an insiders perspective is that US politicians want to be somewhat dependent on Middle Eastern oil because if we were self sufficient their economies would collapse. The economics of the Middle East is based on one commodity which is oil, if a major buyer of that commodity pulls out and stops consumption of your good, there is a surplus of Middle Eastern oil which would drive the price down. Its just supply and demand. The economy over there would fall like a house of cards bringing the region into chaos. We have the ability to produce enough oil domestically to be self sufficient I have seen the geological surveys proving this but the govt wont allow us to drill for it. Politicians are keeping us dependent on foreign oil to keep the Middle Eastern and global economies stable for the moment. But that's just my opinion. Its just a dog and pony show.

To be honest I was intruiqued by your post until I got to the end. Bottom, the oil companies are seeing billions, I said billions, in profits each year. Doesn't matter if you're using old math or new math, there's a problem with that much profit being made.

 

I'm sorry, did we all of a sudden transport ourselves to 1950s USSR?? Since when did we become a country that tries to limit how much profit a company can make legitimately? ... mind-boggling...

Actually the US has enough natural resources to become almost self sufficient. For example the "Destin Dome" aka "the nipple" which is off the coast of Florida. It is the largest natural gas deposit in the world but yet we are not allowed to drill for it. The US is the Middle East of Coal but yet our environmental regulations are so stringent that coal is not used to its full potential. There are other resources that could be used to free up some of the oil in this country but, we arent going for it. I understand that we need to protect the environment but when regulations are killing industry when we are in the midst of a depression, we need to bend the rules. My feeling from an insiders perspective is that US politicians want to be somewhat dependent on Middle Eastern oil because if we were self sufficient their economies would collapse. The economics of the Middle East is based on one commodity which is oil, if a major buyer of that commodity pulls out and stops consumption of your good, there is a surplus of Middle Eastern oil which would drive the price down. Its just supply and demand. The economy over there would fall like a house of cards bringing the region into chaos. We have the ability to produce enough oil domestically to be self sufficient I have seen the geological surveys proving this but the govt wont allow us to drill for it. Politicians are keeping us dependent on foreign oil to keep the Middle Eastern and global economies stable for the moment. But that's just my opinion. Its just a dog and pony show.

 

Just my understanding (which I acknowledge may be flawed), but the oil and gas reserves that we have in this country were until recently much harder and more expensive to get to (shale, deep water etc) and weren't viable until recently. Also, oil/gas/other resources aren't generally sold directly from a country to a country but go through a commodities market. Our home produced crude would go into said market and obviously be cheaper for us because of slightly lower transportation costs, but given the fact the Obama administration has delayed the Keystone pipeline which would help transport the crude from Canada & North Dakota to refineries in the south the transportation cost savings may not be that high.

 

I guess my point is that yes now we have the technology and price incentive to become a major oil/gas producer (even exporter) but it's going to take at least 5-10yrs and in the meantime demand keeps growing.

Actually the US has enough natural resources to become almost self sufficient. For example the "Destin Dome" aka "the nipple" which is off the coast of Florida. It is the largest natural gas deposit in the world but yet we are not allowed to drill for it. The US is the Middle East of Coal but yet our environmental regulations are so stringent that coal is not used to its full potential. There are other resources that could be used to free up some of the oil in this country but, we arent going for it. I understand that we need to protect the environment but when regulations are killing industry when we are in the midst of a depression, we need to bend the rules. My feeling from an insiders perspective is that US politicians want to be somewhat dependent on Middle Eastern oil because if we were self sufficient their economies would collapse. The economics of the Middle East is based on one commodity which is oil, if a major buyer of that commodity pulls out and stops consumption of your good, there is a surplus of Middle Eastern oil which would drive the price down. Its just supply and demand. The economy over there would fall like a house of cards bringing the region into chaos. We have the ability to produce enough oil domestically to be self sufficient I have seen the geological surveys proving this but the govt wont allow us to drill for it. Politicians are keeping us dependent on foreign oil to keep the Middle Eastern and global economies stable for the moment. But that's just my opinion. Its just a dog and pony show.

 

Bend the rules? Like the captain of the valdez? Like BP in the gulf? The oceans are almost fished out do we want to kill what's left by drowning them in oil? Yes, we have massive natural gas reserves but as I understand it (as Spaceman stated) the infrastructure isn't as robust as it is for oil so it's more expensive.

 

Our politicians want to avoid chaos in the middle east? They certainly have a funny way of showing it. I'd say it's pretty chaotic over there already. And if Iran keeps up this Bullsh*t with Hormuz the situation will continue to deteriorate.

I'm sorry, did we all of a sudden transport ourselves to 1950s USSR?? Since when did we become a country that tries to limit how much profit a company can make legitimately? ... mind-boggling...

 

 

I'm not suggesting to limit profits in that sense. I'm questioning your figures and the profit margins that are out there. There's one thing to make a profit. It's another thing to take advantage of someone by making the profit margins so outrageous. For example (and I'm making these numbers up for the point of this example), a piece of 4x8 plywood on any day of the week costs $25. Natural disasters hit, hurricanes occur, there's still plenty of plywood in supply, but all of a sudden that piece of plywood now costs $50. There's no reason, other than greed and disregard for raking people over the coals for this type of pricing. The same hold true with gasoline. The difference between gasoline and other products is that it's pretty much required still. Yes, we're getting closer with all the electric car technology, etc, but gasoline and oil is still required for manys day to day usage. Because of that fact, these oil company's have no concerns about f*cking the average Joe.

Then don't buy it.

Then don't buy it.

 

 

Easier said than done.

For example (and I'm making these numbers up for the point of this example), a piece of 4x8 plywood on any day of the week costs $25. Natural disasters hit, hurricanes occur, there's still plenty of plywood in supply, but all of a sudden that piece of plywood now costs $50. There's no reason, other than greed and disregard for raking people over the coals for this type of pricing.

 

Demand goes up, price must follow. This works in your favor. Suppose it stays at $25. A guy with a flatbed shows up and buys it all. You show up and there's nothing left. Now you're only recourse is to go to that guy and pay $100/sheet.

 

If the price had been allowed to naturally go to $50, people will buy what they need and no more. This is especially important in fungible commodities. Do you recall a few years back when oil was going crazy? The Chinese were still selling gas at the state mandated price. Smart people saw this early on and bought as much as they could. At one point, there was a traffic jam in Shen Zhen that lasted 2 weeks because cars ran out of gas. There was none to be had, anywhere, at any price because of hording.

Bend the rules? Like the captain of the valdez? Like BP in the gulf? The oceans are almost fished out do we want to kill what's left by drowning them in oil? Yes, we have massive natural gas reserves but as I understand it (as Spaceman stated) the infrastructure isn't as robust as it is for oil so it's more expensive.

 

As someone who was at the BP incident I can say that it wasn't nearly what the media reported. Isn't it amazing how all the oil mysteriously disappeared in less than 6 mos...... Most of what was seen on the news wasn't oil, it was unfiltered natural gas. I was the guy there, taking the samples, filming the video every day.Most people dont realize that even though the moratorium was officially lifted in October ,conveniently before the election, many rigs including my own didn't get issued a permit to drill until July. If they want to hold us to that standard why didn't they do a moratorium on Airlines after a crash to evaluate flight safety, or any time there is a fatal car crash? As for environmental regulation, yes it is way overboard and overzealous. The newest refinery in the US was built in the 70's. They have allowed modernization of the refineries but they have not approved any new refineries being built. That is limiting us and forcing us to use antiquated infrastructure. Bend a few corners, heck take back some of the new BS regulations that have come out. Look at small towns in PA for example. The EPA keeps coming out with new regulatoins that there was no chance that the coal mines could keep up with guess what. The mines went out of business because they couldn't meet the new standards and now many towns are just ghost towns. Isn't that what you want to do in the middle of a depression, kill yet another American industry. Now if the economy was 100% happy, sure lets improve our infrastructure and get green. But when they keep coming out with new regulations in all industries not just the oil industry, during a time of economic hardship guess what, business cant keep up and will be forced to shut their doors. Isn't that great, lets lay off some American workers and save the Mongolian Butt Beatle. I say lets review some of the BS laws that are restraining our growth and for just a while put the American worker first until the economy is back on its feet, we modernize, and become the industrial powerhouse that we once were.

As someone who was at the BP incident I can say that it wasn't nearly what the media reported... If they want to hold us to that standard why didn't they do a moratorium on Airlines after a crash to evaluate flight safety, or any time there is a fatal car crash? As for environmental regulation, yes it is way overboard and overzealous. The newest refinery in the US was built in the 70's. They have allowed modernization of the refineries but they have not approved any new refineries being built. That is limiting us and forcing us to use antiquated infrastructure. Bend a few corners, heck take back some of the new BS regulations that have come out. Look at small towns in PA for example. The EPA keeps coming out with new regulatoins that there was no chance that the coal mines could keep up with guess what. The mines went out of business because they couldn't meet the new standards and now many towns are just ghost towns. Isn't that what you want to do in the middle of a depression, kill yet another American industry. Now if the economy was 100% happy, sure lets improve our infrastructure and get green. But when they keep coming out with new regulations in all industries not just the oil industry, during a time of economic hardship guess what, business cant keep up and will be forced to shut their doors. Isn't that great, lets lay off some American workers and save the Mongolian Butt Beatle. I say lets review some of the BS laws that are restraining our growth and for just a while put the American worker first until the economy is back on its feet, we modernize, and become the industrial powerhouse that we once were.

 

I'm not sure what your exact role was in the gulf but there are plenty of studies (not paid for by BP or any oil related entity) that clearly state there is oil all over the gulf. On the sea floor, in the water column, and on the surface. I've heard first hand accounts of the damage that differ from your accounts. I don't question their motives in relaying this information because they aren't flaming liberals or crazy environmentalists and they would have no reason to BS me. Just because it disperses over time doesn't mean it hasn't and isn't doing damage. The fact of the matter is that millions of gallons of oil was wasted and is now damaging the environment because of greed. All of the companies involved seemed to put profits over safety, quality, etc. The only thing the average publicly owned company worries about these days is profit even if they have to cook the books to gain.

 

I tend to agree with the libertarian view when it comes to politics but I don't see how a "free market" or deregulation will correct for this type of behavior. We are so dependent on oil that we cannot do without it. Boycotting one particular company does nothing as oil will just be sold through other refineries. As consumers we can't control where the gasoline we buy is being sourced.

 

That isn't to say we shouldn't remove stupid regulations. I'm all for that but considering the job of being a legislator is now a full time position what else do those jacka**es have to do but come up with ridiculous rules and regs?

 

Coal mines didn't go out of business because they couldn't keep up with new standards. They went out of business because the people running the business decided it wasn't profitable enough to keep operating under the new standards in the same locations. If the government doesn't force companies to clean up their act they just don't do it. Even now with EPA regs and fines companies don't dispose of stuff properly. They either pay the fines or have an "accident" every so often.

 

The whole damn situation is corrupt. The companies are irresponsible and greedy. The government is completely corrupt and a puppet of the corporations. The citizens are so polarized that we can't even muster a united front against these SOBs. We're F'd! lol

The fact that you put quotes around free market speaks volumes, I fear. Note that this was a RECORD year for tourism on the gulf coast. Fishing numbers are a bit down from 2009 but about on par with 2005. The news reports are full of "surprising", "unexpected", etc..

 

We can't one hand accuse the media about misleading us about firearm companies portrayed as merchants of evil and believe them when the portray the oil companies as evil greedy bastards. Remember, those evil greedy bastards employ huge numbers of the "working class"

The fact that you put quotes around free market speaks volumes, I fear.

 

Insinuating? I'll forgo the snarky reply and instead clarify the quotes. They are there because some would say we have a free, capitalist, market now. I don't agree that we do, in my opinion the market is fixed. It also goes to the fact that a truly free market is probably a lofty unattainable ideal. Even if we were to reach that ideal, I'm not sure it would fix the issues I mentioned above.

 

 

We can't one hand accuse the media about misleading us about firearm companies portrayed as merchants of evil and believe them when the portray the oil companies as evil greedy bastards. Remember, those evil greedy bastards employ huge numbers of the "working class"

 

I don't know about you but I don't rely on the media for jack. So don't include me in the "we" when it comes to deciding what information to use when forming an opinion of a corporation. The fact that these companies employ huge numbers of the "working class" has little to do with cooking the books, cutting corners to increase profit, and general corporate malfeasance. Or does it? Is it OK for these companies to do that so long as they keep some Americans gainfully employed? Even if in the end it probably does more damage than good to the "working class" as a whole? If you are OK with that type of behaviour that's your prerogative, we can agree to disagree.

Insinuating? I'll forgo the snarky reply and instead clarify the quotes. They are there because some would say we have a free, capitalist, market now. I don't agree that we do, in my opinion the market is fixed. It also goes to the fact that a truly free market is probably a lofty unattainable ideal. Even if we were to reach that ideal, I'm not sure it would fix the issues I mentioned above.

 

If that is what you meant, then we are in agreement, free market is an idealized concept and frankly unreachable.

 

 

EDITED: I've removed the rest of my reply because frankly I'm done, I'll go talk about guns.