So what do you think? I was thinking something in the 36-50grain range in either poloymer tip or JHP type design.

 

Thinking the light weights will keep over travel to a minimum, also another concern is muzzle flash...nice to be able to see for the follow up shot if its on the dark side.

 

What do you think?

I'd think a soft point varmint type bullet.

yea thats what im thinking, just waiting to see if anyone has any reason why that would be a bad idea or what round i should go with. Leabing towards the 40 grain Fiocchi but not set on anything yet...

This one is interesting

 

I like the low muzzle flash..

in for some results as well. Was checking out ammo last night, but maybe i should finish the build off prior to spending more cash on ammo...

Will this leave your ears ringing (and your family) and lose situational awareness b/c rifle round is considerably louder than pistol or shotty? Especially in confined space. Or it won't matter b/c pistol and shotty will have the same effect even if they have lower db levels. *Not a thread-jack, just thinking out loud.

my .38 snub is as loud or louder then my saiga. My 9mm may be ever so slightly quieter.....

 

 

It is what it is, if i have to shoot at someone sound is the least of my worries

In my situation, my pistols will be #1 HD weapon but it would be nice to have some AR mags loaded with quality ammo JUST IN CASE!

If anything happens I'm throwing one of the pistols in my pocket as I grab the saiga, but I'm not gonna rely on them.

Hornandy 55gr TAP FPD has always seemed like a good choice. Shoots well out of my 14.5, has "Propellants that are engineered to protect your night vision by minimizing muzzle flash.", and has been recommended as a good choice for HD by a few different trainers. But if you had to shoot inside your home with an AR you will easily penetrate 2-3 walls worth of drywall regardless of ammo selection. It boils down to a personal compromise between using the best stopping round vs. the least over penatrating (and all options in-between).

 

Stated simply, the hard truth is that if over penetration is your primary concern - Don't miss.

 

Edited for clarity.

I really think people should stick with stuff proven to stop and/or kill other people and that starts at 55 grain. M193 has killed hundreds of thousands of people on the first shot.

 

Anything that is going to reliably stop somebody with a well placed shot will also shoot through every wall in most people's homes with the possible exception of an occasional now and then stop by a brick facade. If you hit somebody with an FMJ or HPBT/OTM round in 5.56, it will break into hundreds of pieces and maybe penetrate 18 inches. If it comes out the other side, it's lost a lot, but there are no guarantees with ammo actually designed to kill people. If you want to start shooting varmint rounds, etc., because they are unlikely to fully penetrate, well they are just as likely to miss as other ammo. And, a person may indeed give up after a grievous shallow wound from such a round. But it's far less like the round would actually hit blood pumping or bearing organs and vessels that would truly stop them quickly with no regard to their level of will or determination.

 

Everybody wants safety. But the primary purpose is to stop the threat. If you hobble yourself there, safety won't save anyone. Go around your house and figure out where it is safe and unsafe to shoot from various locations at areas where targets most likely would be. Note windows pointing at neighbor's windows, kids' room, etc. Know what is your target and what is beyond it.

 

There is no ammo that always hits the intended target, never goes through walls on a miss, achieves necessary penetration against a BG to provide reliable results, and never comes out other side of BG.

 

Hornady Zombie Max?

...There is no ammo that always hits the intended target, never goes through walls on a miss, achieves necessary penetration against a BG to provide reliable results, and never comes out other side of BG.

 

Ray Ray, the floor is open for your presentation on bird shot...

I like the fragmenting characteristics of 40gr V-max based rounds for 5.56 for an inside a dwelling scenario. Deer shot with this round looked like a mini grenade went off inside them and they seem to do really well at staying inside a dwelling from the tests I have seen.

Ray Ray, the floor is open for your presentation on bird shot...

 

Inside a house? Birdshot is fine. I use it. And this thread should end with

 

12 gauge

Hornandy 55gr TAP FPD has always seemed like a good choice. Shoots well out of my 14.5, has "Propellants that are engineered to protect your night vision by minimizing muzzle flash.", and has been recommended as a good choice for HD by a few different trainers. But if you had to shoot inside your home with an AR you will easily penetrate 2-3 walls worth of drywall regardless of ammo selection. It boils down to a personal compromise between using the best stopping round vs. the least over penatrating (and all options in-between).

 

Stated simply, the hard truth is that if over penetration is your primary concern - Don't miss.

 

Edited for clarity.

 

This is what i have loaded in 2 mags ready to go.

I've done a fair amount of reading on this trying to get a sound answer.

 

Basically, from the science types that try to figure this stuff out, and the answer is that pretty much everything with a .223 is a compromise. The two things you don't want are a very thin walled varmint hollow point, or very thin varmint round with a ballistic tip. At close range they both fragment severely and not into very large chunks, and they do so at < 8" of penetration. They largely seem to be following the FBI guideline of 12" of penetration. Except they don't seem to apply that to larger calibers.

 

On the top of their list for effective up close and far away were the following.

 

1) Heavy hollow point match bullets - they maintain more energy farther out, and at longer ranges you tend to get at least 2 decent sized chunks creating a permanent wound cavity. One form the lead, and one ormore from the jacket. Up close, You tend to get similar performance although it's usually just a portion of the lead part and a portion of the jacket, usually the base.

 

2) Heavier bonded soft points. They do most of their damage form expansion and tend to stay in one piece. They tend to fragment into 2 or more larger chunks up close and fast, and at longer ranges they simply expand and create a decent sized wound channel. They come wit the caveat that the soft point can cause the feed ramps to foul and cuase feeding issues without frequent maintenance. (I think this might be a full auto with a carbine gas system and recoil buffer issue. I've been testing out some JSP loads and I'm 500 rounds in on a midlength with rifle buffer, and I'm not even seeing lead on the feed ramps, much less a build up that would cause fouling.)

 

3) 100% gilding metal varmint rounds. The projectiles produce pretty awesome results. Up close they tent to fragment into the base and however many petals they were skived for (producing 3 or more permanent wound channels), and at range they tend to simply expand well and prod usce a single good wound channel. THe caveat on this one is that they are expensive, and they are light for size, which means you don't get as much energy down range, or as much resistence to wind drift as the above two options.

 

IMO, what research that has been done has somewhat fuzzy results that's not entirely to be trusted for several reasons. Just a couple are that they were all done to recommend generic bullet types, but were done with a limited selection of projectiles form which they expanded the conclusions to fairly wide product categories. The bonded soft point and gilding metal conclusions are probably solid because the offerings are so limited that it appears they would have had to represent most of the available offerings or tack down something that isn't sold to the general public or marketed anywhere. THe hollow tip match conclusion and vamrint conclusion disregard a LOT of bullets on the market, some with markedly different construction from others.

 

 

Inside a house? Birdshot is fine. I use it. And this thread should end with

 

12 gauge

 

+1

 

A rifle would not be my choice for HD. Maybe a .45 carbine or something. Just the sound of a shotty will make most people crap their pants.

+1

 

A rifle would not be my choice for HD. Maybe a .45 carbine or something. Just the sound of a shotty will make most people crap their pants.

 

So would the sound of making just about any firearm ready, it is a rather distinct sound, let alone actually firing it.

For some good reading on this topic check out http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223

Racking an AK makes its own very intimidating sound

 

 

This will be at <25 yards. So I'm willing to bet I'll get 10 inches plus with any load greater then 40 grain. but then again I'm completely talking out of my a** and have no real facts to back that up

Racking an AK makes its own very intimidating sound

 

 

This will be at <25 yards. So I'm willing to bet I'll get 10 inches plus with any load greater then 40 grain. but then again I'm completely talking out of my a** and have no real facts to back that up

 

Just about any rifle load will get you the penetration required. You want that thing to fragment though, causing minimal damage once it goes through the BG and the next wall.

exactly my point Jon

 

I think I'll have to get some phone books or something to try out some different rounds.

Hornady Zombie Max?

 

I was gonna say it first lol

actually looks like it would work reasonably well

 

funny thing is they are just v-max, and according to hornady the zombie package is cheaper...

Yeah pretty sure the pistol ammo is Critical Defense with green instead of red tips.

 

More ammo stuff:

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-(Adpat

 

I want some Winchester Ranger now!

Will this leave your ears ringing (and your family) and lose situational awareness b/c rifle round is considerably louder than pistol or shotty? Especially in confined space. Or it won't matter b/c pistol and shotty will have the same effect even if they have lower db levels. *Not a thread-jack, just thinking out loud.

 

The fact is you probably won't hear anything as auditory exclusion in this type of situation is a fact.

 

Several years ago a few LE agencies did penetration tests with 223/5.56 vs 9 mm out of a MP5 in building materials. The 223 pentrated less than the 9 mm from the MP5. SP or HP penetrated less of course. Hatcher gives all the reasons when he tried a 44 mag and 30-06 back in the 50s (30-06 penetrated less).

I like 75 gr TAP. Even with the heavier bullet, most of what I found on the subject seemed to indicate that just about all .223 rounds [AP excluded of course] seem to break up & lose energy more quick than buck shot & handgun ammo. I've also had a chance to shoot it at night & whatever propelant they use seems to burn up pretty well before exiting my barrel, as the flash was not really a problem.

good to know zell, what barrel legnth were you using?