What you are advocating is often called an Israeli Carry. IIRC this method of carry was adopted because local armories in Israel would have a mix of handguns. HPs, P38s, Berettas, Helwans, Lugers, and whatever had been acquired. It was easier to train people to carry in Condition 3 (full mag) and rack the slide as this worked with any semi auto. Yeah it takes less than a second but... The problem with this is when you are in a confrontational situation you want to minimize what you have to do. Even on the range I have seen people forget to sweep off the safety when they knew they were going to fire. This is one of the arguments I heard against semi autos in the 70s and 80s. This is why SIG,Ruger, and others offer guns with a hammer drop only no safety. Simplicity is what makes a DA revolver or striker fired semi like a Glock so appealing. Safe when ready to go. Its easy to get wrapped up in "the Israelis do it" as they do many things well. Carrying a defensive pistol in Condition 3 is not one of them. Think of a duel. While you are racking your slide I'm shooting. Most of the time in a defensive situation the bad guy already has his gun out. You'd only be giving him more of an edge.

 

Griz is 100% correct....While I wont say "Absolutely Don't Do this" understand that if you want to go with Condition 3 carry then you need to train EXTENSIVELY. there were reasons for the Israelis to do this...those reasons are IMO Negated for the conditions we operate under here.

 

As for the Topic itself, i had an entire bucket of Set-back .40 rounds from my Dept from guys unloading and chambering the same round for months at a time. I also have a couple of .45 HP rounds that are the same way because they hung up on the feed ramp instead of feeding smoothly.

you can have issues with "hardening" or "deadening" your primer,

 

In all my years of reloading I've never heard or read of either scenario relating to primers. Primers cups are brass (70% copper, 30% zinc,) and sometimes the cup is nickel-plated for corrosion resistance; the anvil inside is brass. Brass cannot be hardened unless it is work-hardened, which would consist of a strenuous drawing of the brass by expanding and contracting it. Resizing work-hardens brass to the point of brittleness. Annealing, through heat, softens it. I would have my doubts that repeated chambering of a live round could work-harden a primer cup. I just don't see how that can happen. If the primer is seated to the proper depth, .005" below flush (below the face of the cartridge base,) it would never be subjected to any abuse that would work-harden it. Primers are both durable and extremely stable. In addition to ignition, they serve as the cartridge's gas seal.

 

If you have a link or info to point to about this I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks

Set backs , set backs, set backs....

 

I unchamber and chamber a round on two pistols about once a month maybe more. I ease the slide down and don't drop it from open lock.

 

No set backs here. There's no reason to drop the slide from open lock on most pistols. Anyway dropping from open lock make my dogs bark.

 

 

In all my years of reloading I've never heard or read of either scenario relating to primers. Primers cups are brass (70% copper, 30% zinc,) and sometimes the cup is nickel-plated for corrosion resistance; the anvil inside is brass. Brass cannot be hardened unless it is work-hardened, which would consist of a strenuous drawing of the brass by expanding and contracting it. Resizing work-hardens brass to the point of brittleness. Annealing, through heat, softens it. I would have my doubts that repeated chambering of a live round could work-harden a primer cup. I just don't see how that can happen. If the primer is seated to the proper depth, .005" below flush (below the face of the cartridge base,) it would never be subjected to any abuse that would work-harden it. Primers are both durable and extremely stable. In addition to ignition, they serve as the cartridge's gas seal.

 

If you have a link or info to point to about this I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks

 

I agree that "hardening" is a poor choice of words for it, but that is how it was described to me. It doesn't refer to the hardness of the metal in the primer per se, more to how it may be difficult/hard to detonate when struck by a firing pin. I know the US Army did a study around 1965 on the topic, but I can not find a link to the article right now. The determied that after so many chamberings (I forget how many) you incresed the risk of experiencing either a slamfire or a FTF by a significant margin. I also know a couple of people who had FTF in Iraq and Afghanistan that was directly related to this phenomenon and the fact that they have to constanltly load and clear weapons as they move around the base, sometimes as many as 8 times a day depending to their operational tempo.

 

The following is an article (I bolded/underlined/etc... the pertinant section, but the entire piece is a good read so I left it uncut) from Dr Gary Roberts, a well known and respected expert in the field of Ballistics and Ammunition, and a California SWAT cop:

 

Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old M16A1 than with some guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of agency duty ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in 5.56 mm/.223:

 

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For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. Other acceptable 5.56 mm loadings for 1/9 twist barrels include the Speer 55 and 62 gr Gold Dot JSP's; the Federal 5.56 mm 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1) is also a potential option. Note that these are all true 5.56 mm loads that require a real milspec 5.56 mm chamber, not a SAAMI .223 chamber--be sure to check with an appropriate gauge or reamer. Most other acceptable LE barrier blind loadings are at .223 pressures, including the .223 55 & 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1 & LE223T3), along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr bonded JSP, .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), and the .223 Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP). The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT is also good choice, but usually requires a 1/7 twist. Note that the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off; this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration. If running 1/12 twist barrels, stick with the BH 50 gr TSX, Fed 55 gr TBBC, Speer 55 gr Gold Dot, or Fed 55 gr TSX. NONE of the fragmenting 5.56 mm OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. Contrary to what many believe, M193 & M855 FMJ are not very good against glass; the best military 5.56 mm load against glass is 52 gr M995 AP, followed by the 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 OTM and 70 gr Optimal "brown tip" OTM.

 

In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries or long range shots in open conditions, then OTM, JHP, and standard JSP loads can offer acceptable performance. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however while capable of shooting out to 600, it is optimized for 200 and under. If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), the Federal 64 gr TRU (T223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. Again it is critical to keep in mind that the above loads fail to offer adequate penetration through intermediate barriers.

 

For longer range engagements using precision weapons like the Mk12 SPR or DMR rifles with faster 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrels, one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings are a good choice: the Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N) using the OTM bullet w/cannelure, Nosler 77 gr OTM, or the Sierra 77 gr Match King OTM (Mk262 Mod1).

 

Short barreled 5.56 mm weapons, such as the Colt Commando, Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc… offer advantages in confined spaces. With SBR’s it is best to stick with the barrier blind loads recommended above, although the heavy OTM's suggested for long distance shooting will also work. SBR's can run into rotational velocity issues with some loads, so it is generally best to select faster 1/7 twist barrels whenever possible. Remember, with SBR’s, effective engagement distances are significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

 

Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift.

 

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in LE training courses. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

 

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S. Also be cautions of leaving a round in a very hot chamber; besides the obvious danger of a cook-off, the powder can also be damaged by the heat, leading to dramatically increased pressures when the round is eventually fired.

 

A large SWAT team in this area had a failure to fire from an M4 with Hornady TAP ammo during an entry--fortunately no officers were hurt and the suspect immediately threw down his weapon when the carbine went click instead of bang. After the incident was concluded, the team went to the range and expended the rest of their carbine ammo and had one additional failure to fire. This same team had 3 Hornady TAP rounds fail to fire in training a couple of years ago. When Pat Rogers was teaching a class at a nearby agency, there were 5 failures to fire using Hornady TAP ammo. In all 10 cases, there appeared to be good primer strikes, but no rounds fired. On analysis, the ammunition had powder and checked out otherwise.

 

 

 

However, despite what appeared to be good primer strikes, two problems were discovered. First, when accurately measured, some of the primer strikes had insufficient firing pin indentations. The failed round from the potential OIS incident had a primer strike of only .013"—the minimum firing pin indent for ignition is .017". In addition, the primers on the other rounds were discovered to have been damaged from repeated chambering. When the same cartridge is repeatedly chambered in the AR15, the floating firing pin lightly taps the primer; with repeated taps, the primer compound gets crushed, resulting in inadequate ignition characteristics--despite what appears to be a normal firing pin impression. Once a round has been chambered, DO NOT RE-CHAMBER IT for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL!!!

 

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Many LE agencies around here use the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Winchester 64 gr JSP (it has been on the state contract for very low cost), and similar Fed 64 gr JSP TRU load (223L)--all have worked well in actual officer involved shootings against unobstructed targets. However in the wake of the serious terminal performance failures by non-bonded .223 64 gr JSP's due to inadequate penetration into the criminal's Toyota Tundra truck in the July 2010 CHP OIS incident in Oakland, quite a few agencies here have been switching to general issue of Barrier Blind loads like the 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot loads, along with the 55 & 62 gr TBBC loads that previously saw more limited use.

 

Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. Despite the ballistic compromise, for LE urban work with lots of entries, the 10.5-11.5” BCM, Colt, DD, LMT Mk18/Commando style weapons w/Aimpoint RDS's are the best weapon types for this mission. For GP LE Patrol use, properly built AR15's like the 14.5-16” BCM, Colt, DD, or LMT carbines with Aimpoint RDS's and 3x magnifiers in quick detach flip mounts like the LaRue LT649 are superb choices (quality variable optics like a S&B 1.1-4x Short Dot, NF 1.1-4x, or Trijicon 1-4x are also good options) -- pick the right tool for the job.

 

Based on my respect for Doc Roberts and his advice, the stories I have heard of ts happening in combat, and the fact that a replacing the chambered round will set me back $.12-$.45 (and my life is way more valuable than that), I discard all chambered ammo to the training stash and load with a fresh round in all weapons used for self defense/duty.

Light firing pin strikes that fail to detonate can be attributed to the weapon's hammer, firing pin, headspace or the primer. Priming compound does not detonate unless the primer strike is sufficient to indent the cup face enough to strike the anvil and crush the compound between those two surfaces. Floating firing pins will always leave a slight evidence of a tap for every instance the round is chambered. DocGKR's assertion that repeated light strikes from chambering will damage the priming compound over time is a bit speculative and assumptive; not scientific. In theory, it sounds plausible, but I've never read or heard of a test where chambering "taps" that indent the cup face cause primer compound breakdown. Improper seating of primers too deep that could "crush" the primer and pulverize the priming mixture where it cannot be compressed when struck by a firing pin will result in no detonation. When you have to adhere to thousands of an inch in seating depth tolerances, it's easy to be off if something goes awry in the assembly process.

 

In the case that Dr. Roberts presents, the problem can be isolated to just that batch of Hornady ammo or the primers used, not necessarily all 5.56 ammo or primers in general. But there is nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution when your life is on the line. (Thanks for the read!)

 

PS - Dr. Roberts is a dentist/facial surgeon first, wound ballistic expert, and then reserve LEO/training officer. Quite a list of credentials.

Set backs , set backs, set backs....

 

I unchamber and chamber a round on two pistols about once a month maybe more. I ease the slide down and don't drop it from open lock.

 

No set backs here. There's no reason to drop the slide from open lock on most pistols. Anyway dropping from open lock make my dogs bark.

 

There are a lot of pistols that wont go fully into battery if you ease the slide down..remember they are DESIGNED to function with the full force of the recoil spring. JMO