You can't defend your stuff in NJ. You can respond to threats of injury or death. There are specific immunities inside your home, outside of your home you're at the mercy of a prosecutor.

 

Sorry, in a state of emergency following a natural disaster such as this, all bets are off, my things that I purchased and prepared for in advance to sustain myself and my family are equal to my life! If some dirtbag tried to cart off my generator or steal our food stores or gas cans when the power will be out for two to three or more weeks he might as well put a knife to my wife's throat, he's going down, end of story. I have nothing worth risking your life to steal and I will give up nothing that will risk my family's lives if taken.

Really guys? I have no rights to defend my family or property?

 

No right to defend yourself outside your home. No right to defend your property outside or inside your home. The only time you can legally defend your life/families life is inside your home and only if your life is being threatened.

 

 

No right to defend yourself outside your home. No right to defend your property outside or inside your home. The only time you can legally defend your life/families life is inside your home and only if your life is being threatened.

 

Well based on this I'm surprised crime isn't higher. Someone can walk up take my stuff and all I can do is wave goodbye?

Well based on this I'm surprised crime isn't higher. Someone can walk up take my stuff and all I can do is wave goodbye?

 

Yet:

 

NEW JERSEY STATE CONSTITUTION 1947

(UPDATED THROUGH AMENDMENTS ADOPTED IN NOVEMBER, 2011)

A Constitution agreed upon by the delegates of the people of New Jersey, in Convention, begun at Rutgers University, the State University of New Jersey, in New Brunswick, on the twelfth day of June, and continued to the tenth day of September, in the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and forty-seven.

 

We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

 

ARTICLE I

RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES

 

1. All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain natural and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.

 

I'll take my chances with the jury!

Attorney General: No reports of looting in N.J. after Sandy, additional security in place

 

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/10/attorney_general_no_reports_of.html

 

WEST TRENTON — State Attorney General Jeffrey Chiesa said this evening there have been no reports of looting in New Jersey, but plans are in place – including additional security in some towns – to prevent crime as a result of Hurricane Sandy.

 

“We have been in contact with all the county prosecutors to make sure they have the resources they need from us,” Chiesa said at a news conference with Gov. Chris Christie at the State Police Regional Operations Intelligence Center.

 

“We’re helping tonight in certain counties where they are worried about securing some of the towns,” Chiesa said.

 

The attorney general said the presence of the National Guard in some places was also providing communities with additional eyes to keep watch on store fronts and other sensitive locations that remain closed because they do not have power.

 

“We’ll continue to monitor it,” Chiesa said.

 

Earlier in the day, Seaside Heights Police Chief Thomas Boyd said some people broke into a convenience store because they ran out of food. Police officers who were trapped at the height of the storm also broke into an A&P for food and shelter, according to Toms River Police Chief Michael Mastronardy.

 

Maybe it is just the timing of the article - as there are other articles on NJ.com stating looting is happening at a number of places in broad daylight.

 

Sad to see that even in these difficult times when people need to pull together, we're seeing some individuals take advantage of the situation and others.

 

TheWombat

Reminds me of one of the last scenes in Animal House when the parade has totally gone out of control...Kevin Bacon, "Remain calm, all is well here"....and then trampled by the fleeing crowd.

I'm gonna follow the same principles outside my home (but still on my property) that I would use inside my home. If I have the time... no immediate threat...

 

Assure that GF is secure, prepped and armed. Call 911. Report the important stuff (name, address, description of crime/persons involved if possible.) Leave line open, drop phone on floor/leave it with her (it's go time... need hands free).

 

Warning #1: The Bandit (my dog of war). He's big and loud and protective of his pack. If you ignore him... you most likely have malicious intent. Warning #2: Loudly, verbally, warn intruders that I'm armed. Immediately follow with warning #3: Chamber a round.

 

If those warnings are continually ignored... safety off, game on.

 

Of course, this is a general plan all dependent on the proximity to the threat, and the crime being committed. If someone's breaking into my car... I'm it's a safe bet that I won't escalate to deadly force. (It might be an inconvenience, but I have insurance. And could probably use a new car anyway. ) If someone's coming after me or my girlfriend... I'm skipping all the other stuff and will worry about the repercussions later.

Wife asked the same thing.. i told her not only is it loaded it doubles as a flashlight lmao... tlr1-hp on a Mossberg 590sp lmao. Had a couple break-ins in my area since the powet outage and since our phones dont work 100% 911 isn't practical anymore.

 

Is it ever practical to rely on 911? Even with a 2 minute response, you're still on your own for 2 full minutes. Hell, a football game is just getting started with 2 minutes to go...

 

A friend of mine was car jacked at gun point in Belleville area Tuesday noon and looting at a seven eleven in union yesterday early morning as well.

I wonder what "justifiable need" the car jacker used on his ccw application for approval, must be for career purposes. Please NJ I want to be able to defend my family especially in times like this, why is it so difficult for a law abiding citizen to carry? The crimals know we are just easy Pickens.

 

^^^ This. I listened to the oral arguments from Woolard yesterday (4th Circuit case challenging MD "good and substantial need" provision of their carry law) and the MD attorney made a completely asinine argument that you are not carrying for self defense if you don't have a threat that you can articulate. I bet the guy who was car jacked above wasn't under a threat that he had prior knowledge of.

 

Assure that GF is secure, prepped and armed. Call 911. Report the important stuff (name, address, description of crime/persons involved if possible.) Leave line open, drop phone on floor/leave it with her (it's go time... need hands free).

 

Warning #1: The Bandit (my dog of war). He's big and loud and protective of his pack. If you ignore him... you most likely have malicious intent. Warning #2: Loudly, verbally, warn intruders that I'm armed. Immediately follow with warning #3: Chamber a round.

 

If those warnings are continually ignored... safety off, game on.

 

So your plan is to lie to the intruder? I submit that if have a gun without a round in the chamber, you are not armed, and if you have an empty gun with the safety on, you are giving the intruder an unfair advantage.

 

I'd suggest you rethink that plan a little. Calling 911 is great. Leaving the line open is also great, since the incident is likely going to be recorded. But your firearm should be loaded and ready to go the moment you pick it up. Expecting that a bad guy is going to just leave because he heard you rack a 12 gauge (or whatever you have) is naive.

Belleville...car jacking?

 

Just a normal day. Growing up in Belleville, having car-jackings is nothing new when you have all the scum from North Newark a short walk / bike ride / single fare bus trip away.

 

Shotgun has a bean-bag round chambered, but will quickly be pumped for a 00 round if need be. The AR is in cruiser ready and any of my Sig pistols have one in the pipe. In the yard and farting around the house I have a pistol. IF I feel a threat is near, I always go for a long gun. Pistols are there for malfunctions or to fight your way to your long gun.

So friends of mine updated me with this: Sea Girt / Asbury - looting and gasoline siphoning started last night... one is a boro works employee in Sea Girt that reported it.

Another friend of mine had neighbors who's gas was siphoned out of their gas tanks last night in Belford/Port Monmouth area.

 

Stay Alert People!

Shotgun has a bean-bag round chambered, but will quickly be pumped for a 00 round if need be.

 

How is that with regards to legality? I don't mean is it legal to have bean-bag rounds, I mean if you have to use it. Aren't you only legally allowed to fire if your life is in jeopardy and, if so, why would you want to use an inferior projectile first? Unless I'm missing something, I don't see the benefit.

There is not tactical benefit, it is a safety benefit and I will leave it at that. Guess you missed the part about chambering a lethal round if needed. That bean bag will hit the floor if I feel a threat.

There is not tactical benefit, it is a safety benefit and I will leave it at that. Guess you missed the part about chambering a lethal round if needed. That bean bag will hit the floor if I feel a threat.

 

No, I didn't miss the part about chambering a lethal round. That's why I asked the reasoning behind using an inferior projectile first.

 

What would the safety benefit be?

Really, don't lose sleep over this okay?

when i went to bed i had a 50 in the wallet. when i woke up i have 2 20's and a 5.. i think my wife looted me already.

Really, don't lose sleep over this okay?

 

Why can't anybody just answer a simple f'ing question today?

 

How is anybody supposed to learn anything if everybody either gets an attitude or has to be super-secret about answers when somebody asks a question?

Phones are out. I'm dialing 1-800 MOSSBERG. I'be been through too many of these emergencies to think that ALL people are rational and or humble.

 

A simple answer Sir is, you will know what to do. This may become worse before it gets better.

 

Godspeed.

So your plan is to lie to the intruder? I submit that if have a gun without a round in the chamber, you are not armed, and if you have an empty gun with the safety on, you are giving the intruder an unfair advantage.

 

 

I'm terribly sorry that my plan doesn't meet your approval. Do we even know each other? Do you know the layout of my house or my circumstances?

 

The cold hard fact is that due to this such things as the layout of my house, more than one guns within pretty easy reach and my big over-protective dog... I most certainly have time to chamber a round before an intruder even begins to head upstairs to my bedrooms. Heck... I'm pretty sure I have time even if the intruder is Usain Bolt.

 

And who said anything about hoping/letting the intruder leave? If he/she does leave, great... the cops can handle it. If they don't... I'm ready.

 

And... since you brought up naive... who says all I have is one gun?

 

Please continue playing semantics with the word "unarmed". I'm sure all the LEOs and lawyers and judges all see it your way.

 

Also... "inferior projectile"? Really? Just because it doesn't kill someone it's inferior. Have you ever even watched someone get hit with a beanbag round? Go youtube it. Maybe a taser is inferior too huh? Not knowing the man... but knowing how a pump shotgun works, I sure if Wojo unloaded a beanbag round into an intruder... he'd have PLENTY of time to cycle to the next should he need it. And I can see a safety benefit. What if there's others in his house and in the heat of the moment he doesn't know where they are? Maybe he lives in a duplex or apartment where overpenetration is an issue... and legal implications. Maybe the thought of killing someone isn't something he takes lightly. There's plenty of reasons.

 

I think people are answering your questions in the way they deserve to be answered. You're asking loaded questions geared to play toward what fits YOUR thinking as if we should all be asking you for how to do it right. Are you some super-secret-highspeed/low-drag-warrior that has any credentials saying that we should follow your tactical rulebook? Perhaps if learning is what you're after, you'd learn more, if you shat less on other people's info. There's better ways to ask questions...

Maybe people don't feel like dealing with your scrutiny today.

 

Take a step back and perhaps take a look at how you are addressing and criticizing each person and that might be an indicator as to people taking the approach to your questions. It seems that you are looking for arguements today. Just chill dude. Some of us have other things going on.

My brother is a cop down in Essex County said the car jacking incidents are going way up. It's like Mad Max everyone looking for gas.

Maybe people don't feel like dealing with your scrutiny today.

 

Take a step back and perhaps take a look at how you are addressing and criticizing each person and that might be an indicator as to people taking the approach to your questions. It seems that you are looking for arguements today. Just chill dude. Some of us have other things going on.

 

I'm not scrutinizing anyone. Especially you. I read your post, saw that you are an NRA instructor, and wondered what the thinking was behind using a bean-bag round. Everything that I've ever read/heard has said that a law abiding citizen should never fire warning shots or use less than lethal rounds because the only time he should pull the trigger is if his life is in danger, and if that is the case that he should fire the most effective round available. Because you put it out that you have the bean-bag round loaded first, I thought there might be a good reason.

 

Also... "inferior projectile"? Really? Just because it doesn't kill someone it's inferior. Have you ever even watched someone get hit with a beanbag round? Go youtube it. Maybe a taser is inferior too huh? Not knowing the man... but knowing how a pump shotgun works, I sure if Wojo unloaded a beanbag round into an intruder... he'd have PLENTY of time to cycle to the next should he need it. And I can see a safety benefit. What if there's others in his house and in the heat of the moment he doesn't know where they are? Maybe he lives in a duplex or apartment where overpenetration is an issue... and finally legal implications. There's plenty of reasons.

 

There is one really good reason not to use bean-bag rounds. http://www.americancowboychronicles.com/2012/07/brian-terry-used-bean-bags-against.html

 

And I asked about the legality of using a bean-bag round in a self defense case and why somebody would want to do that, given that we (non-LEO) are not supposed to shoot unless our lives are in jeopardy.

Have you been shot by a bean bag before? Theres a reason why 90% of the time it drops the assailant. Its kinda hard to be aggressive when you have a bruised sternum, or some cracked ribs and you can't breathe like you normally do.

 

But to counter that, I wouldn't use one soley on the note of civil liability. Could you imagine the law suit that'll be levied against you if you shoot to incapacitate? Or the Felony Assault charges? I mean, this is New Jersey we're talking about. And while it might look good to not kill, Prosecution is going to turn your reasoning into Swiss Cheese and brain wash the jury into believing you were going to torture the bad guy, who was just simply walking home.

I'll agree that shooting to wound is not a smart move. But as Wojo stated... it's only 1 beanbag round... lethal ammo follows. Not a compromise I would be uncomfortable with in his shoes. Heck.. even in my shoes.

 

As to that 1 good reason not to use bean-bag rounds... Unfortunately Brian Terry was a border agent tasked with protecting the borders. Most of those "opponents" were people just trying to come to America. There usually isn't a need to employ deadly force to turn people back at the border. Unfortunately, this time his opponents were heavily armed and not just looking to immigrate to America. At the time, beanbags were probably not deemed hazardous to the officers.

I'll agree that shooting to wound is not a smart move. But as Wojo stated... it's only 1 beanbag round... lethal ammo follows. Not a compromise I would be uncomfortable with in his shoes. Heck.. even in my shoes.

 

That's why I asked how that works from a legal perspective. As mgralley pointed out, there are a lot of legal issues on the "con" side of the pro-con equation for a non-LEO defending his home with any number of bean-bag rounds. I thought I might be missing a really good reason to consider that as an option.

 

As to that 1 good reason not to use bean-bag rounds... Unfortunately Brian Terry was a border agent tasked with protecting the borders. Most of those "opponents" were people just trying to come to America. There usually isn't a need to employ deadly force to turn people back at the border. Unfortunately, this time his opponents were heavily armed and not just looking to immigrate to America. At the time, beanbags were probably not deemed hazardous to the officers.

 

Believe me, I see the value in LEO using bean-bag rounds (tasers, etc) in specific circumstances, but only in their official capacity. When we start talking about the general population and self defense, the general rule is that you don't pull the trigger unless you are justified in using lethal force, and if you're justified in using lethal force, then why would you want to use a tool that is less than lethal?

 

 

I get that people are still a little torqued up from the storm, and I know that I can be a bit rough around the edges. I apologize for coming off as "know-it-all" or whatever, as that's not my intention. I will be more cognizant of my wording in the future.

Because this is NJ, and you have to be awfully careful what you type is the main jist of my being vague.

 

For one, I have a severe bear problem and the bears know enough if that if they hear a pump they start running and get out of bean bag range fast...so I am told. Also, in the advent of a ND, better a bean bag round first then lead if I am not the one handling the firearm. Mistakened ID happens.

 

If I suspect a perp, before my 590A1 is even shouldered, that bean bag round will be on the floor and some 00 will be in the pipe. Is this okay?

 

Also, what the NRA and other civilian based courses present, versus real world tactics / genuine tactical shooting are WORLDS apart. The safety liabilities would be endless. My USCG Boarding Party school taught things that would have the NRA educators having seizures with what we did with shotguns / M16's. As well as the NRA LE Development Schools I attended. If I 'share' some of these, some asshat is going to sue me if things go wrong.

 

Is this okay?

Wojo, I'm not looking to validate what you do, not by a long shot. I was just looking for more information to make my own decisions be a little more informed.

The local police have arrested over 100 people looting, nobody wants them so they are being released.. And you guessed it caught looting again..

when i went to bed i had a 50 in the wallet. when i woke up i have 2 20's and a 5.. i think my wife looted me already.

 

Count yourself lucky, it obviously wasn't my wife or you would have only had the five.

This is when we need to brand looters on the spot for the first offense, if they aren't shot. A nice brand across the back of the hand or forearm. Get caught a second time and take a few fingers.

This is the first time I ever walked around my house and property with a loaded handgun on my hip at all times.