I hear a lot that the M4 DI Gas system rifle is substandard and not reliable enough for our armed forces. I also hear that it's 5.56 caliber is lacking in regards to stopping power. I'm curious as to what YOU my fellow NJGFer's would recommend and like to see what they use as a main battle rifle. What options would you want on it, what caliber, optics, rails, sights or whatever else do you think should be on it?

I would start with a bigger round as a lot of friends coming back from overseas talk about a lack of stopping power with current 5.56...but as long as NATO still makes decisions we will be stuck with 5.56 and 7.62 for supply and compatability reasons. New metal coatings which reduce fouling and cleaning issues is another good direction. Most of all the soldiers in the field should be consulted as to which accessories/ ergonomics are needed. I would love to know what happened to that gun they were testing with the caseless ammo.This link is a wiki page detailing the military's recent rifle competition.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Carbine#section_1

 

 

I remember that several years ago. The G11... Forgot all about it till you reminded me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G11

 

 

I would start with a bigger round as a lot of friends coming back from overseas talk about a lack of stopping power with current 5.56...but as long as NATO still makes decisions we will be stuck with 5.56 and 7.62 for supply and compatability reasons. New metal coatings which reduce fouling and cleaning issues is another good direction. Most of all the soldiers in the field should be consulted as to which accessories/ ergonomics are needed. I would love to know what happened to that gun they were testing with the caseless ammo.This link is a wiki page detailing the military's recent rifle competition.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Carbine#section_1

 

 

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How about the AK-103 ...

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/AK-103.JPG

 

Just kidding.......

FN SCAR 16s for the 5.56 and a SCAR 17s for the 7.62x51!

if I can only have one, then I'd prob take the 17s.

 

...luckily, I have BOTH!

FN SCAR 16s for the 5.56 and a SCAR 17s for the 7.62x51!

if I can only have one, then I'd prob take the 17s.

 

...luckily, I have BOTH!

Yes you are a lucky you know what..just get an HK416 for the trifecta

I'm building my first 300 Blackout AR. I like what I have read and am jonesin' to shoot it. Only issue I am worried about is the price of the ammo.

I think majority of this forum should worry more about how physically fit they are before they worry about "battle rifles" and SHTF scenarios.

 

you can have the best gear but it aiint gonna do you any good when your fat ass cant run more than 20 yards normally, not to mention with some heavy ass gear on.

 

 

best "battle" rifle for your average joe in my opinion would be a 14.5" LW AR15 or a CX4 carbine in .45

I think majority of this forum should worry more about how physically fit they are before they worry about "battle rifles" and SHTF scenarios.

 

you can have the best gear but it aiint gonna do you any good when your fat ass cant run more than 20 yards normally, not to mention with some heavy ass gear on.

 

hmmm.....are u calling the NJGF members fat??

I'm building my first 300 Blackout AR.

 

that is in my future when we get our ZED lowers.

I think the Russian AN-94 had the ticket. First two shots are out of the barrel in a mega tight group before you even feel the recoil impulse. This puts a super high probability of two rounds hitting the same target. After that if you want FA, the gun cycles down to a manageable RPM. You get the best of both worlds, carrying lots of lighter ammo with FA option for suppressive fire, yet with increased first shot damage since two rounds will be nearly one-holing when used in aimed SA mode.

 

So yea, would be cool if we could make a rifle based on this concept. I think the Russians only use it in limited deployment for special units due to higher manufacturing costs, so it may be the limiting factor, but man when I see the price of those SCAR's I can't help to think "why not".

mr762A1

http://www.hk-usa.co...762_general.asp

 

5.56 is a small round, and I've heard a lot about its lack of stopping power. I've never been in combat, never shot anyone with anything bigger than .177 out of my Crosman 760, so I can't say. However, I have carried loads of different calibers and the weight difference between 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO is significant. A major concern for our ground pounders is how heavy their rucks are getting. The load is so significant they are evaluating "exo-skeleton" systems to assist soldiers in carrying all their crap.

Looking at calibers, it comes down to quantity vs. "stopping power". Last year the GAO reported that 250,000 rounds were fired in Iraq for every enemy killed.

that is in my future when we get our ZED lowers.

 

I have about half of the parts I need at this point, upper, lower, stock, etc. All that is left for me to decide is the handguard/rail (either YHM Rifle Length Diamond Forearm or a Midwest Industries Rifle Length Gen2 Two Piece Free Float Handguard) and I'm 90% sure it will be a Black Hole Weaponry polygonal rifled 18" barrel with a midlength gas system. And the last issue is the glass, I have my heart set on a Leupold 1.5-5x20 Mark 4 MR/T 30mm Riflescope with a 300 Blackout reticle (Leupold 113594) but at almost $1400 it may be a while before I can afford it.

XCR-L in 6.8 SPC

 

or a completly new rifle designed around A.R.G.O

As long as we're feeding pipe dreams I say we say "eff the Hague, we're using expanding ammo now!"

As long as we're feeding pipe dreams I say we say "eff the Hague, we're using expanding ammo now!"

 

pipe dreams? i think NOT!

Ray Ray,

 

BLUF - M16 family of weapons has worked well for almost 50 years now and has killed more people than AIDS and Cancer combined.

 

I think you have heard a lot of anecdotal evidence about the M4/AR-15 family of weapons that just flat out isn't true. The fact is a quality M4 (Noveske, BCM, Colt, LMT) built the the Mil-Spec TDP or greater with quality magazines, components/accessories and ammo is a different story than the AR built in the garage with parts bought at the local gunshot bins and outfitted with the latest and greatest from the Cheaper Than Dirt catalog.

 

The M4 with proper maintenance at all levels is extremely reliable and has been for some time. Keep in mind that anything created by man can and will fail. When talking about firearms it is hard to pinpoint the cause: Bad product off the assembly line, improper use of the weapon or use outside of its spec'd limitations, bad QC/QA with ammo, bad magazines, the 'parts is parts' mentality of the WECSOG franken-gun builders, improper or no preventative maintenance, bad gauge from so-called subject matter experts, and my favorite - myths that have become larger than life and are now accepted as gospel truth even though they are patently false.

 

Look at what the SF guys in most countries are carrying as a primary issued assault weapon. Yup, that's right, it's generally an M4 class weapon - slowly moving to a piston driven 416 type M4.

 

While I have no problem with the DI, I am digging the way the Piston market is moving with the AR and SCAR variants. That being said, at this stage I still don't trust it as much as a DI M4 platform. I have seen quite a few of them fail firsthand and the maintenance at the level I am capable of is expensive and limited.

 

When talking about the ammo and "stopping power" you are going to need to define that phrase a little better for me. Are we talking the ability to stop an assailant/enemy with less shots? If that is what you are looking for then that is more a function of shot placement than caliber until you get silly and start advocating .50 BMG weapons for HD, line troops, and cops. If you are talking about bigger bullets for the sake of bigger bullets, then you have to accept the weight penalty and reduced load out that accompanies it, as well as costs and supply/logistics problems. Modern soft-nose bonded 5.56x45 in the 60-75gr range out of a 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 barrel is lethal round that is good enough for most of us. A lot of people all over this world have been put into the ground because of the 5.56x45 round.

 

So, to answer your question, a USGI M4 with an Aimoint RDS and 3x, white light, quality mags and slings, Slip 2000 EWL, enough spare parts to follow the preventative maintenance schedule, and training training training in marksmanship, mindset, manipulations, and diagnostics/maintenance to go with it.

As long as we're feeding pipe dreams I say we say "eff the Hague, we're using expanding ammo now!"

 

I got rid of all my 7.62X39 corrosive Commie ball and replaced it with Non-corrosive Commie soft point.

 

In 5.56 I still maintain Ball Ammo.

high exposure, I wasn't saying we need a new battle rifle. I'm just curious as to what's on the horizon and what others think. Thanks for the interesting read though.

Screw the AR platform, go for a M14. Proven design, stopping power and high range capabilities. From someone that has carried one through the butthole of the world(recently not in Vietnam), a 16 based platform lacks reliability and and the 556 lacks stopping power. Just sayin from personal experience there is no use for the Mattel rifle any more. There is a reason they are pulling 14's out of Govt stores and issuing them in Afghan. The 16 just plainly isn't cutting it, and the 14 does everything you want it to do and some.

This is close enough for me.

 

Screw the AR platform, go for a M14. Proven design, stopping power and high range capabilities. From someone that has carried one through the butthole of the world(recently not in Vietnam), a 16 based platform lacks reliability and and the 556 lacks stopping power. Just sayin from personal experience there is no use for the Mattel rifle any more. There is a reason they are pulling 14's out of Govt stores and issuing them in Afghan. The 16 just plainly isn't cutting it, and the 14 does everything you want it to do and some.

 

 

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This is close enough for me.

 

12 pounds? Yikes

That's why her name is 'Thee Battle Axe'....

The weight is nothing with the right sling. Nor is it a problem for me without a sling.

Hit the weight bench awhile. It will seem like a slice of pizza after awhile... Lol..

Needless to say, run out of ammo? Hack the bastoids to death with it. Hence....

 

Meet My Battle Axe...

She's a Fine Gal, But She Can Be A Real B*tch!

 

 

 

12 pounds? Yikes

 

 

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That's why her name is 'Thee Battle Axe'....

The weight is nothing with the right sling. Nor is it a problem for me without a sling.

Hit the weight bench awhile. It will seem like a slice of pizza after awhile... Lol..

Needless to say, run out of ammo? Hack the bastoids to death with it. Hence....

Meet My Battle Axe...

She's a Fine Gal, But She Can Be A Real ****!

 

It's too heavy. And you can lift weights till you turn blue and it is still a 12 pound rifle. I'll tell you what, shoot a rifle course with it and I will bet you'll be exhausted after the first hour. I'm not even counting the extra magazines that weigh probably close to pound each, maybe more.

I don't get why weight is such an issue for people. You are not lugging it around for hours on end like the military does. I do tours with fully loaded 870's and all my regular gear. No issues. A little workout goes a long way

In most cases, you'll be tuckered anyway especially under stress. That's why there is endurance training. But I didn't think this post was about competition run and gun...

 

 

It's too heavy. And you can lift weights till you turn blue and it is still a 12 pound rifle. I'll tell you what, shoot a rifle course with it and I will bet you'll be exhausted after the first hour. I'm not even counting the extra magazines that weigh probably close to pound each, maybe more.

 

 

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I just had to go back and re- read the title of this thread... Battle Rifle...

Not run and gun... Hopefully, our definition if it ever comes to it, won't be clearing buildings, hunting down terrorists, etc.

It will be doing what you like to do Ray... Shooting Zombies... No run and gun needed. Get to a high point or run hopefully only short distances to the next safe zone before they snack on your gray matter. Hehe...

Then look for supplies like in that tv show Walking Dead and butt smack their skulls to save ammo. 12lbs be good for that.

 

 

 

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