This is huge economic news for our area. The entire Sunoco corporation being sold for over $5billion

 

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-04-30/energy-transfer-partners-to-buy-sunoco-in-5-dot-3-bln-transaction

Interesting.

looks like there may be natural gas filling stations on the way to me.

I wonder if this is the reason all Sunoco stations in this area are undergoing major renovations.

Hm. Interesting. I hope the quality of their gas doesn't suffer. I've been filling up at Quenzel's Sunoco on Rt. 45 mostly nowadays, since I found out that I get a consistent 16-18MPG with their gas, versus 14-15 with Wawa gas.

Wawa gas sucks.. It has a high ethanol content.. Every time i test fuel and have high levels of ethanol over 10% ends up being wawa gas..

 

sunoco and shell high test have all tested just under 10% sometimes around 8%.

Wawa gas sucks.. It has a high ethanol content.. Every time i test fuel and have high levels of ethanol over 10% ends up being wawa gas..

 

sunoco and shell high test have all tested just under 10% sometimes around 8%.

 

I figured that that was the issue. Ethanol produces less power than gasoline, worthless additive.

 

Do you know of any gas stations that still sell straight gasoline, with no ethanol blended in?

I figured that that was the issue. Ethanol produces less power than gasoline, worthless additive.

 

Do you know of any gas stations that still sell straight gasoline, with no ethanol blended in?

 

Acutally Ethanol produces more power, but less MPG for a car. I use 25% E85 75% gas when i go to the track, which boosts your power by a bit or a lot depending on your tune and modifications to the car and other stuff. Its safer then leaded race gas.

I figured that that was the issue. Ethanol produces less power than gasoline, worthless additive.

 

Do you know of any gas stations that still sell straight gasoline, with no ethanol blended in?

 

yes in NY and Maryland..

 

http://pure-gas.org/

Acutally Ethanol produces more power, but less MPG for a car. I use 25% E85 75% gas when i go to the track, which boosts your power by a bit or a lot depending on your tune and modifications to the car and other stuff. Its safer then leaded race gas.

 

But you lose the fuel milage.. you can make very good power on ethanol especialy if you up the compression ratio.

 

I use to build alcohol race engines with a compression ratio,s of 16:1 and did one at 17:1...when i worked in the speed shop..

Sunoco pissed me off when they introduced 91 octane as "premium", and dropped Ultra from 94 to 93 octane. For most people it doesn't really matter, but anyone running forced induction or high compression engines ... that Ultra94 gave an extra margian of saftey, and an ability to dial up boost a bit.

 

But you lose the fuel milage.. you can make very good power on ethanol especialy if you up the compression ratio.

 

I use to build alcohol race engines with a compression ratio,s of 16:1 and did one at 17:1...when i worked in the speed shop..

 

Those are very high compression ratios, I'm guessing they were all motor engines, correct? My compression is only 11:1, and the ethanol does something

... on pump gas only I do 14.1 and on the mix of 25% ethanol and 75% pump I do about 13.8 with 13.6 being my best

 

Sent from my LG-P925 using Tapatalk

Im running 17.5:1 at 3 bar... but of course pre-ignition isn't a concern of mine.

 

We lost all out sunoco's down here a while ago to gulf. I try to get to shell when I can but do to location all the shells are very often insanly high priced compared to other stations (.25-.30c)

looks like there may be natural gas filling stations on the way to me.

 

Nice! I always wondered why more CNG vehicles weren't sold to the public. CNG is dirt cheap and American supplies are huge.

Brazil uses natural gas for their cars, I believe.

 

Also - this is more than just the local filling stations. Sunoco also has storage and refinery facilities in NJ....

Have not found any local Sunoco stations close to me since I moved down the shore and the Shell stations are always priced much higher that the surrounding stations. Even when there are 4 gas stations on an intersection, the Shell is typically at least .10 more than the others.

Acutally Ethanol produces more power, but less MPG for a car. I use 25% E85 75% gas when i go to the track, which boosts your power by a bit or a lot depending on your tune and modifications to the car and other stuff. Its safer then leaded race gas.

 

Ethanol produces less BTU's than gasoline. You can make more power with it on race vehicles due to its higher octane rating. Comparing its use in street vehicles to race cars is an apples to oranges comparison, not very useful.

 

It gives you less MPGs due to its lower BTU rating. You get less power out of it versus gasoline.

 

Here's one of a number of websites that has details on it:

 

Part in bold is my emphasis.

http://www.hho4free.com/gasoline_vs_ethanol.htm

One US gallon of gasoline contains 114,000 BTU of energy; depending on the time of year, and depending on what is in the gasoline. It is getting harder to find gasoline's that does not contain 5 to 10% of Ethanol. Ethanol is ethyl alcohol; the kind of alcohol in beverages; beer, whiskey, bourbon, vodka, cocktails, etc.. It takes one and a half US gallons of ethanol to equal the energy in one US gallon of gasoline; the reason... because ethanol only has 76,100 BTU's of energy per gallon. Less energy means less miles per gallon. In 2007 George W. Bush made it possible for gas stations to sell Gasohol (E10) without labeling the pumps; in other words, you may not know alcohol is in the gas. Ever wonder where your gas mileage went?

I miss ultra 94.

Ethanol produces less BTU's than gasoline. You can make more power with it on race vehicles due to its higher octane rating. Comparing its use in street vehicles to race cars is an apples to oranges comparison, not very useful.

 

It gives you less MPGs due to its lower BTU rating. You get less power out of it versus gasoline.

 

Here's one of a number of websites that has details on it:

 

Part in bold is my emphasis.

http://www.hho4free...._vs_ethanol.htm

 

A lower BTU keeps the engine cooler, which means more power and less stress on the engine... If you look at deisel, it burns at 128,xxx, the higher the BTU the hotter the engine runs/burns which results in less power out of the engine. Keeping the engine as cool as possible is key to gain power. If you have searched enough, E85 has an equivalent Octane 105, Race fuel is about 110-116 depending on what route you take. The higher the Octane the faster the fuel burns, the quicker the engine combusts, the faster you go. MPG doesnt matter if you want to go faster. But yes, having gasoline with any mixture of Ethanol will bring your MPG's down.

A lower BTU keeps the engine cooler, which means more power and less stress on the engine... If you look at deisel, it burns at 128,xxx, the higher the BTU the hotter the engine runs/burns which results in less power out of the engine. Keeping the engine as cool as possible is key to gain power. If you have searched enough, E85 has an equivalent Octane 105, Race fuel is about 110-116 depending on what route you take. The higher the Octane the faster the fuel burns, the quicker the engine combusts, the faster you go.

 

Diesel contains more energy per part then gasoline or alchohol. It also does not run hotter. BTU even though it is a thermal rating really has a lot more to do with energy potential and not the temp that x fuel burn in an engine.

 

also octane does not dictate how fast a fuel burns but the stability of said fuel particulary under pressure. Cetane on the other hand does tell how fast a fuel will burn.

A lower BTU keeps the engine cooler, which means more power and less stress on the engine... If you look at deisel, it burns at 128,xxx, the higher the BTU the hotter the engine runs/burns which results in less power out of the engine. Keeping the engine as cool as possible is key to gain power. If you have searched enough, E85 has an equivalent Octane 105, Race fuel is about 110-116 depending on what route you take. The higher the Octane the faster the fuel burns, the quicker the engine combusts, the faster you go. MPG doesnt matter if you want to go faster. But yes, having gasoline with any mixture of Ethanol will bring your MPG's down.

 

Diesel is a completely different animal, those engines run in the neighborhood of 18:1 compression ratio. Diesel fuel is in no way comparable to gasoline, different beast entirely, as the combustion process is completely different.

 

The octane rating indicates the resistance of a fuel to pre-ignition. It also indicates that the fuel burns slower, not faster. I dispute your claim. Running 100+ octane gasoline in a regular street driven vehicle is a complete waste, as these vehicles are designed to run on 87 octane gasoline. Most all have compression ratios in the 9-9.5:1 region. Running higher octane fuel does not give you more power in such applications. In actuality, you will have issues with excessive carbon build-up, and fuel washing down the cylinder walls, as the low compression ratio of the engine will be insufficient to effectively burn the fuel fast enough, leading to excessive unburned fuel in the combustion chamber, and a cooler combustion chamber. You want the combustion chamber to be as hot as possible, without causing pre-ignition. A nice, hot chamber will allow for superior fuel atomization and a cleaner burning process than a cold one. There's a reason why most cars are designed to run with coolant temperatures around 200-210 degrees Fahrenheit. Colder does not equal more power.

 

Here's some slightly more credible information, from a college: Parts in bold are my doing.

 

http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/08/ajb/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Octane_rating.html

 

Octane rating does not relate to the energy content of the fuel (see heating value). It is only a measure of the fuel's tendency to burn in a controlled manner, rather than exploding in an uncontrolled manner. Where octane is raised by blending in ethanol, energy content per volume is reduced.

 

What that is saying is, although the fuel is more resistant to pre-ignition, it produces less energy. So you are using more of it to do the same amount of work. This is why the fuel mileage is poorer than straight gasoline.

 

Here's another, though from a less credible source:

 

http://alternativefuels.about.com/od/ethanol/a/E85economydrop.htm

Ethanol's lower energy content (76,100 BTUs/Gal.) is a big contributor to its reduced fuel economy compared to gasoline (114,100 BTUs/Gal). Even though FFVs burn E85 (81,800 BTUs/Gal) and the energy penalty isn't as severe, it still requires more fuel to do the same work. On paper, according to our GGE chart, it takes 1.39 gallons of E85 to move a flex-fuel vehicle the same distance as 1 gallon of gasoline.

Diesel is a completely different animal, those engines run in the neighborhood of 18:1 compression ratio. Diesel fuel is in no way comparable to gasoline, different beast entirely, as the combustion process is completely different.The octane rating indicates the resistance of a fuel to pre-ignition. It also indicates that the fuel burns slower, not faster. I dispute your claim. Running 100+ octane gasoline in a regular street driven vehicle is a complete waste, as these vehicles are designed to run on 87 octane gasoline. Most all have compression ratios in the 9-9.5:1 region. Running higher octane fuel does not give you more power in such applications. In actuality, you will have issues with excessive carbon build-up, and fuel washing down the cylinder walls, as the low compression ratio of the engine will be insufficient to effectively burn the fuel fast enough, leading to excessive unburned fuel in the combustion chamber, and a cooler combustion chamber. You want the combustion chamber to be as hot as possible, without causing pre-ignition. A nice, hot chamber will allow for superior fuel atomization and a cleaner burning process than a cold one. There's a reason why most cars are designed to run with coolant temperatures around 200-210 degrees Fahrenheit. Colder does not equal more power.Here's some slightly more credible information, from a college: Parts in bold are my doing.http://www.sccs.swar...ane_rating.htmlWhat that is saying is, although the fuel is more resistant to pre-ignition, it produces less energy. So you are using more of it to do the same amount of work. This is why the fuel mileage is poorer than straight gasoline.Here's another, though from a less credible source:http://alternativefu...economydrop.htm

I go by my numbers, I run faster at the track with the E85 mixture and gasoline, so does everyone one else, also my engine temp with pump gas is usually at 188° when just city driving, usually shoots to 200° when driving aggressively, with the mixture of E85 and the beating I give it at the track its doesn't go above 179°, cooler engine temp is better then hotter temp. U keep the engine cool and u get ur power when u need it... govto the track one day and talk to the people who run E85 and pump gas and they will tell you the same... even better go to a tuner shop and they will tell you what I am saying as well. Why do you think Turbo cars run methanol kits? To boost their power and keep the engine cool, that way they have a consistent run all the time.Sent from my LG-P925 using Tapatalk

Cars generally run a lot cooler on the track then on the street. sure you're on it hard but only for 15 seconds or less. then you'vce got lots of cooldown time in the staging lanes.

 

I actually need to let my truck idle in the lanes on really busy nights to keep the temp where it needs to be for the most efficent combustion.

I go by my numbers, I run faster at the track with the E85 mixture and gasoline, so does everyone one else, also my engine temp with pump gas is usually at 188° when just city driving, usually shoots to 200° when driving aggressively, with the mixture of E85 and the beating I give it at the track its doesn't go above 179°, cooler engine temp is better then hotter temp. U keep the engine cool and u get ur power when u need it... govto the track one day and talk to the people who run E85 and pump gas and they will tell you the same... even better go to a tuner shop and they will tell you what I am saying as well. Why do you think Turbo cars run methanol kits? To boost their power and keep the engine cool, that way they have a consistent run all the time.Sent from my LG-P925 using Tapatalk

 

That's the second time that argument has been raised.

 

Your experience on a race track has nothing to do with street driving, in a regular car. Completely different scenario. Not comparable at all.

 

Cooler engine temperatures will lead to reduced engine durability. The "sweet spot" is about 200 degrees.

 

 

 

You also aren't understanding my argument. I am saying that you make less power with Ethanol than you do with gasoline. It has less BTUs, and will make less power. This leads to reduced fuel economy, as you must use more fuel to do the same amount of work. I am not talking horsepower here, or 1/4 mile track times, or methanol injected turbo-charged race cars (methanol hasn't even been mentioned in this thread at all, dunno why you are talking about it). What I am talking about, is that you get less work out of a gallon of ethanol versus gasoline. A nice hot combustion chamber will lead to a more efficient burning of the fuel, with increased fuel atomization and a resulting bump in fuel economy.

 

The kind of vehicles and real world experiences I am talking about are street vehicles, not your race car. Vehicles like my '05 Ranger. It has a 4.0L SOHC V6, 9.7:1 compression ratio, runs on 87 octane gasoline. I consistently see 14-15MPG when using Wawa gasoline, and 16.5-18MPG when using Sunoco gasoline. The reason for this is due to the lower amount of power that ethanol-blended gasoline produces. Less power = less work = poorer fuel mileage. Again, I am not talking horsepower here, I am talking about motive force.

Brazil uses natural gas for their cars, I believe.

 

 

No, they're using very high % or almost pure ethanol in most cases

The last time I used sunoco It was $ .49 a gallon for 260 " 102 " octane. I use to get it on the asbury 66 circle. sat nite asbury park circuit cruisers 68 SS 396 Chevelle

That's the second time that argument has been raised.

 

Your experience on a race track has nothing to do with street driving, in a regular car. Completely different scenario. Not comparable at all.

 

Cooler engine temperatures will lead to reduced engine durability. The "sweet spot" is about 200 degrees.

 

 

 

You also aren't understanding my argument. I am saying that you make less power with Ethanol than you do with gasoline. It has less BTUs, and will make less power. This leads to reduced fuel economy, as you must use more fuel to do the same amount of work. I am not talking horsepower here, or 1/4 mile track times, or methanol injected turbo-charged race cars (methanol hasn't even been mentioned in this thread at all, dunno why you are talking about it). What I am talking about, is that you get less work out of a gallon of ethanol versus gasoline. A nice hot combustion chamber will lead to a more efficient burning of the fuel, with increased fuel atomization and a resulting bump in fuel economy.

 

The kind of vehicles and real world experiences I am talking about are street vehicles, not your race car. Vehicles like my '05 Ranger. It has a 4.0L SOHC V6, 9.7:1 compression ratio, runs on 87 octane gasoline. I consistently see 14-15MPG when using Wawa gasoline, and 16.5-18MPG when using Sunoco gasoline. The reason for this is due to the lower amount of power that ethanol-blended gasoline produces. Less power = less work = poorer fuel mileage. Again, I am not talking horsepower here, I am talking about motive force.

 

Ok... Just to be clear, i wasnt talking about race cars, i was talking about everyday driven cars, such as mine.

Ok... Just to be clear, i wasnt talking about race cars, i was talking about everyday driven cars, such as mine. And yes with low compression engines, it is best to run regular or plus, you will waste your money on filling it up with super. My 2001 pathfinder runs better on regular and plus then on super/premium.

Have not found any local Sunoco stations close to me since I moved down the shore and the Shell stations are always priced much higher that the surrounding stations. Even when there are 4 gas stations on an intersection, the Shell is typically at least .10 more than the others.

 

i would say that is due to better quality products than many...note that shell and exxon are one of the few fuels approved by many automakers...take a look at this http://www.toptiergas.com/

Ok... Just to be clear, i wasnt talking about race cars, i was talking about everyday driven cars, such as mine. And yes with low compression engines, it is best to run regular or plus, you will waste your money on filling it up with super. My 2001 pathfinder runs better on regular and plus then on super/premium.

 

Hm. Could you restate your argument, then? I'm having trouble following you, as you have been making references to racing vehicles and performance in a racing setting up until now. That is what has been throwing me for a loop. With that statement, I almost think we are agreeing with each other, yet still debating about it! To be clear on my part, I am of the belief that we are engaging in a simple, civil debate over the pros and cons of ethanol use in gasoline. I am not attempting to start a shouting match or anything of that nature. Good, clean debate is all I believe we are engaging in currently. I just want to make sure we are on the same page as far as that is concerned, as I do not wish to piss anyone off here.

 

Also, as an aside, I agree with most of your statements regarding racing. I have a '90 Mustang myself, and Ethanol blended fuels do indeed make more horsepower than straight gasoline, when you tweak the engine and tune to accommodate it. A lot of it simply has to do with taking advantage of ethanol's higher resistance to detonation (pre-ignition). You can run a higher static compression ratio to offset the power loss from the lower BTU's of the fuel, as well as advance the ignition timing more. This generally makes for a net increase in power production. You can also keep intake runner temperatures lower, and thereby increase the density of the air charge going into the combustion chamber. Denser air means you can enrichen the air:fuel mixture. Race cars run on the ragged edge, butting right up against the limit of where spark knock and detonation occur. Warding off these two things is the prime concern.