I am seeing anecdotal reports on the Internet of a possible problem with WWB 9mm - specifically mentioned were the Value Packs, but I don't know if the problem is limited to those only.

 

As a side note, and begging the moderator's indulgence, I suspect that the firearms in the infamous "gun throwing" thread were victims of this malady.

 

Pictures in a thread on the PAFOA forum confirmed my suspicions. Some WWB 9mm cartridges were produced with cases with no flash holes. When the primer is ignited, it drives the entire cartridge forward and jams it into the lead, while causing the primer to back-out against the breach - locking the gun up solid. Depending on the intensity of the primer and the amount of lead, it may actually move forward enough to blow the primer completely out of the case.

 

Most of the reports I have read come from central and eastern PA. On one thread I have requested the OP post the lot numbers, but he may have already shipped the remaining rounds/boxes back to Winchester.

 

If you are in possession of any recently purchased 9mm WWB, 115 gr, I would recommend against its use until this gets sorted out.

 

Unlike the actors in the above mentioned thread - if you can't unjam the gun, take it to a qualified gunsmith. Please treat it as if the round is live, but if it is a round with no flash hole, for all intents and purposes the round is inert.

 

At this point there is nothing official from Winchester. If there is something forthcoming this should be added to the recall sticky.

 

Be careful out there.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Any lot # ranges? I have a bit of the Win White Box 115 that I bought late last year early this year.

Its not just in Pa.

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/39152-back-from-area-8-match/

See link for what Maks saw in Va.

 

Same problem. Seems like the common denominator is WWB an Walmart.

Does Winchester make special runs to satisfy Walmart buys?

Does Winchester make special runs to satisfy Walmart buys?

 

As far as I know they do not. However, it is generally the "big box" stores that buy huge quantities of the Value Pack ammunition. Winchester may have a minimum order of Value Pack that puts it out of reach of smaller gun stores. I have seen Value Pack 9mm at Bass Pro Shops also.

Saw this first hand with Mike Hughes of Top Shot. All the way in Fredericksburg VA.

 

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So what does someone like me do? I just picked up 2 boxes of wwb value pack at the Walmart in suffern. Of course they have a no return policy on ammo. So I have to set those boxes aside until Winchester realizes there's a problem and issues a recall? Should we all be calling Winchester to inquire?

 

MC

Had a dud and a squib load from Winchester white box 40sw. This doesn't surprise me. I stopped using Winchester handgun ammo at that point. Haven't had a problem with there shotgun or rifle ammo yet

New ammo laws coming into effect, WWB is just getting ahead of the game... new regulations that replaces flash holes with solid brass, yet ammo is still freely available so it is not an outright ban.

So what does someone like me do? I just picked up 2 boxes of wwb value pack at the Walmart in suffern. Of course they have a no return policy on ammo. So I have to set those boxes aside until Winchester realizes there's a problem and issues a recall? Should we all be calling Winchester to inquire?

 

MC

 

Don't know if they'll respond, but I'd contact Winchester and see if the are aware of/admit to the problem and if so if they know lot numbers. All you can do at this time. Or shoot it and take the chance of ruining a range session. It probably is not harmful to the firearm, but according to some reports it can take a great deal of force to get the slide unlocked.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

For range will be ok, for matches, absolutely not. Does take a bit of force to get the whole round out.

 

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Pinned until this gets sorted out.

I bought mine at cabelas and don't think it's a value pack but I'll be checking.

The shooter that reported one of the incidents was using ammo from two boxes - one newer than the other and is not sure from which box the flash-holeless rounds came. FWIW, here are the lot numbers (he siad these were embossed - not printed - on an interior flap) of the two boxes:

 

Older box - YK52

Newer box - FG11

 

Be aware that there is no indication that these are the only lot numbers involved, we just know that these are suspect. Olin (the manufacturer of WWB) sent a call tag within 24 hours for the suspect ammo, so they are taking this seriously and are apparently aware of the situation. We just have no idea how widespread it is or how many lot numbers are involved.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Damn, reloads blow up your gun AND factory ammo? That's crazy.

Of course I just ordered five value packs of these from Cabelas...

Of course I just ordered five value packs of these from Cabelas...

I've bought 6 boxes in a upstate NY Walmart and have gone through 3 so far without incident.

Ok, now that I am finally back at home, I can further explain. I was planning on splitting the Area 8 post, but this was great.

 

YES.... there is an issue.

 

Mike Hughes, from the top shot fame, had to use Winchester White Box 100 round boxes from the local Walmart in Virginia. On one of the stages.... bang bang bang bang death jam.

 

Death jam like no other to the point that he stopped himself shooting. It was in a Glock 19. Tried the standard hang to slide and smack the frame.... no luck after about 10 tries and a hand in pain. If you know Mike Hughes, you know he is not exactly weak.

 

We finally got the gun open by pressing the slide against frame against a wall.... when it came out... the complete round was stuffed in the barrel. There was no primer to be found.

 

Further on we looked at the round and saw that there was no flash hole in it. In turn, when the primer went bang, it made the whole round a projectile and got lodged in the barrel. When we had the slide locked back, had to use a cleaning rod to push the round back through the muzzle end.

 

Mike mentioned he was going to contact Winchester about it, this was August 8th or 9th.

 

If you are not comfortable with it, contact Winchester and get replacement stuff. In any case, contact them and check the lot numbers.

 

Btw, this was 100 round Value boxes.

"In turn, when the primer went bang, it made the whole round a projectile and got lodged in the barrel."

 

Are you saying the casing went passed the headspacing rim and into the rifling?

It was jammed in there... The brass was forced crimped into bullet on one side, and pushed back on another. Did not go too far if any into the rifling. I wish I took a photo.

 

Primer went bang and blew out of the round.

Its not just in Pa.

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/39152-back-from-area-8-match/

See link for what Maks saw in Va.

 

Same problem. Seems like the common denominator is WWB an Walmart.

Does Winchester make special runs to satisfy Walmart buys?

 

Not that I know of. However, they buy enough that when production is hammered and the timing is right, they can consume most if not all of a production run. Depends on how back ordered they get. Also wwb gets farmed out to subcontractors when production is slammed for extended periods. Previous shortages, S&b was making large amounts of wwb. If they just brought a sub online, all the initial production could be sucked up by the big boxes.

Not that I know of. However, they buy enough that when production is hammered and the timing is right, they can consume most if not all of a production run. Depends on how back ordered they get. Also wwb gets farmed out to subcontractors when production is slammed for extended periods. Previous shortages, S&b was making large amounts of wwb. If they just brought a sub online, all the initial production could be sucked up by the big boxes.

 

Wow Matt, did not know that Winchester farmed out to S&B, you would figure Olin would be able to cover the demand within their business units. Where is S&B based out of?

Wow Matt, did not know that Winchester farmed out to S&B, you would figure Olin would be able to cover the demand within their business units. Where is S&B based out of?

 

http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/

I wish I took a photo.

 

From the PAFOA thread...

 

 

...note the case mouth where it was forced into the lead.

 

Wow Matt, did not know that Winchester farmed out to S&B, you would figure Olin would be able to cover the demand within their business units. Where is S&B based out of?

 

Usually they can, but when the hoarders get going AND there are ginormous military and federal leo orders in the pipeline, the entire us ammo manufacturing infrastructure can, and gas, become saturated.

 

Hell last time it got really bad, S&b was making some of the wwb, and fiocci shipments were put on hold because they us companies were buying their components at a premium for 5.56 and 9mm. Precision delta was making nothing but 9mm and selling it all to manufacturers, AND running their gear past maximum service intervals to keep up.

New ammo laws coming into effect, WWB is just getting ahead of the game... new regulations that replaces flash holes with solid brass, yet ammo is still freely available so it is not an outright ban.

 

What 'new' ammo laws?

 

Oh, this is a joke......haha

Damn, reloads blow up your gun AND factory ammo? That's crazy.

 

Just shows how unfounded your distrust of reloads is!

I checked the thread on PAFOA. The 2 boxes that I picked up at Walmart in Suffern have a different lot number, and what's stamped on the bottom of the casing is even different from what's pictured in the PAFOA thread.

 

I'm thinking of shooting them tomorrow...

 

MC

I checked the thread on PAFOA. The 2 boxes that I picked up at Walmart in Suffern have a different lot number, and what's stamped on the bottom of the casing is even different from what's pictured in the PAFOA thread.

 

I'm thinking of shooting them tomorrow...

 

MC

 

I would shoot them in the mail right back to winchester.

How the eff does winchester allow this to happen? Is this foreign-made ammo?

How the eff does winchester allow this to happen? Is this foreign-made ammo?

 

Ray ray, it happens. No one is mistake free.

 

Want guarantees or more assurances... load your own ammo properly including a powder cop die that will stop you if you have too much or too little powder, then check every round.

 

however, in this particular case... if you used brass to reload, this WOULD NOT happen to a reloader, as the resize/deprime process would stop you if there was no flash hole.

 

Was talking to jim norman about this, and found out that in a few cases, brand new cases would not have a flash hole.