The lack of any clarity or acceptable methods is my suporting evidence that an all out ban was (and possibly still is) the goal. There were never supossed to be "exceptions"

The lack of any clarity or acceptable methods is my suporting evidence that an all out ban was (and possibly still is) the goal. There were never supossed to be "exceptions"

 

I would agree.. BUT with noting how fast they bowed down to Colt.. with the AG letter clarifying they were NOT substantially identical..

Since the law is unclear, I am going to use an unclear method to render my stock non-collapsable.

 

First, I will use the mechanism described in this thread to disable the collapse mechanism. The law states I cannot have a stock which collapses. This modification creates a stock which does not collapse. (Or perhaps better said, the stock may still collapse, but only with greater effort than that required to apply a new stock.)

 

Second, I will drill a tiny hole in one side of the stock (NOT into the buffer tube) and insert a chunk of roll pin that is machined to be around the same thickness as the stock. This modification will be cosmetic, but will help entertain those who care to look for it...

The lack of any clarity or acceptable methods is my suporting evidence that an all out ban was (and possibly still is) the goal. There were never supossed to be "exceptions"

 

This. While I prefer not to blind-pin, I counter-sink the holes and fill with JB-weld after i install the roll pin. in response to what you said earlier though Shane..the Majority of guys if they even BOTHER to look, are only going to looks as far as the stock not moving, they arent going to give a damn if it's blind-pinned, welded or anything else. I;m waiting for my ergo to come in sometime this week, then i have to figure out how to pin THAT..never had one in my hands before so it should be interesting. That one is going on the .300 Blk

I suppose my positions are formed by those that if they got called, its already an issue and is already sideways. A worst case scenario if you will. And thats what I plan around I guess. Good to know there are a lot of "good guys" on the blue line too. Cant wait to see the 7.62X35!!!

My opinion: The only reason to pin the stock is to make it NJ. If a LEO is checking out my buttstock to make sure it's NJ legal, I'd much prefer to have what is typically used and accepted as NJ legal. I'd prefer not explaining any sort of mechanical attribute while my rifle is under investigation.

My opinion: The only reason to pin the stock is to make it NJ. If a LEO is checking out my buttstock to make sure it's NJ legal, I'd much prefer to have what is typically used and accepted as NJ legal. I'd prefer not explaining any sort of mechanical attribute while my rifle is under investigation.

 

you are right.. and you think he is going to examine pins? how deep they go? what material they are? or do you think he is going to try to operate the stock open and close it.. I am pretty confident that the examination process will be.. "does this stock collapse.. hmm.. nope seems to be pinned open..."

I suppose my positions are formed by those that if they got called, its already an issue and is already sideways. A worst case scenario if you will. And thats what I plan around I guess. Good to know there are a lot of "good guys" on the blue line too. Cant wait to see the 7.62X35!!!

 

Stock and other small parts will be delivered tomorrow, and the lower will be assembled after i pin the stock. Surefire brake, and YHM wrench will be here friday or monday, at which time i'll assemble the upper, and then the "Zombie Special" (Well..Hog Special) will be ready to rock.. Finally building up the Matched ZEDU lower and upper i bought over a year ago.

That's what I figured. Thx

 

ETA:

My MOE stock is apparently "blind pinned"... I just didn't know it was called that as I usually see the term when talking about muzzle devices.

 

FWIW, it is impossible to determine if that pin is "blind" from this picture

Why even focus on the pin? I could swap the stock to a non pinned one in 2 minutes! The boiled down point is simply perception is the reality in this case IMHO.

 

thats quick, I can swap mine in about 1hr & 15min. (time to get to my PA house) -lol.

Do collapsable stocks have to be pinned in any particular position?

 

Do they have to be fully extended?

 

Can they be pinned "two clicks out"?

Do collapsable stocks have to be pinned in any particular position?

 

Do they have to be fully extended?

 

Can they be pinned "two clicks out"?

 

Any position you want (as long as the OAL of the rifle is more than 26")

IMO, regarding pinning a telescoping stock, it should be as long as it doesn't move by using your bare hands (adjustment handles, adjustable pins, etc), it is not telescoping. The law doesn't say if it needs to be permanent, or temporary, or how they need to be designed to acheive compliance.

 

In my mind, i'd hand the stock to the prosecutor and ask them to please "telecope" the stock to prove that it is telescoping. If their response is "well, we need to drill this out, and happer out remove this roll pin with a punch" you already won. Thats like getting charged with a fully automatic weapon because with a metal file and some time you can shave away parts of the SA FCG that could get it to fire more than 1 round per trigger pull.

Stock and other small parts will be delivered tomorrow, and the lower will be assembled after i pin the stock. Surefire brake, and YHM wrench will be here friday or monday, at which time i'll assemble the upper, and then the "Zombie Special" (Well..Hog Special) will be ready to rock.. Finally building up the Matched ZEDU lower and upper i bought over a year ago.

 

ETA...make that Monday..which means i wont get my stuff till tuesday, since i had it sent to work,,,damn holidays

IMO, regarding pinning a telescoping stock, it should be as long as it doesn't move by using your bare hands (adjustment handles, adjustable pins, etc), it is not telescoping. The law doesn't say if it needs to be permanent, or temporary, or how they need to be designed to acheive compliance.

 

In my mind, i'd hand the stock to the prosecutor and ask them to please "telecope" the stock to prove that it is telescoping. If their response is "well, we need to drill this out, and happer out remove this roll pin with a punch" you already won. Thats like getting charged with a fully automatic weapon because with a metal file and some time you can shave away parts of the SA FCG that could get it to fire more than 1 round per trigger pull.

 

this

This is my first post so please excuse the stupidity. If you can pin the stock at any position along the adjustable stock and it is leagal while it is pinned in that position. This is of course assumeing that the overal lenght is over 26". Then what differnece does it make if the stock is adjustable if at every length you fall within a legal overall gun length?

This is my first post so please excuse the stupidity. If you can pin the stock at any position along the adjustable stock and it is leagal while it is pinned in that position. This is of course assumeing that the overal lenght is over 26". Then what differnece does it make if the stock is adjustable if at every length you fall within a legal overall gun length?

 

NJ has a made an enormous effort to ban any type of weapon system that mimics those used in military or law enforcement... this attempt is made to specifically ban what NJ considers an "assault weapon"

 

things like flash hiders.. adjustable stocks.. are common elements of Mil and LEO weapons..

 

NJ has developed a list of weapons that are specifically banned by name..

 

it has then also decided that weapon systems that are substantially identical to weapons banned by name are also illegal..

 

the criteria for a weapon being substantially identical is the following

 

a semi automatic rifle with detachable mag.. is illegal if it has TWO or more of the following..

 

* pistol grip

* bayonet lug

* folding/telescoping stock

* grenade launcher

* threaded barrel OR flash hider

Just did mine, took a whole 5 mins, no drilling. good to go!

This may be a moot point to some, but it bears mentioning anyway. There is nothing in NJ State Statute that mentions anything regarding the "2 or more evil features." It gives a list of illegal firearms, followed by the ambiguous "substantially similar" clause. There was a case thrown out back in... 96? I believe due to the ambiguity of that clause. The attorney general then issued a charging guideline for law enforcement which was basically his interpretation of what is "substantially similar." This is where the "at least two of the following features" language comes from. The attorney general's guideline is exactly that. A guideline. It is not a law, as the attorney general does not have the power to legislate. It is not even mandatory that law enforcement follow it (unless that individual department mandates, via a S.O.P, that officers from that department follow the AG guidelines in regard to assault firearms. And even then the officer can only be punished administratively). Personally, as a law enforcement officer, I would never charge someone under this ridiculous statute (unless the offender is a complete ****off and I want to stick it to him). The reason why its a moot point, however, is because no FFL dealer in NJ wants to risk having his license suspended while he fights it in court, so none will sell a firearm that violates the "2 or more features" guideline. Its a shame that there isn't a dealer out there with deep pockets who is willing to put it to the test, because I think they would win. Down here in Cumberland County we had a case this Summer where a guy was charged under the assault weapon statute for having an AR clone with a collapsible stock. He was found not guilty and given his rifle back.

Actually I stand corrected, just went back and reviewed the case. The above subject was given his Bushmaster back with the stock removed. Not sure if this guy is bothering to fight to have the stock returned or not. If not, though, he should. As I said, NJ state statute does not explicitly outlaw collapsible stocks and, especially in the light of the fact that the subject was found not guilty of the charge, I'm not sure how the prosecutors office can get away with keeping it.

I cant hear a word your saying because I am totally stuck on this statement that you made

 

" Personally, as a law enforcement officer,I would never charge someone under this ridiculous statute (unless the offender is a complete ****off and I want to stick it to him)."

 

 

So what your telling me here is that you would use the authority of your position to do harm to an individual based on how you personally feel about them???

I cant hear a word your saying because I am totally stuck on this statement that you made

 

" Personally, as a law enforcement officer,I would never charge someone under this ridiculous statute (unless the offender is a complete ****off and I want to stick it to him)."

 

 

So what your telling me here is that you would use the authority of your position to do harm to an individual based on how you personally feel about them???

 

what he is likely saying is the opposite.. what he is probably saying is he tries to cut people a break.. he tries to not be a dbag.. but if he is involved in a situation where an individual is less than cooperative and causes issue.. then yes he presses the issue.. he is using his discretion as officers do every single day...

I appreciate you relaying the information of the case.. as it is HUGE for gun owners.. to have an actual case where someone had an AW per AG guidelines and WON is huge.. and VERY important to hear about... and I appreciate you relaying that info.. in slightly more detail..

Actually I stand corrected, just went back and reviewed the case. The above subject was given his Bushmaster back with the stock removed. Not sure if this guy is bothering to fight to have the stock returned or not. If not, though, he should. As I said, NJ state statute does not explicitly outlaw collapsible stocks and, especially in the light of the fact that the subject was found not guilty of the charge, I'm not sure how the prosecutors office can get away with keeping it.

 

I have a co-worker who had to have a Judge threaten an AP with a Contempt charge to get his guns back after he was cleared of a BS DV charge.

Vlad I understand what your saying, but we arent talking about a speeding ticket here. I just think its a dangerouse line of thinking. I am not against curb side justice. However, things are simply far different in law enforcement these days. I think its been pretty clear my support for LE. BUT I have personally seen a metric ton of the other side too. And I percieve a danger with this type of thinking. A slippery slope if you will. But this is really a topic that I dont think I could do justice on a forum so I think Ill leave it at that.

"I have a co-worker who had to have a Judge threaten an AP with a Contempt charge to get his guns back after he was cleared of a BS DV charge."

 

And its cases like this that cause me to have the overly cautious approach to everything firearm related in NJ, even something as simple as pinning a stock!

Vlad I understand what your saying, but we arent talking about a speeding ticket here. I just think its a dangerouse line of thinking. I am not against curb side justice. However, things are simply far different in law enforcement these days. I think its been pretty clear my support for LE. BUT I have personally seen a metric ton of the other side too. And I percieve a danger with this type of thinking. A slippery slope if you will. But this is really a topic that I dont think I could do justice on a forum so I think Ill leave it at that.

 

someone moves to NJ and has a non NJ compliant AR... (at his own fault) doesn't realize his muzzle device is a flash hider... thus illegal..

I do NOT like to see law applied unfairly..unevenly.. but I also don't see the world stopping by a cop cutting this individual a brake when he has lived decades of an otherwise lawful life..

brian aiken (sp?) for example... if you are caught you are caught.. you broke the law.. you pay the price.. but in the same breath if they had let him go that night... taken the mags.. called it a day.. I would not be crying myself to sleep..

I understand but I also see a danger where since said officer is cutting you a break, some think that makes it ok to berate you and treat you less than professionally which can easily lead to a personality conflict. So whats your choice? Take it or end up in the pokey? I also believe that old timer veteran officers dont seem to take things so personally reliasing that the stress of the situation brings out quirly behaviors in some people. The situation you describe would be old school curb side justice in my book, and something I have no problem with. But I have witnessed much of the other scenario and thus my concern.

I understand but I also see a danger where since said officer is cutting you a break, some think that makes it ok to berate you and treat you less than professionally which can easily lead to a personality conflict. So whats your choice? Take it or end up in the pokey? I also believe that old timer veteran officers dont seem to take things so personally reliasing that the stress of the situation brings out quirly behaviors in some people. The situation you describe would be old school curb side justice in my book, and something I have no problem with. But I have witnessed much of the other scenario and thus my concern.

 

I get your point COMPLETELY...

 

I have at least in one occasion been spoken down to.. disrespected.. and outright treated obnoxiously by a cop.. this law enforcement officer spoke to me as if I was his 12 year old child.. but at the end of the day I drove home with no ticket.. no summons.. no nothing.. a simple slap on the wrist.. and honestly.... I can appreciate how that is technically WRONG.. but I can also appreciate I would rather be humiliated for 10 minutes than have a ticket.. points.. increased insurance charges, and the same talk from my dad when I got home (was still living at home at the time on my dads insurance).. like I said.. in that instance.. ill take the demeaning 10 minutes of grief over the alternative.. even though I understand why it is "wrong".. lol

Right! and there in lies the danger and why I think that happens. The behaviour pattern can develop this way..... thius the difference between a wise LEO using curb side justuce and the other more unfortunate ways it can go.