May 10, 201214 yr So, I'm 99% sure I couldn't take posession of a complete lower with a pistol grip and collapseable already on it. But if I had the FFL it came into remove either the stock or PG or both could I then take posession of it and the parts or would I have to either have to leave one part with the FFL or have the stock pinned before i could take it home (detached and seperated from the lower?)
May 10, 201214 yr "Assault firearm" means a part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts from which an assault firearm may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
May 10, 201214 yr edit The way i understand the law to read is that without the upper, you actually do not have what is considered a "firearm" therefor you would be fine to do what you need to do for the time being. only my opinion
May 10, 201214 yr Pistol grip and collapsible stock are two evil features, so I would say its a no go. According to the law, the receiver is considered the firearm. From Vlad's law sticky: A semi-automatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following: This means that if it is a semi-automatic rifle and has a detachable magazine it can have ONE of the following features and still be legal, but if it has two or more, then it would not be legal. (1) A folding or telescoping stock; (2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (3) A bayonet mount; (4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; (5) A grenade launcher
May 10, 201214 yr Author Well here's my dilemma, I would like to at some point buy the New Frontier complete lower, then when more funds become available and I finally decide on which upper to mate it with then decide which position to have the stock pinned. How will I know where to have the stock pinned with just the lower? Having never owned an AR before... will a lower by itself take a magazine without an upper? If not that could be a legal loophole...
May 10, 201214 yr Here is what I did. There was a thread here that walked you through how to "pin" a magpul stock without drilling a hole for a pin. Basically you are replacing a spring in the mechanism that lets you adjust it with a pin, making it un-adjustable. It takes about 10 mins to un-assemble and adjust it if you need to make adjustments, but still serves as a "non-collapsible" stock as the law requires. After pinning mine, i decided to un-do it, and pin it a little longer out. (this was all before having a complete rifle in possession)
May 10, 201214 yr Author Here is what I did. There was a thread here that walked you through how to "pin" a magpul stock without drilling a hole for a pin. Basically you are replacing a spring in the mechanism that lets you adjust it with a pin, making it un-adjustable. It takes about 10 mins to un-assemble and adjust it if you need to make adjustments, but still serves as a "non-collapsible" stock as the law requires. After pinning mine, i decided to un-do it, and pin it a little longer out. (this was all before having a complete rifle in possession) But if I go that route, I'll either have to have the FFL pin it in that manner or keep the pistol grip... That would work well though if the lower I wanted didn't already include the stock and I was just ordering one online.
May 10, 201214 yr Well let me ask you this, why not buy a stripped lower, and piece this stuff together as you go along? You get what you want the 1st time around and can learn a lot in the mean time. I have literally fired an AR MAYBE 20 times total in my life (talk ing trigger pulls, not range trips) and knew nothing about putting them together. After some youtubes and articles i put it together in MAYBE an hour. That was taking my sweet time, watching vids, shooting springs accross the room, and having a few beers. Point is, its not hard at all, cheaper than buying a complete lower, you learn how to put a lower together incase a pin decides to walk out at the range one day you know what to do with it, and you get to work on a gun. Who doesnt like to do that?!?
May 10, 201214 yr Technically no legal way to do it in NJ unless a dealer/FFL does it for you before you take ownership. Other options are to not have the pistol grip attached nor in your possession while making stock adjustments. The stock would be your one evil feature. Then once it is pinned, you can put the pistol grip back on. I'm not condoning breaking any laws, but for the 10 seconds it takes to adjust your stock and pin..., I doubt the govt has surveillance cameras in your home to see what you are doing...
May 10, 201214 yr Author Well let me ask you this, why not buy a stripped lower, and piece this stuff together as you go along? You get what you want the 1st time around and can learn a lot in the mean time. I have literally fired an AR MAYBE 20 times total in my life (talk ing trigger pulls, not range trips) and knew nothing about putting them together. After some youtubes and articles i put it together in MAYBE an hour. That was taking my sweet time, watching vids, shooting springs accross the room, and having a few beers. Point is, its not hard at all, cheaper than buying a complete lower, you learn how to put a lower together incase a pin decides to walk out at the range one day you know what to do with it, and you get to work on a gun. Who doesnt like to do that?!? Assembeling one doesn't scare me at all. In fact I would like to do it just to get the experince...however for $100 for the COMPLETE lower including the stock and grip can't be beat as far as I can tell. It would cost reasonably more to piece it together or so it seems.
May 10, 201214 yr Author Technically no legal way to do it in NJ unless a dealer/FFL does it for you before you take ownership. Other options are to not have the pistol grip attached nor in your possession while making stock adjustments. The stock would be your one evil feature. Then once it is pinned, you can put the pistol grip back on. I'm not condoning breaking any laws, but for the 10 seconds it takes to adjust your stock and pin..., I doubt the govt has surveillance cameras in your home to see what you are doing... I'm not worried about the fuzz getting me while im making adjustments.. I'm worried about getting the parts into my posession since the lower comes assembeled. Maybe I can have the FFL remove the grip and sell it to a friend of mine or something for $1 then he can hold it until i decide where to pin the stock....
May 10, 201214 yr Technically no legal way to do it in NJ unless a dealer/FFL does it for you before you take ownership. Other options are to not have the pistol grip attached nor in your possession while making stock adjustments. The stock would be your one evil feature. Then once it is pinned, you can put the pistol grip back on. I'm not condoning breaking any laws, but for the 10 seconds it takes to adjust your stock and pin..., I doubt the govt has surveillance cameras in your home to see what you are doing... i agree but i think the concern is mainly that when he receives the complete lower, it wont be pinned at all from the get go.
May 10, 201214 yr Author exactly, and I don't know if any dealers will be willing to pin it in the manner that you spoke of where i could semi-easily change it when i get home
May 10, 201214 yr well honestly, with any pin job, all you need is a punch and a hammer and you can pop out the pin and adjust it. no different with the way i did mine...
May 10, 201214 yr Author True, thats probably what i'll have to do but it is less then ideal becuase i'll have to undo that and be stuck with a hole in the stock and then drill again to redo it unless I do it the way you did yours
May 10, 201214 yr what type of stock does it come with? im pretty sure the way i did mine will only work with a magpul one. Not to say they cant be done on others, but the write up that is one here and other web sites are for magpul specific stocks/ $100 is dirt cheap tho for a complete lower. Just be sure its what you want. Its pointless to spend $100 on a lower with a stock and grip you dont like, b/c you will end up buying what you want and the other stuff will go to waste anyway. You may be better off paying $150 now and getting exactly what you want. Order that stuff later and you end up paying sep shipping and stuff....
May 10, 201214 yr Author I figure even if I decide I don't like it down the road I'll still be better off with this. Plus having very little AR experiance it will at leats give me something to base upgrades/changes off of.
May 10, 201214 yr Not that I think of it, isn't the pistol grip just attached to the AR15 through a simple screw? Couldn't you just remove the pistol grip and give it to a friend. Now you are no longer in possession, get your collapsible stock and pin it wherever you want. Then when it is pinned, have your friend bring back the pistol grip. Or, keep the folding stock and try this California option: https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/exile-machine-hammerhead-ar-15-grip-black-1.html
May 10, 201214 yr Author I would go with the first plan but i don't know if an FFL would go along with it.... second plan.. Fugg no
May 10, 201214 yr What's the complete lower you are getting for $100, as others said, make sure it has stuff you want on it. IMO it will be more rewarding to build it from the ground up. You can get a lower for around $59, then put on the parts that you want. There are so many better options out there for reasonable prices over a stock AR grip and CAR collapsible stock...
May 10, 201214 yr Author but to build it I would still be guessing on what parts I want becuase I have no experiance with them. I'de rather take a guess on the whole shebang for $109 and have the ability to change/upgrade then take a guess for $200 and still maybe not end up liking the configuration.
May 10, 201214 yr Yea I see your point. Then at least you can use the parts you eventually pull off it as spares....
May 10, 201214 yr Buy a stripped lower and a PSA lower build kit. It will cost you more but you'll be getting good parts and the knowledge that comes with putting it together yourself. You can upgrade to the magpul lower build kit and complete a real nice lower around $200 or so. Don't know much about the frontier arms lower but I know a few friends that went with the magpul lower build kit from PSA and have had nothing but good things to say. Myself included. PM me of you have any questions.
May 10, 201214 yr no upper no issue.. NJ defines the word firearm.. f. "Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, orany gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person. yes I know.. the lower carries a serial and is essentially the gun.. BUT you can NOT do THIS "Assault firearm" means a part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts from which an assault firearm may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person. without an upper.. buy the lower.. pin the stock.. get the upper.. legal IMO
May 10, 201214 yr ^ What i said in my original post, but i took it down b/c i seemed like the minority and didnt want to be the one to blame if something goes down lol
May 10, 201214 yr IMO of course... The definition states : "f. "Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or" , with "or" being the important part. So would a lower in NJ be defined as a "rifle"? I would say yes as you need a FPID card to purchase one. The stuff after "or" isn't defining what a rifle, handgun, shotgun, etc is per-say. It is just descriptive verbage to catch any other objects that may not be purchased as firearms, but were adapted to act like one... i.e. someone fabricating plumbing parts so that it can fire shotgun shells, etc.
May 10, 201214 yr IMO of course... The definition states : "f. "Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or" , with "or" being the important part. So would a lower in NJ be defined as a "rifle"? I would say yes as you need a FPID card to purchase one. The stuff after "or" isn't defining what a rifle, handgun, shotgun, etc is per-say. It is just descriptive verbage to catch any other objects that may not be purchased as firearms, but were adapted to act like one... i.e. someone fabricating plumbing parts so that it can fire shotgun shells, etc. a lower is not a rifle per NJ definition because it does not work without an upper.. m. "Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
May 10, 201214 yr Author Hmmm,... Vlad has a very valid point although it will most likely be moot in this instance. Becuase wether or not it is asctually legal I'm very doubtful an FFL will be willing to take that chance with just giving me the lower as it comes. But maybe I'm wrong...
May 10, 201214 yr a lower is not a rifle per NJ definition because it does not work without an upper.. I stand corrected, good point.
May 11, 201214 yr I stand corrected, good point. No, it isn't a good point. The lower IS the "firearm".....if how want to roll those dice go ahead.....but don't **** here if you end up as a felon.
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