With the development of the 10mm having come up, now seems like a good time to offer up this link for anyone who's never had the chance to read it: Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness by FBI Special Agent Urey W. Patrick

 

Thanks so much! Quite an interesting read!

 

So after reading a 16 page Pdf from Quantico, I (and Col. Jeff Cooper) have been proven mostly correct in that "bigger is better" and penetration is the key. And that hollow point bullets can fill-up with window glass, clothing and any number of other items that will cause them to FAIL to expand, therefore making the reliance upon expansion very dangerous to the LEO (I'm paraphrasing, but right on the mark).

 

Now all we have to do is pull-out our old .45 LC Peacemakers and put some 250 grain flat point (wide) bullets in them and pump the Bad Guys full of hot lead like back in the "old days". YEEEHAAAW!

[sarcasm]Now if only ammunition technology had changed in the 23 years since that report was written... or the 28 years since the passing of Elmer Keith...[/sarcasm]

[sarcasm]Now if only ammunition technology had changed in the 23 years since that report was written... or the 28 years since the passing of Elmer Keith...[/sarcasm]

Actually it hasn't really changed much at all. Neither has the human body. Granted, some of the newer generation hollow points have slightly better expansion (under ideal circumstances shooting into exposed ballistic gelatin), but a big heavy slug still penetrates to the vitals better. If TECHNOLOGY is all we needed to drop the Bad Guys by making newer bullets, how come most of our Special Forces, SEALS, Rangers, etc. switched back to the .45? And why aren't big game hunters using the 5.56mm instead of English Double Rifles with .500 Nitro Express slugs that weigh almost two ounces?

 

The sarcasm only proves to show a sort of unwillingness to accept reality. Just because something was written when you might have been in swaddling clothes doesn't necessarily make it automatically wrong. Today's 9mm hollow point bullets are made of the same materials as today's .45 ACP hollow point bullets, so the argument of newer materials is very moot, since the material themselves are somewhat universally available in all calibers. Therefore, at the end of the day, all we're left with, given similar bullet desgns employing the latest technological breakthroughs, is "BIGGER IS BETTER"!

Just because something was written when you might have been in swaddling clothes doesn't necessarily make it automatically wrong.

And it's comments like that show how ignorant many of your statements are.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that a modern .45 hollow point is a viable round. But, simply dismissing modern 9mm because it doesn't fit into your narrow definition of bigger is better shows YOUR immaturity, not mine. We'll just agree to disagree.

but a big heavy slug still penetrates to the vitals better.

 

If that is your only consideration, why not just carry a .50 SW on you? No? You mean there might be more considerations? Gosh who knew.

If TECHNOLOGY is all we needed to drop the Bad Guys by making newer bullets, how come most of our Special Forces, SEALS, Rangers, etc. switched back to the .45?

 

US Military is not permitted to use modern expanding ammo.

US Military is not permitted to use modern expanding ammo.

Neither are NJ 's Retired LEO's....

And it's comments like that show how ignorant many of your statements are.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that a modern .45 hollow point is a viable round. But, simply dismissing modern 9mm because it doesn't fit into your narrow definition of bigger is better shows YOUR immaturity, not mine. We'll just agree to disagree.

 

This is fine by me! This argument (9 vs. .45) started long before computers existed, and hopefully will continue long past we're all long dead (meaning no one should take our guns away!).

If that is your only consideration, why not just carry a .50 SW on you? No? You mean there might be more considerations? Gosh who knew.

 

I LOVE sarcasm, and I can dish it out as well as take it:

 

Thanks for the idea! I betcha it would create a sufficient wound channel even IF I powered it down to a .50 Special! OH! WAIT! You mean somebody already did? Yes friends it's even commercially available! 440 grains (that's a one ounce 12 ga. shotgun slug equiv. for those of you in the PR of NJ) of pure kick-A$$ in a solid lead 1/2" wide flat point gas-check (Keith Style) bullet traveling at 1,100 FPS with an astonishing 1,200 Foot-pounds of energy (Oh Boy--here comes the hydrostatic SHOCK!).

 

A whole new meaning to the phrase, "Feel lucky Punk?" And I'll take mine in the 4" tube with that pretty survival case good for Alaska travel. Where's that saddlemaker--I need some custom gun leather!

 

O-K, sarcasm switch OFF!

 

Not trying to start a WAR, just have some fun. No harm intended! In all seriousness though, if it was up to me and I had my way every Cop would be given the chance at demonstrating proficiency with the largest caliber gun(s) that they felt they could handle. The idea that Cops toss magazines into the air and throw them at each other upon hearing an Officer running-out of bullets in the middle of a gun fight is crazy! Crazier still is the requirement that all of the Police bullets have to be interchangeable. This thought process breeds mediocrity instead of giving those Cops that have demonstrated a willingness to "learn the Gun" as it were, an "edge".

 

One Cop dead due to the Perp absorbing lethal rounds and not dying fast enough is one too many dead Cops IMHO!

Just to throw in another interesting link before the discussion breaks down too badly, here's a pretty cool site where winchester lets you compare gel-testing results for various caliber offerings of their Ranger ammunition:

 

 

EDIT: Can't get it working right as just a clickable link. URL is winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf, but with www. in front

Smokin, if Im tracking your position corecctly that caliber trumps design, Im hear to tell you that your wrong. And this isnt based on shooting goo or data from a testor that got tons of free ammo from the vendor that convieniently came out best in their studies. Its based on compiling data of actual shootings. For example, going from memory so dont quote this data as gospel but you will get the point, certain brands of 9mm and 45 were in the low to mid 60% effectiveness at stoping the bad guy. Good designs were in the mid to high 80's. So one could easily see that you would be FAR better off with a good 9mm over a bad 45. So in other words given the choice I would take a 9 loaded with winny ranger ammo over a 45 loaded with ball ammo any day of the week!

Neither are NJ 's Retired LEO's....

 

Ok, and that has what bearing on this conversation? You inferred that the US Military used .45s because they are better, and I pointed out that they do not have the ability to use modern hollow points in 9mm. If they did, I'd be pretty sure those special forces units would stick with 9mm. When you're talking about ball ammo, yes... bigger is better.

Smokin, if Im tracking your position corecctly that caliber trumps design, Im hear to tell you that your wrong. And this isnt based on shooting goo or data from a testor that got tons of free ammo from the vendor that convieniently came out best in their studies. Its based on compiling data of actual shootings. For example, going from memory so dont quote this data as gospel but you will get the point, certain brands of 9mm and 45 were in the low to mid 60% effectiveness at stoping the bad guy. Good designs were in the mid to high 80's. So one could easily see that you would be FAR better off with a good 9mm over a bad 45. So in other words given the choice I would take a 9 loaded with winny ranger ammo over a 45 loaded with ball ammo any day of the week!

 

We're sorta both on the same team here. I'm not saying caliber trumps design. I'm saying given everything else being equal--including the availablity of well-made .45 hollow points of the same design as those 9mm ones that weigh half as much, I'll take the heavier slug with more mass for deeper penetration. And the HP cavity of the .45 may be larger than that of the 9mm, with the resultant tissue damage being increased over that of both the .45 ball ammo and the 9mm HP of the same make. So I guess you could quote me as "Heavier is Better", lol!

Gotcha. Its an interesting discussion that in my mind boils down to which is a better plan? A slightly better effectiveness vs more chances to make a vital hit. And for me the consideration is expanded out to which pistol type I shoot better. I believe Im more likely to make effective hits with the lower capacity of the 1911 than the higher capacity of a doublestack 9 because I shoot a 1911 much better. But if I found a 9 that I shot equally as well, I might side with capacity. To me shot placement is key as has been said before. But a pistol is really just the tool to fight my way to my rifle

Gotcha. Its an interesting discussion that in my mind boils down to which is a better plan? A slightly better effectiveness vs more chances to make a vital hit. And for me the consideration is expanded out to which pistol type I shoot better. I believe Im more likely to make effective hits with the lower capacity of the 1911 than the higher capacity of a doublestack 9 because I shoot a 1911 much better. But if I found a 9 that I shot equally as well, I might side with capacity. To me shot placement is key as has been said before. But a pistol is really just the tool to fight my way to my rifle

 

You need a 2011 in 9mm.

I wonder how 9mm loaded to major specs would do.

 

Yes shane, you need to build a 2011 9mm, with 170mm big sticks. Ultimate SHTF handgun? hehehe

I wonder how 9mm loaded to major specs would do.

 

Yes shane, you need to build a 2011 9mm, with 170mm big sticks. Ultimate SHTF handgun? hehehe

 

And load em up to major. 31 rounds of 115gr at 1500fps ftw.

Gotcha. Its an interesting discussion that in my mind boils down to which is a better plan? A slightly better effectiveness vs more chances to make a vital hit. And for me the consideration is expanded out to which pistol type I shoot better. I believe Im more likely to make effective hits with the lower capacity of the 1911 than the higher capacity of a doublestack 9 because I shoot a 1911 much better. But if I found a 9 that I shot equally as well, I might side with capacity. To me shot placement is key as has been said before. But a pistol is really just the tool to fight my way to my rifle

 

Sounds like another "Cooperism", lol! We are indeed birds of a feather, for I just adore the 1911's natural pointability, single-action trigger and safeties as they are all second-nature to me.

 

Here's an interesting compromise: A Para-Ordanance P-16 .40 Short & Weak double-stack with magazine floor extensions (ya, I KNOW, NOT in NJ!) that would hold 18 in the mag +1 in the tube, cocked & locked.

 

Or the same Company's P-14 .45 ACP with some magazine work so it hold 16 +1 in the tube. These great double-stacks never seem to get mentioned at all in the 9 vs. .45 dramas as in this thread. The argument always goes to magazine capacity. Well the Para's take away that factor, and you're left with a superior handling, customizable Hi-Cap .45 or .40!

 

I have a P-16 laying around somewhere. I have to get it back to the Gunsmith for some sear work.

 

Take care!

Hehe been there have that in the form of an STI. 15 rnds of 45 goodness. Maks and Jon, dont laugh, I though of building up a 9X25 Dillon for the f of it I also like the 9X23 too!

9X25 data.

 

115gr FMJ Winchester Fed 215 15.1gr VV N110 1.268 1547 fps

This is all nonsense, and the main reason why i don't use a pistol as a primary HD or CCW gun. 12 gauge for HD, 410 gauge for CCW.

How do you like it Shane?

 

 

Looks pretty Maks! Now all I need is to take off the dots and install some iron sights (with trijicon) and I'm all set, lol!

Hehe been there have that in the form of an STI. 15 rnds of 45 goodness. Maks and Jon, dont laugh, I though of building up a 9X25 Dillon for the f of it I also like the 9X23 too!

fnh fnp 45, 15 rounds 45, light, and you can rock cocked and locked...