New Comparison - Handgun "Stopping Power"

 

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866

 

QUOTE

 

"Conclusion

This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!"

I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!"

 

I may disagree with some of his methodology but I agree 100% with his conclusions.

interesting.... .38sp = to .45acp until accuracy is taken into account.

 

More proof that I am wrong on using 9mm ball.... need to get some good jhp for the Walther.

 

I think he is spot on, whatever you shoot it must hit in the right spot, placement trumps caliber which trumps capacity. It's the new Rock paper scissors

12 gauge for HD

410 gauge for CCW (when applicable)

 

winning

I think he is spot on, whatever you shoot it must hit in the right spot, placement trumps caliber which trumps capacity. It's the new Rock paper scissors

In a way. Remember that scissors>paper>rock>scissors>paper>rock. It's a continuing cycle. It doesn't work for placement>caliber>capacity.

12 gauge for HD

410 gauge for CCW (when applicable)

 

winning

 

Shotty and a Judge, who would have guessed you would come up with this combo..

 

 

Shotty and a Judge, who would have guessed you would come up with this combo..

 

 

Lol..I found myself shocked as well.

I don't see this as much as a surprise, at least his conclusion. People have been beating the caliber debate to death for years and years. I've been a believer of his conclusion, any bullet will kill with accurate shot placement, for the time I have been shooting.

12 gauge for HD

410 gauge for CCW (when applicable)

 

winning

 

You WILL change your spots after FOF training with Ant's boys...

12 gauge for HD

410 gauge for CCW (when applicable)

 

winning

 

Both with birdshot loads, right?

Both with birdshot loads, right?

 

yup

Anybody remember Black Talons? I bought the last boxes of 45 ACP and 9mm that I could find in Mercer County when it was announced that they were being pulled off the market. I stuck in the bottom of my ammo locker in the event of a worst case scenario (armaggedon, collapse of govt, etc). I just rediscovered them when was swapping out my Hi-Power loads. Loaded up a 13rd mag and the other mag w/ standard Cor-Bons. Anyone know if NJ passed some a** law banning the Talons? I've been out of the gun world for over a decade due to multiple jobs, family and no free time so I haven't been following latests developments.

Anybody remember Black Talons? I bought the last boxes of 45 ACP and 9mm that I could find in Mercer County when it was announced that they were being pulled off the market. I stuck in the bottom of my ammo locker in the event of a worst case scenario (armaggedon, collapse of govt, etc). I just rediscovered them when was swapping out my Hi-Power loads. Loaded up a 13rd mag and the other mag w/ standard Cor-Bons. Anyone know if NJ passed some a** law banning the Talons? I've been out of the gun world for over a decade due to multiple jobs, family and no free time so I haven't been following latests developments.

 

From what I understand, they're not illegal in themselves except that NJ Law pertaining to all hollow point ammo does apply. (Illegal to carry it, not to own it or use it at the range etc.) Hard to find yet not impossible to buy still. However, I myself wouldn't use it as a HD round since it could mean opening the door to additional law suits by the perp (or his surviving family etc.) for using a deadly round only intended for LEOs today. I'd rather chamber something that was more accepted as the norm and there's plenty of choices on the market. (I like Corbon DPX myself). Of course this is all just my opinion on the subject.

410 gauge for CCW (when applicable)

 

that is an excellent plan providing your reason for CCW is defense against snakes..

There are so many factors in what will and wont work in each situation, a "new" criminal may be scared off with just the sound of a .22 let alone getting hit, a criminal that may have been in fire fights before or on drugs may not be stopped by any sound and may not feel pain at their time of attack. At which point killing or physically disabling may be the only option. I believe a persons best option is whatever they can accurately and securely trust themselves to handle. If you can shoot someones eye out or hit vital parts like the throat at 7 yards with a .22 but shots are all over the place with another caliber then the .22 is right for you. Maybe even going with a .22 magnum to get better penetration, bottom line a .22 is better then nothing, but if you can move up to a .38 revolver or something bigger do it.

I have never been in a gun fight.. but I have been jumped/attacked.... the notion that you will be shooting someone over 20ft away might be reasonable in the home.. you hear a break in.. you go look.. someone rushes you.. you shoot.. sure.. but on the street.. an attacker is probably going to be in your face before you even know it is happening.. pointing a gun right at your chest.. or holding a knife at you.. hitting someone "in the throat" or "in a vital area" is IMO a poor defensive strategy... which is why the biggest caliber you can handle is the best... you want to make the biggest most nasty hole you can make.. in the largest area that houses the most goodies (center mass).. yeah.. there are a ton of nice blood pathways in the under arm area.. and a simple knife thrust there would be enough to stop most.. placing a hit there in the middle of an altercation.. kind of tough... you need to be able to control an attacker with one hand while drawing with another.. you need to be able to draw while on your back.. it would likely be a fight for your life in which physical conditioning and awareness will be JUST as important as your gun skills.. if you are weak.. and poorly trained.. expect to lose your own gun in the struggle.. and end up getting shot.. this is not the wild west in which you will have a 20 pace fair gun fight.. drawing your weapon will likely be a last resort right as the situation is occurring.. the first class we had when I started to learn knife fighting... the instructor said this class is not about winning a knife fight like you see in the movies.. you will likely get stabbed anyway.. you will likely be hurt.. winning.. is simply being able to live another day after being attacked.. and that really put it into perspective for me.. criminals on the street in a lot of cases don't care about jail.. or dying... so they are going to bring it to you in a life or death type attack..and when it happens.. it will likely be in your face...

that is an excellent plan providing your reason for CCW is defense against snakes..

 

410 buckshot, FOR THE WIN

reloads are 45 long colt, which is like a better 45acp. REALLY WINNING

 

You can stick with the Euro-Pellet sir, CHECK AND MATE

The purpose of a defensive handgun round is to cause Shock and Trauma, and stopping the threat as efficiently as possible. ..However, while to go to extremes, a 500 S&W Will CERTAINLY cause more Shock and trauma than say a .22, which is actually more effective in ACTUAL practice?? (and Glen, you stay out of this :-P ) Is the Girl with the .22, who can, even under stress, empty the magazine into the eye of an attacker at 20' more or less effective than the guy with the .500 who's somewhat afraid of it, and only shoots it twice a year, and MAY get a non-center-mass hit on an attacker???? In the end the BEST defensive firearm is the one which YOU can use to the best effect under stress. if that is a .45< great, if it's a 9mm or .38 revolver, Great too, if it's the proverbial "Little girl with the .22 Semi" that works as well. I remember going round and round years ago with a guy who kept insisting that 10mm was the ONL acceptable handgun round..only to find after literally weeks of arguing that he had never actually SHOT one. ;-/ there was a reason that way back when, the majority of PD;'s that carried .357 revolvers also carried .38Spl AMMO, and the FBI after pushing and in essence developing the 10mm round dropped down to .40 after a few years...

The purpose of a defensive handgun round is to cause Shock and Trauma, and stopping the threat as efficiently as possible. ..However, while to go to extremes, a 500 S&W Will CERTAINLY cause more Shock and trauma than say a .22, which is actually more effective in ACTUAL practice?? (and Glen, you stay out of this :-P ) Is the Girl with the .22, who can, even under stress, empty the magazine into the eye of an attacker at 20' more or less effective than the guy with the .500 who's somewhat afraid of it, and only shoots it twice a year, and MAY get a non-center-mass hit on an attacker???? In the end the BEST defensive firearm is the one which YOU can use to the best effect under stress. if that is a .45< great, if it's a 9mm or .38 revolver, Great too, if it's the proverbial "Little girl with the .22 Semi" that works as well. I remember going round and round years ago with a guy who kept insisting that 10mm was the ONL acceptable handgun round..only to find after literally weeks of arguing that he had never actually SHOT one. ;-/ there was a reason that way back when, the majority of PD;'s that carried .357 revolvers also carried .38Spl AMMO, and the FBI after pushing and in essence developing the 10mm round dropped down to .40 after a few years... All of the "power" in the world isnt going to do SQUAT unless you can deliver that power to the point on the target where it will do it's work most efficiently. Wrist-breakers tend not to do that.

The purpose of a defensive handgun round is to cause Shock and Trauma, and stopping the threat as efficiently as possible. ..However, while to go to extremes, a 500 S&W Will CERTAINLY cause more Shock and trauma than say a .22, which is actually more effective in ACTUAL practice?? (and Glen, you stay out of this :-P ) Is the Girl with the .22, who can, even under stress, empty the magazine into the eye of an attacker at 20' more or less effective than the guy with the .500 who's somewhat afraid of it, and only shoots it twice a year, and MAY get a non-center-mass hit on an attacker???? In the end the BEST defensive firearm is the one which YOU can use to the best effect under stress. if that is a .45< great, if it's a 9mm or .38 revolver, Great too, if it's the proverbial "Little girl with the .22 Semi" that works as well. I remember going round and round years ago with a guy who kept insisting that 10mm was the ONL acceptable handgun round..only to find after literally weeks of arguing that he had never actually SHOT one. ;-/ there was a reason that way back when, the majority of PD;'s that carried .357 revolvers also carried .38Spl AMMO, and the FBI after pushing and in essence developing the 10mm round dropped down to .40 after a few years...

 

while I totally agree in theory..

 

neither the 500 OR the 22 are better.. the best is the one in the middle.. that delivers the most manageable power.. anyone who is going to put enough time into the range to rely on a gun for protection.. even a female.. should be able to handle a 38 or 9.... which is IMO substantially better than a 22..

410 buckshot, FOR THE WIN

reloads are 45 long colt, which is like a better 45acp. REALLY WINNING

 

You can stick with the Euro-Pellet sir, CHECK AND MATE

 

so you start with 410.. and then reload the revolver to an actual stopping round?

 

good plan.. can you reload from your back while someone is smashing your face in after you shoot his friend? you are more than welcome to carry whatever makes you sleep well at night.. and NO I dont want to be shot with 410.. but seriously.. there are better choices out there..

while I totally agree in theory..

 

neither the 500 OR the 22 are better.. the best is the one in the middle.. that delivers the most manageable power.. anyone who is going to put enough time into the range to rely on a gun for protection.. even a female.. should be able to handle a 38 or 9.... which is IMO substantially better than a 22..

 

I agree completely..i just chose the two extremes for the example.....

so you start with 410.. and then reload the revolver to an actual stopping round?

 

good plan.. can you reload from your back while someone is smashing your face in after you shoot his friend? you are more than welcome to carry whatever makes you sleep well at night.. and NO I dont want to be shot with 410.. but seriously.. there are better choices out there..

 

I carry more than 1 gun, and since when is a revolver not enough? Sadly, your "youth opinion" needs to be rethought.

I carry more than 1 gun, and since when is a revolver not enough?

 

a revolver with reasonable load is plenty.. 410 out of a revolver? will it make someone's day real bad? sure.. will it stop any threat? I am not sure? I honestly question 410 out of a shotgun.. 410 out of a shotgun will definitely have some power.. but how much is lost onto that tiny barrel? but at the end of the day it is what you are comfortable with..

 

as far as it not being enough or not trusting it.. YOU are the one carrying multiple guns.. I carry one.. and it has yet to fail on me.. so for me.. ONE is enough...

You don't loose that much energy out of the judge's short barrel. It's 4 33 cal pellets weighing 85 grains a piece moving at 750 FPS. If that doesn't do it a follow up shot will. A double tap of that is very lovely. And my back-up the LCR.

a revolver with reasonable load is plenty.. 410 out of a revolver? will it make someone's day real bad? sure.. will it stop any threat? I am not sure? I honestly question 410 out of a shotgun.. 410 out of a shotgun will definitely have some power.. but how much is lost onto that tiny barrel? but at the end of the day it is what you are comfortable with..

 

as far as it not being enough or not trusting it.. YOU are the one carrying multiple guns.. I carry one.. and it has yet to fail on me.. so for me.. ONE is enough...

 

One is none, two is one.

Anybody remember Black Talons? I bought the last boxes of 45 ACP and 9mm that I could find in Mercer County when it was announced that they were being pulled off the market. I stuck in the bottom of my ammo locker in the event of a worst case scenario (armaggedon, collapse of govt, etc). I just rediscovered them when was swapping out my Hi-Power loads. Loaded up a 13rd mag and the other mag w/ standard Cor-Bons. Anyone know if NJ passed some a** law banning the Talons? I've been out of the gun world for over a decade due to multiple jobs, family and no free time so I haven't been following latests developments.

 

 

They are marketed as other names now. If you look, you will find them. They are selling at a damn good price too nowadays.

They are marketed as other names now. If you look, you will find them. They are selling at a damn good price too nowadays.

 

I believe it's "Ranger XT" now

I believe it's "Ranger XT" now

 

Courtesy of "Wikipedia"

 

"Current status

Winchester discontinued the Black Talon line completely in 2000. The “Ranger SXT” ammunition sold later by Winchester is very similar to the Black Talon though without the black Lubalox coating on the bullet. Among shooters, a running joke is that SXT stands for “Same eXact Thing", though the official branding is “Supreme eXpansion Technology”. However, there are differences in the anatomy of the bullets which become apparent when carefully examined side by side. The hollow point cavity dimensions and angles of the meplat were altered to enhance reliability of expansion, though the basic "reverse taper" design unique to the Black Talon was retained. This "reverse taper" refers to the bullet's jacket being thicker at the tip than toward the base, enhancing rigidity which allows the sharp petals to remain largely perpendicular to the wound path, unlike traditional designs where the expanding jacket petals would peel back almost completely behind the expanded lead mushroom. This difference is obvious after firing into ballistic gelatin.^[13] In 2007 Winchester updated their Ranger SXT line and renamed it Ranger T-Series. Besides further dimensional changes to the hollow point for reliable expansion, the trademark perpendicular petals were made longer yet more rounded at the tips to retain stiffness.

 

 

PDX1

 

In 2009 Winchester-Olin released a new hollow point bullet in its Supreme Elite line of handgun ammunition called the Bonded PDX1.^[14] It is similar to the Ranger SXT series and, therefore, the older Black Talon line in its structure, and is available in several calibers and loadings. The most obvious difference from the SXT is that the bonded design, meant to maintain structural integrity through difficult intermediate barriers like auto-glass, largely prevents the sharp petals from peeling away from the lead core and fully protruding into the wound track. The .40 S&W PDX1 cartridge is the primary service ammunition of the FBI.^[15] The PDX1 series is also available for purchase by civilian shooters. Further, there is no law that prohibits civilians from buying ammunition marked "Law Enforcement", which some of the Ranger line has printed on the box (as do other lines of ammunition)."

while I totally agree in theory..

 

neither the 500 OR the 22 are better.. the best is the one in the middle.. that delivers the most manageable power.. anyone who is going to put enough time into the range to rely on a gun for protection.. even a female.. should be able to handle a 38 or 9.... which is IMO substantially better than a 22..

+1