Greetings,

 

I have an idea for a gun part. And yes, this part would be specific for Ban States!!!! I've never done anything like this before and could use some direction.

 

I've found a metal fabricator to make the metal component, but I need to find a polymer manufacturer for the, yup you guessed it, the polymer component.

 

Any ideas, or recommendations on how/where to start? I'm guessing I would need to make a prototype from some kind of mold?

 

Thanks,

Ken

I may be able to help as well, I'm a fabricator. But we dont play with plastics

Does it have to be made in the U.S.? I have a friend who deals with Chinese factories all the time...they make a lot of polymer and resin stuff over there.

You have a few options depending on size, complexity, polymer type, and quantity. For small quantities/complex parts, you can find a small machine shop that can cut plastic if you provide a drawing or CAD model. Your other option is having a prototype mold made. The only problem with that option is they typically require a minimum order quantity or dollar amount. Without knowing any more details about the parts, that's about the best I can give you at the moment.

Does it have to be made in the U.S.? I have a friend who deals with Chinese factories all the time...they make a lot of polymer and resin stuff over there.

 

I would vastly prefer the item to be made in the U.S. Yeah, I want the work to go to American companies / workers, but also, I firmly believe it is a big selling attribute in the gun community. 2 things I've noticed that do well in the gun parts world. 1. American made 2. Meets mil-spec.

I may be able to help as well, I'm a fabricator. But we dont play with plastics

 

PM sent

I'm guessing I would need to make a prototype from some kind of mold?

 

 

 

Your best bet is to just mill out what you need from a block of the material you want to use. If nothing else make it out of Delrin to model what you want. Injection molds usually start at 10k and go to the moon from there.

 

 

Your best bet is to just mill out what you need from a block of the material you want to use. If nothing else make it out of Delrin to model what you want. Injection molds usually start at 10k and go to the moon from there.

 

Long-life molds, yes, but prototype molds are much cheaper. You can usually get about 100 parts for about $3k in my experience. They have larger tolerances, but I deal in the .001" realm, not sure what you're looking at.

Long-life molds, yes, but prototype molds are much cheaper. You can usually get about 100 parts for about $3k in my experience. They have larger tolerances, but I deal in the .001" realm, not sure what you're looking at.

 

We get molds made for our small items and the runs are always at least 100,000 pieces so that's where i'm coming from.

 

If he could get a solidworks drawing of the item, I'm sure someone will run out some pieces on a rapid prototyper fairly cheap. I have a Dimension SST1200 machine in my lab but the disk on computer crashed and I've not gotten around to reloading it all yet or I could run off a piece.

Greetings all,

 

Just want to say thanks for all the input so far.

 

Your best bet is to just mill out what you need from a block of the material you want to use. If nothing else make it out of Delrin to model what you want. Injection molds usually start at 10k and go to the moon from there.

 

Would you say Delrin is a tough, yet easy plastic to work up a prototype? I just called Interstate Plastics and they directed me to use UHMW? Any thoughts on this. My one gripe, from what the gent told me, is that the UHMV would come in white, since the piece I want is relatively small.

 

Long-life molds, yes, but prototype molds are much cheaper. You can usually get about 100 parts for about $3k in my experience. They have larger tolerances, but I deal in the .001" realm, not sure what you're looking at.

 

I'm guessing my tolerance range would be in the .01" range.

 

We get molds made for our small items and the runs are always at least 100,000 pieces so that's where i'm coming from.

 

If he could get a solidworks drawing of the item, I'm sure someone will run out some pieces on a rapid prototyper fairly cheap. I have a Dimension SST1200 machine in my lab but the disk on computer crashed and I've not gotten around to reloading it all yet or I could run off a piece.

 

What is a "solidworks drawing"? Any recommendations on where to go to get the rapid prototyper thing going?

Greetings all,

 

Just want to say thanks for all the input so far.

 

 

 

Would you say Delrin is a tough, yet easy plastic to work up a prototype? I just called Interstate Plastics and they directed me to use UHMW? Any thoughts on this. My one gripe, from what the gent told me, is that the UHMV would come in white, since the piece I want is relatively small.

 

 

 

I'm guessing my tolerance range would be in the .01" range.

 

 

 

What is a "solidworks drawing"? Any recommendations on where to go to get the rapid prototyper thing going?

 

Delrin (generic: Acetyl Homopolymer) is definitely a tough plastic. You can even get it glass-filled to make it even tougher. Tolerances of .01" are not a problem usually for rapid prototyping, I've even gone down to .005". From the sound of it you need someone with an engineering background to help you out with the more detailed parts of design.

 

Solidworks (among others) is a 3D modeling program that you can create a 3d model of your part and then create dimensioned drawings from to have parts produced. I would suggest trying to find a fabricator with engineering capabilities to help you. Depending on the complexity of your part(s), it may be a simple task to design and engineer it, or it could be fairly in-depth to properly tolerance it and ensure proper function. If you'd like, you can PM me for some suggestions, though I'm not entirely sure how they work with individuals trying to have parts designed/fabricated as I've only dealt with them through my job. I'd offer to help you with the engineering, but unfortunately, given that all of my modeling capabilities are through my job, I can't.

Would you say Delrin is a tough, yet easy plastic to work up a prototype?

Yes. It's pretty tough, it's abrasion and corrosion resistant but is very easy to cut/mill where as UHMW not so much. It really depends on what it's supposed to be doing. You may need something much harder or softer, less or more compressible...it's really hard to say without knowing your application. I can tell you that we use Delin in many applications.

 

Here's something to look at:

 

 

 

I'm guessing my tolerance range would be in the .01" range.

 

Easy enough.

 

What is a "solidworks drawing"? Any recommendations on where to go to get the rapid prototyper thing going?

 

Solidworks is a 3d modeling program. Think Autocad 3d but better. I can barely use it, but I've never had any training.

 

If you can get a 3d drawing of it, I'm sure you can find someone who can make it on a prototype machine. Those machines are becoming much more common.

compujas and Malsua,

 

Thank you both for your info. I've looked into the Solidworks software and it's about $4K for their standard package. Pricey.

 

Any recommendations on finding an engineer? Again, this whole thing is a learning process and I'm starting from square zero.

 

Any forums that you could direct me to that would be relevent?

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

 

Long-life molds, yes, but prototype molds are much cheaper. You can usually get about 100 parts for about $3k in my experience. They have larger tolerances, but I deal in the .001" realm, not sure what you're looking at.

 

Did not know that, thanks for the info. My info is a little dated, but molds and plates were always in the 10s of thousands in my experience. I wouldn't have considered that.

compujas and Malsua,

 

Thank you both for your info. I've looked into the Solidworks software and it's about $4K for their standard package. Pricey.

 

Any recommendations on finding an engineer? Again, this whole thing is a learning process and I'm starting from square zero.

 

Any forums that you could direct me to that would be relevent?

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

Yes, purchasing a Solidworks package doesn't make much sense for you. Your best bet would be to link up with an engineer/fabricator to help you with the details of the design and prototyping. If you'd like to PM me I can give you some suggestions for contacts in NJ that I've personally used at work. I have no ties (financial or otherwise) to them, but can only recommend them based on my having dealt with them. Aside from that, I can do some google searches to find rapid prototypers and rapid molders that are strictly fabrication shops. As far as forums, I'm not really aware of any that have people that offer their services, it's usually a word of mouth type of thing from my experience.

 

 

Did not know that, thanks for the info. My info is a little dated, but molds and plates were always in the 10s of thousands in my experience. I wouldn't have considered that.

 

Yeah, regular molds are normally hardened steel that are difficult to machine, but will last for MANY parts. They can also do aluminum molds that are far cheaper to machine, but also don't last as long or hold tolerances as well, but they're obviously great for prototyping. Like anything else, it's all a tradeoff.

If you need Engineering assistance, PM me. I am a student, but I know my way around the manufacturing world.

compujas and Malsua,

 

Thank you both for your info. I've looked into the Solidworks software and it's about $4K for their standard package. Pricey.

 

Any recommendations on finding an engineer? Again, this whole thing is a learning process and I'm starting from square zero.

 

Any forums that you could direct me to that would be relevent?

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

We had a guy doing our drawings for us on a contractual basis. We stopped that work in Jan 2010, but I know he's local to north Jersey and maybe you could meet with him. I haven't emailed him in 2 years but he certainly did good drawings, we're just not making prototypes any longer so we don't use him any more.(or at least my department isn't)

 

If you want his email and details PM me.

PM sent

Again, thank you to everyone providing info in this thread. I'm a total newbie to the entrepreneurial thing and am very excited about making a product in an industry where my passion runs very high.

 

Ken

Since I this topic came up, I fired up the Dimension SST1200 and ran off a test piece. The machine hasn't run in over a year. This is a built in object in the firmware that you can print from the menu of the machine. I can't print anything else yet, but I've contacted the vendor for new software.

 

Anyway, this is what this little bottle and lid look like.

 

It's fresh out of the machine. It took 45 minutes to make this. The support material is still stuck to the tray in the first picture.

 

 

Here I've pried it up to show you what the support material looks like.

 

 

I cracked the support off. Usually it has to go in bath to dissolve the support but you can just pop it off on the test piece.

 

And it screws together

Malsua,

 

Is that something that was "milled", for lack of a better term, or molded? I've been looking at home CNC and injection molding machines, but am not sure if this is the way to go. I'm guessing this would allow for some decent prototyping, but probably not ideal for mass production?

Malsua,

 

Is that something that was "milled", for lack of a better term, or molded? I've been looking at home CNC and injection molding machines, but am not sure if this is the way to go. I'm guessing this would allow for some decent prototyping, but probably not ideal for mass production?

 

That was printed . It's prototyping exclusively. You can make a model of the part in Solidworks, print it, test it for fit and aesthetics, and if it's wrong, adjust it and print another one in hours instead of days or weeks.

 

Here's a video of the same machine building a bearing.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55-orzbxF1g

Malsua,

 

Very interesting info. Does the prototyping machine use a specific plastic to "print", or can it be anything? In other words, could you use Delrin, PVC, etc? Or, is it a specific type of plastic? Would you have any idea how much it would cost to do a CAD type drawing (my terminology may be off here, but a 3D type drawing through Solidworks) of the unit and then run a "print"?

I have seen some of the things that machine can make, still amazes me every time I see it do it's thing.

Just an overall update....

 

I've checked w/ the NJSP and s/w a Sgt. Ross. Sgt. Ross seemed like a great guy and, though he suggested contacting a lawyer just to be sure, we seemed to be on the same page that the "part" would be NJ legal.

 

Right now, I'm somewhere between buying a 12" x 24" x 2.5" block of Delrin (rough cost is $275 for the Delrin), and trying to Dremil the piece to what I'm looking for. I consider myself a decent tinkerer, but I think if I do the home Dremil job, the "part" is going to wind up being something less desirable as a prototype, vs. hiring someone to do a CAD drawing and having it "printed" in a rig, something akin to what Malsua is using. The costs are going to add up quick.

 

The "part" is going to have a metal component and a plastic one, actually at least 3 plastic parts. I'm trying not to be too descriptive of the "part" as I'm fearful of someone stealing the idea. I'm looking into patents and what not as well.

 

I've also started researching home CNC machines and injection molding machines. I have some research to do on this, as ultimately, I want a quality product to be made, and while yes, the equipment can be purchased, it's another thing entirely to get the skill to actually use the machines. Again, costs are going to add up quick.

 

My next step is to do some $ analysis, once I get some estimates on R&D & parts production.

 

Yes folks, you are watching the evolution of a man who has an idea and is trying to make that idea come to life, build a business from it, and ultimately, get involved in an industry where my passion lies. It should be an interesting ride!!!

Malsua,

 

Very interesting info. Does the prototyping machine use a specific plastic to "print", or can it be anything? In other words, could you use Delrin, PVC, etc? Or, is it a specific type of plastic? Would you have any idea how much it would cost to do a CAD type drawing (my terminology may be off here, but a 3D type drawing through Solidworks) of the unit and then run a "print"?

 

It's ABS plastic. My machine is older and uses a weaker material than what you'd get if you bought the same machine today. The ABS is pretty strong though. As far as costs go, it's hard to say without knowing what you're making. I've never priced out this stuff on a per piece basis because we did a flat contract for the drawings, built the parts in house then sent the final drawings off to the mold maker.

 

If you get a drawing, you can shop it around to different places...someone will make it for you. I can make it if my machine is up by then.

 

For your first attempts, buy the cheapest material you can. You're going to screw it up somehow. This is not a reflection on you, it's a reflection from a guy that's been around machine tools and prototypes for 25+ years. The first piece almost always ends up on the shelf as an example of what not to do. Hell, make the first piece out of balsa wood or even wax, then when you start working with your good material, you'll have some experience.

i may be able to help you too, i sent a pm

i may be able to help you too, i sent a pm

 

PM sent back

It's ABS plastic. My machine is older and uses a weaker material than what you'd get if you bought the same machine today. The ABS is pretty strong though. As far as costs go, it's hard to say without knowing what you're making. I've never priced out this stuff on a per piece basis because we did a flat contract for the drawings, built the parts in house then sent the final drawings off to the mold maker.

 

If you get a drawing, you can shop it around to different places...someone will make it for you. I can make it if my machine is up by then.

 

For your first attempts, buy the cheapest material you can. You're going to screw it up somehow. This is not a reflection on you, it's a reflection from a guy that's been around machine tools and prototypes for 25+ years. The first piece almost always ends up on the shelf as an example of what not to do. Hell, make the first piece out of balsa wood or even wax, then when you start working with your good material, you'll have some experience.

 

Malsua, as always, thanks for your help!!! This weekend I'm going to do some photoshop playing to really try to get to visualize what this is going to look like. Also, will be on the hunt for balsa wood and/or sculpy or something similar to start making prototypes. I'm sure there will be many revisions before it's "right".

 

Thanks again,

Ken

I finally got my machine working this week. I ran this off last night. The drawing was a freebie on the net so the tool paths were poorly done causing that fuzzy look by the hammer and by the muzzle.