How can you, as a police officer, support a system that wastes countless precious police man hours on pointless and redundant paperwork? Why isn't the NICS check good enough or at least a system where you get one permit, one time, within 30 days, and don't need to repeatedly go back for pistol permits?

 

I dont make the laws, the people voted into office make the laws pertaining to that. Do I have a better solution? Sure...Move to P.A. thats what I intend on doing in another 12 years when I retire. Im assuming the politicians decided the State needs some more money from the whole process and application fees. Also now most towns use an outside agency comprised of minimum wage workers to do your fingerprinting on the live scan. I can only assume some politician somewhere has stock or interest in that whole process also..I dont support the "system" as much as you think, I just know there are certain individuals that should never have access to firearms..

 

If you object to the possibility of untrained people carrying in public, what would be the problem with allowing anyone who 1) passes a background and mental health check and 2) passes the same qualification course as retired LEO to carry? Curious as to your answers to those questions.

#1)Liability- Who assumes liability once that person uses deadly force against someone in the state with some of the most strict and stupid self defense laws in the nation. There are very few instances where a police officer can use deadly force and the letter of the law has to be followed to do so. Even then your getting put on trial by the media and the special interest groups,and this is a person who is trained in understanding the law. Most average persons do not understand the law enough to legitimately utilize a fire arm properly and not be charged with murder. I can tell you the State will never allow the liability of having tens of thousands of Dirty Harry's running around town.

 

#2)Qualifications- ok so you have proven you know how to shoot, but do you know "WHEN" is acceptable to shoot in self defense? The way the law is written in NJ you must first attempt to flee to safety prior to using force to defend yourself. The laws aren't as relaxed as Florida and look what happened there...

 

 

You live in NJ so therefore you have to deal with and play the cards your dealt.Otherwise move to PA where America begins...LOL

The " animals" he is referring to are the ones that we must protect the general public from. We keep the sheep safe from the wolves. I also agree that there are people who probably people who can get firearms that still shouldn't have them but that is not my place to decide that. I will also agree that the system is flawed. The NICS should be enough if the initial check for the FID is stringent enough. One every thirty doesn't do anything but hurt the economy. Dealers should be responsible for permits if permits are required on handguns. That keeps local towns and the staties from needless extra work and put on the streets where we belong.

 

Yes there are a lot of people who have rights that probably shouldn't (I'm sure you've seen at least a few "That person should not be allowed to reproduce" and even though every time Lautenmummy speaks you know its pure BS). But until they DO something to prove they are not responsible to handle those rights there ias nothing you can do.

 

Fid is just another way of NJ extorting more money from NJ citizens. Why can a NICS check be done in PA for free but it costs 15+ in NJ? Because NJ puts the middle layer so they call the SP who do the exact same NICS check as in PA.

The " animals" he is referring to are the ones that we must protect the general public from. We keep the sheep safe from the wolves. I also agree that there are people who probably people who can get firearms that still shouldn't have them but that is not my place to decide that. I will also agree that the system is flawed. The NICS should be enough if the initial check for the FID is stringent enough. One every thirty doesn't do anything but hurt the economy. Dealers should be responsible for permits if permits are required on handguns. That keeps local towns and the staties from needless extra work and put on the streets where we belong.

 

If the NJ Govt didn't make us into sheep by not allowing us to protect ourselves we really wouldn't be sheep now would we? Right now I am a wolf that has been defanged. I have never been a sheep and hopefully never will be. The true sheep are the elderly, disabled, and the people who don't have the strength to protect themselves. I don't think you will find many sheep around here, just defanged wolves.

. I can tell you the State will never allow the liability of having tens of thousands of Dirty Harry's running around town.

 

yea its so much better having tens of thousands of gang members in control of the streets isn't it.

yea its so much better having tens of thousands of gang members in control of the streets isn't it.

Its no liability to the State at all actually....Thats all the politicians care about is who get blamed. The democrats blame the republicans and vice versa when stuff is all screwed up. It's always someone else's fault no one is held accountable for their own actions didnt you know that? Average citizens having the capability to murder someone in self defense is not the solve all answer for NJ. There is no answer for NJ..

I can tell you the State will never allow the liability of having tens of thousands of Dirty Harry's running around town.

 

 

Nice. You sound like a true anti with a statement like that, whether you meant to or not.

This is NJ, guns are considered evil. The chances of such an amendment ever passing here is the same as having 12 feet of snow in the middle of August.

Oh I 100% agree with you on that. Look at Mexico, gun ownership is completely illegal for citizens, yet they have some of the worst gun violence in the world.

 

I do however understand the state's position on wanting to limit or keep track of gun ownership. NJ is a fairly densely populated state.

 

Not Illegal, but lots of hoops to jump through to own them there.

 

On the second part: What does the density have to do with anything, and why should it be kept track of (luckily it's only pistols here) but WTF, what's this LIMIT idea of yours??

In NJ you have the right to bear arms as long as your not a criminal or psycho and pass a background check proving such, so whats the big deal? Dont commit felony crimes, dont be a bipolar nut job and you can buy as many rifles and shotguns as you want...Would you really feel safe that any idiot with NJ residency could walk into wallmart and buy guns? Have you seen most of the animals in this state??

 

As long as they weren't a prohibited person, why not, Works in the FREE AMERICA pretty well.

I like PA's amendment - "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

 

This doesn't mean there aren't any regulations around firearms ownership and carrying. It would make the just cause unconstitutional, ya know by restating US 2A.

Nice. You sound like a true anti with a statement like that, whether you meant to or not.

 

The more posts and then the little back a forth with Paul and I'm thinking he has an agenda here and not here to contribute, but who knows how this will all play out.

 

For now: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Its no liability to the State at all actually....Thats all the politicians care about is who get blamed. The democrats blame the republicans and vice versa when stuff is all screwed up. It's always someone else's fault no one is held accountable for their own actions didnt you know that? Average citizens having the capability to murder someone in self defense is not the solve all answer for NJ. There is no answer for NJ..

self defence is not murder

self defence is not murder

 

+1000.

 

Restraint.

 

No, forget restraint. So let me ask you this: Since only LEO's in your opinion are intelligent enough to determine a shoot/no-shoot situation, how are the law abiding average citizens in all the CCW states getting by without killing each other? Are they special? And to use NJ's strict laws regarding deadly force as a reasoning to deny a right to protect my family is just plain BS.

 

/rant /thread hijack

 

mcbethr has a good idea. It can't hurt to try. Sitting back has not gotten us anywhere, and it's the folks at NJ2AS, ANJRPC, and similair homegrown NJ second amendent groups who are fighting the battles for us.

Nice. You sound like a true anti with a statement like that, whether you meant to or not.

Not trying to at all, but giving the average NJ citizen the right to carry a device which sole purpose is to end someones life, is not going to solve our problems in NJ

Not Illegal, but lots of hoops to jump through to own them there.

 

On the second part: What does the density have to do with anything, and why should it be kept track of (luckily it's only pistols here) but WTF, what's this LIMIT idea of yours??

Same reason you can carry in PA but not in the major metro areas like Philly. Ask the politicians why they came up with that one..

Not trying to at all, but giving the average NJ citizen the right to carry a device which sole purpose is to end someones life, is not going to solve our problems in NJ

 

So the 2A means nothing to you and I presume you feel you and people in your profession are the only ones who are qualified to carry a firearm. :facepalm:

The more posts and then the little back a forth with Paul and I'm thinking he has an agenda here and not here to contribute, but who knows how this will all play out.

 

For now: :popcorn: :popcorn:

 

You correct, I have an agenda...Or could it be that in our free America, Im just sharing my "opinions" on a topic? Could that possibly be??

So the 2A means nothing to you and I presume you feel you and people in your profession are the only ones who are qualified to carry a firearm. :facepalm:

Not at all, but IMHO the average citizen I run across on a daily basis has no business carrying a concealed weapon..This thread is stupid, your idea is stupid. There is not one single politician who will listen to your idea. All they care about in NJ is getting the liberal and democratic vote come election day..

You correct, I have an agenda...Or could it be that in our free America, Im just sharing my "opinions" on a topic? Could that possibly be??

 

Well so far you sound ANTI, Very ANTI and put off the impression that YOU are better than the rest of us..

 

This maybe true, may not be, but that's what I am getting from your posts since you joined.

self defence is not murder

self defence is not murder

Tell that to the People in Florida...See how the special interest groups got their way down there? and keep in mind FLorida's self defense laws are much more relaxed and fair than ours..

Well so far you sound ANTI, Very ANTI and put off the impression that YOU are better than the rest of us..

 

This maybe true, may not be, but that's what I am getting from your posts since you joined.

 

I am trained and have the "LIABILITY" on my shoulders of carrying a fire arm in NJ.Trust me, it is over rated and you dont want it..The average citizen will not be willing to go to any extensive training to carry a fire arm in NJ...

Not at all, but IMHO the average citizen I run across on a daily basis has no business carrying a concealed weapon..

 

 

There we go again, painting the GP with a rather big brush there...

 

 

This thread is stupid, your idea is stupid. There is not one single politician who will listen to your idea. All they care about in NJ is getting the liberal and democratic vote come election day..

 

So the idea to find a way for the PR of NY to recognize the 2A is stupid,, great to have your support of the constitution..

 

Buddy, I have been in the game to know 1 thing. once you give the Govt any power, you will never get them to release it. Simply deal with the right that NJ recognizes in regards to Firearms, or move to a state that has more relaxed or no restrictions. But you will not fight the State and win, and not one politician in this liberal pussified state will even acknowledge your requests..But if you feel like wasting time, have at it tiger..Ill be in PA in a few years with an arsenal of weapons..

 

Buddy, I have been in the game to know 1 thing. once you give the Govt any power, you will never get them to release it. Simply deal with the right that NJ recognizes in regards to Firearms, or move to a state that has more relaxed or no restrictions. But you will not fight the State and win, and not one politician in this liberal pussified state will even acknowledge your requests..But if you feel like wasting time, have at it tiger..Ill be in PA in a few years with an arsenal of weapons..

 

...surrounded by wolves who have gotten their carry licenses. Maybe rethink that move. You don't want to live near too many armed 'animals'

I am trained and have the "LIABILITY" on my shoulders of carrying a fire arm in NJ.Trust me, it is over rated and you don't want it..The average citizen will not be willing to go to any extensive training to carry a fire arm in NJ...

 

I'm done with this but will leave one last comment, WHO THE F are you to say if I should or if I shouldn't be able to carry.

 

I'll also note, Where the heck in the 27 words of the 2A that I need Training to afford the right to be able to defend myself with a firearm??

 

By the way it doesn't, and while I feel anyone who does decide to carry should take it upon themselves to get some training but I can not support and mandatory training for a RIGHT.

 

I'll say, it still seems like you have an agenda and are just an ANTI trying to stir up crap is all.

 

I'll call it now, at least when it come to this topic, you trolling is all your doing.., not because you don't agree that the 2A exists, but because you feel that you are above the rest of us, get over it, you have a job, you chose it, you not better than others, yea it's can be a tough job, probably feel under appreciated at times, but it's just that a job, thats it, sorry your not better just because of your job.

 

Now to the other LEO's in here the I know and other who I have not meet, I don't ever take the it's them and us position, it's just this thread and the responses struck a nerve. Sorry for the rant to the other LEO's here, but it's guys with attitudes like this that make some people look at the profession in a different light than it should be.

Not your Buddy, and can retire in 4 more years if I want and will have split residency in both AZ and FL so no worries there. As far as a lost cause, well it took a crappy turn in 66 and again in 68 but it's not a lost cause, and can change, but it's won't happen with people doing nothing is all I know.

 

Also, not sure, but your addressing me and this thread as if I was the OP, I wasn't but don't see it being a bad idea, or one without merit.

I dont make the laws, the people voted into office make the laws pertaining to that. Do I have a better solution? Sure...Move to P.A. thats what I intend on doing in another 12 years when I retire. Im assuming the politicians decided the State needs some more money from the whole process and application fees. Also now most towns use an outside agency comprised of minimum wage workers to do your fingerprinting on the live scan. I can only assume some politician somewhere has stock or interest in that whole process also..I dont support the "system" as much as you think, I just know there are certain individuals that should never have access to firearms..

 

 

#1)Liability- Who assumes liability once that person uses deadly force against someone in the state with some of the most strict and stupid self defense laws in the nation. There are very few instances where a police officer can use deadly force and the letter of the law has to be followed to do so. Even then your getting put on trial by the media and the special interest groups,and this is a person who is trained in understanding the law. Most average persons do not understand the law enough to legitimately utilize a fire arm properly and not be charged with murder. I can tell you the State will never allow the liability of having tens of thousands of Dirty Harry's running around town.

 

#2)Qualifications- ok so you have proven you know how to shoot, but do you know "WHEN" is acceptable to shoot in self defense? The way the law is written in NJ you must first attempt to flee to safety prior to using force to defend yourself. The laws aren't as relaxed as Florida and look what happened there...

 

 

You live in NJ so therefore you have to deal with and play the cards your dealt.Otherwise move to PA where America begins...LOL

 

 

 

ok so to answer the first part of your question:

 

Liability is assumed by the preson who discharged the firearm.

 

Is it really that hard to understand? If i walk into an antique store and start breaking things who is liable? the store for being there? or me for doing the act? the answer is me. you can be liable for your actions without ill consequences (such as self-defense).

 

another thing i find disturbing is that you believe police officers are trained in understanding laws. they are not. lawyers are. police are trained to uphold the law. basically protect society from falling, not individual people. but people who happen to be police may understand the laws as they are written. this is because they have common sense and at least average intelligence. i can also tell that you do nut fully understand murder charges. a self defense situation should result in a manslaughter charge if not handled properly, not murder. so you being a cop, can you tell me again who does and doesnt understand the laws?

 

onto the second part:

 

qualification should be tought to all. this system is already in place in many CCW states. many require you take a class that teaches you when and where to shoot or not shoot.

 

problem solved

 

and by the way, cops are some of the worst shots i have ever seen. unless they are gun people who shoot regularly on their own time.

 

and i mean no offense to you or your beliefs. i just find that the average person is fully capable of protecting themself in a dire situation. now if we could just have our tools to even the odds against the crooks the world would be a better place

Guys... Let's stay on topic.

 

I've already spoken with Frank from NJ2AS. I'm getting some stuff together and working on a little math. I'm going to report back to him later.

 

Listen, 236 years ago a bunch of guys bet their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor on splitting from the most powerful nation on earth. I don't think that the Continental Army was ever more than 20,000 strong at any given time, but this Army of brave amateurs managed to beat the most professional army on the planet. I imagine that George Washington had a couple of doubts as he was signing his own death warrant and sending it off to the king.

 

Here is what I know. I don't have to pledge my life like George Washington. All I have to do is make a few excel spreadsheets and a power point presentation - stuff that I'm actually quite good at. I don't have to pledge my fortune - only a little time and gas money. And I don't have to beat the toughest army in the world - I only have to convince 24 senators and 48 assemblymen to send this to a ballot measure. I have my hope pinned on how all of the South Jersey Democrats defected over pension reform and supported Governor Christie

 

The fact is that the South Jersey Democrats will do whatever Senator Sweeny and Chairman Norcross tell them to do. There is where we have hope.

 

Then we have to convince the people - but one problem at a time here. Heck, only 27% of the electorate showed up to vote in the last election and of that 400,000 didn't even answer the ballot question. Which means that with 1.2 million gun owners in this state, we have a chance.

 

We have an honest to G-d shot at this.

Guys... Let's stay on topic.

 

I've already spoken with Frank from NJ2AS. I'm getting some stuff together and working on a little math. I'm going to report back to him later.

 

Listen, 236 years ago a bunch of guys bet their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor on splitting from the most powerful nation on earth. I don't think that the Continental Army was ever more than 20,000 strong at any given time, but this Army of brave amateurs managed to beat the most professional army on the planet. I imagine that George Washington had a couple of doubts as he was signing his own death warrant and sending it off to the king.

 

Here is what I know. I don't have to pledge my life like George Washington. All I have to do is make a few excel spreadsheets and a power point presentation - stuff that I'm actually quite good at. I don't have to pledge my fortune - only a little time and gas money. And I don't have to beat the toughest army in the world - I only have to convince 24 senators and 48 assemblymen to send this to a ballot measure. I have my hope pinned on how all of the South Jersey Democrats defected over pension reform and supported Governor Christie

 

The fact is that the South Jersey Democrats will do whatever Senator Sweeny and Chairman Norcross tell them to do. There is where we have hope.

 

Then we have to convince the people - but one problem at a time here. Heck, only 27% of the electorate showed up to vote in the last election and of that 400,000 didn't even answer the ballot question. Which means that with 1.2 million gun owners in this state, we have a chance.

 

We have an honest to G-d shot at this.

 

Very well stated.

I'm done with this but will leave one last comment, WHO THE F are you to say if I should or if I shouldn't be able to carry.

 

I'll also note, Where the heck in the 27 words of the 2A that I need Training to afford the right to be able to defend myself with a firearm??

 

By the way it doesn't, and while I feel anyone who does decide to carry should take it upon themselves to get some training but I can not support and mandatory training for a RIGHT.

 

I'll say, it still seems like you have an agenda and are just an ANTI trying to stir up crap is all.

 

I'll call it now, at least when it come to this topic, you trolling is all your doing.., not because you don't agree that the 2A exists, but because you feel that you are above the rest of us, get over it, you have a job, you chose it, you not better than others, yea it's can be a tough job, probably feel under appreciated at times, but it's just that a job, thats it, sorry your not better just because of your job.

 

Now to the other LEO's in here the I know and other who I have not meet, I don't ever take the it's them and us position, it's just this thread and the responses struck a nerve. Sorry for the rant to the other LEO's here, but it's guys with attitudes like this that make some people look at the profession in a different light than it should be.

 

Your way off base pal. Trust me when I say this. Carrying a fire arm is more of a liability than it is worth. There are so many guidelines and restriction set forth by the AG's office as to the legal use of force in the State of NJ. I suggest you pick up a law book and read the section about "use of force" in NJ for police officers, then understand that for you to even utilize a fire arm as a civilian so many different criteria would have to be met and so much liability comes with it.

 

Fire at someone in what you THINK is self defense and accidentally hit an innocent person and see what you get charged with...

 

Im done with this thread, you guys are thick headed, good luck with your quest.