January 4, 201313 yr I recently purchased a Remington R-15 and a bunch of accesories.. I'm kind of having buyers remorse.. and considering selling it. After getting it home, I am really starting to reconsider the purchase and regretting not buying a bolt action like i originally intended.. IF (notice IF) I were to list it for sale, so soon after purchase without ever firing it, would that be a straw purchase?? I have 0 intention of making any $ off of it. IF I decided to sell it would literally just be listed for what i have into it...
January 4, 201313 yr No you did not purchase for someone else. You took the rifle home and were not comfortable with it therefore you decided to sell it. Just make sure to have dl fid and coe.
January 4, 201313 yr A straw purchase is when someone who legally can purchase a gun, does so, with the intent to sell it to someone who can not legally purchase one on his/her own. As long as you're selling to someone eligible and with the proper paperwork/documentation, I don't see a problem. Wait for others to weigh-in, as IANAL.
January 4, 201313 yr You and your possible buyer both need to have FID's and valid NJ matching ID's for the transaction. That is my opinion.
January 4, 201313 yr Author that a straw purchas is purchasing a firearm with the intent to sell it to someone else legally or not.
January 4, 201313 yr A straw purchase is when someone who legally can purchase a gun, does so, with the intent to sell it to someone who can not legally purchase one on his/her own. As long as you're selling to someone eligible and with the proper paperwork/documentation, I don't see a problem. Wait for others to weigh-in, as IANAL. A straw purchase is defined as purchasing a firearm you have no intention of keeping. The status of the person to whom you plan on transferring the firearm has no bearing on it. I've posted the statement from the ATF before...here it is again. http://www.atf.gov/p...tf-p-5300-4.pdf 15. straw PURCHASES Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms PURCHASES from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee
January 4, 201313 yr You and your possible buyer both need to have FID's and valid NJ matching ID's for the transaction. That is my opinion. There is no reason a seller needs to have a valid FID or drivers lic to sell a gun. The BUYER needs to have such!
January 4, 201313 yr So much fail in here already. Hey guys guess what. . There are no laws against straw purchases. Just illegal transfers. And for it to be a straw purchase u must buy it on behalf of another person, as in they must ask and give u the money before hand.
January 4, 201313 yr Seems to fall one way or the other on intent. I don't see how a buyers remorse case, where the current owner purchased for himself but then later decided to sell, is a straw purchase. Further the seller does not care who buys it from him, he only wishes to make a lawful sale to recover his money. He has expressed no interest in any specific buyer, but placed a feeler for interest only in a gun forum. IANAL, but this looks kosher to me.
January 4, 201313 yr Isn't there the section where you can't buy a rifle with the intent to resell it (for profit usually- unlicensed dealer?)... But that's not the case here, you legitimately don't like the rifle and want something different. I once sold a shotgun the day after I bought it. I realized it wasn't what I thought it was, and I sold it to the next guy in line that wanted it. FPID and COE of course.
January 4, 201313 yr It is perfectly legal to purchase a gun with no intention of keeping it. There is quite a tradition of "gifting" guns to people. What's illegal is purchasing a gun for a prohibited person. The R15 is one of those Mossy-Oak furniture 4-legged predator rifles. It actually looks really nice and I've never been a big fan of "hunter camo" guns.
January 4, 201313 yr It is perfectly legal to purchase a gun with no intention of keeping it. I posted the information from the ATF. Take it up with them. You're WRONG. Gifting is the only exception.
January 4, 201313 yr Author All PM's replied to. IF I choose to sell, it won't be to a dealer. I'll use my judgement to sell to an individual..
January 4, 201313 yr From the reading of the ATF paragraph, there has to be additional proof or intention that two people made a prior arrangement to go through the purchase. Meaning, it would fall into that ATF definition of straw purchase, IF, the op and another individual made prior arrangements such a way that Op (straw purchaser) would buy and then sell it to the said individual (actual purchaser). I am not a lawyer, so dont take this as advice, but if Op bought the item for himself, with no prior arrangement with anyone else, didnt like and sells to a random buyer following legal framework, I dont see how it falls into that ATF definition of straw purchase. Intent and prior arrangement are key here.
January 4, 201313 yr I posted the information from the ATF. Take it up with them. You're WRONG. Gifting is the only exception. no where in what u posted did it say otherwise. I can buy a ksg today and be with in the law to sell it tomorrow at a higher price with the intent on doing so. No laws have been broken. Instead of telling people there wrong lets starting citing law and not some ATF opinion
January 4, 201313 yr From the reading of the ATF paragraph, there has to be additional proof or intention that two people made an arrangement to go through the purchase. Meaning, it would fall into that ATF definition of straw purchase, IF, the op and another individual made prior arrangements such a way that Op (straw purchased) would buy and then sell it to the said individual (actual purchaser). I am not a lawyer, so dont take this as advice, but if Op bought the item for himself, with no prior arrangement with anyone else, didnt like and sells to a random buyer following legal framework, I dont see how it falls into that ATF definition of straw purchase. Intent and prior arrangement are key here. And as I stated above. I don't believe this to be a straw purchase.
January 4, 201313 yr no where in what u posted did it say otherwise. He stated "It's perfectly legal to buy a gun with no intention of keeping it". That's simply not true. If you are buying the gun to resell it, then you're acting as an unlicensed gun dealer. If you're a buying the gun for someone else, even if they are legally capable of buying the gun, that's a straw purchase. Intent at the time of purchase is what matters otherwise you are falsifying the 4473 document.
January 4, 201313 yr He stated "It's perfectly legal to buy a gun with no intention of keeping it". That's simply not true. If you are buying the gun to resell it, then you're acting as an unlicensed gun dealer. If you're a buying the gun for someone else, even if they are legally capable of buying the gun, that's a straw purchase. Intent at the time of purchase is what matters otherwise you are falsifying the 4473 document. at what point you are considered a dealer I do not know. But what would be falsified on 4473? Also are straw purchases illegal? And what is the law on them? Other then for 4473 question are you the buyer of the gun?
January 4, 201313 yr at what point you are considered a dealer I do not know. But what would be falsified on 4473? Also are straw purchases illegal? And what is the law on them? Other then for 4473 question are you the buyer of the gun? Its not about considering as dealer. Its about lying on a form. On that same form , following wording appears on page 2. "If I am not the actual buyer, is a crime punishable as felony under Federal law and may ....." A friend (who could buy legally on his own) asks you to buy (because he doesnt have time, out of town etc) and you buy with your name on it and then sell it to him - BAD You saw good price, plan to sell it at premium and buy with that intent - BAD Crook asks you to buy for him - obviously BAD You saw good price, you buy for yourself, then got buyers remorse and sell it - OK You bought because you had money, seemed like good deal, but then something happens and you need money immediately, so sell it - OK ----- I am not a lawyer, and this is not a legal advice.
January 4, 201313 yr Get excited at the store buy something on impulse then want to sell it to get what originally wanted? I would sell it and buy what i wanted. As long as the buyer had fid dl and coe you're good to go...
January 4, 201313 yr Author Not really, I've had my eye on it for a long time. I bought it and the accessories I wanted to start with. I want a "sniper style/looking" rifle, and this has that look.. (- the ugly mossy oak) Then started looking online again and seeing the bolt actions got my mind stirring again.. Im leaning towards keeping it, for the simple fun factor of tons of addons and options to play with. But that bolt action, just keeps whispering... me...me..me..
January 4, 201313 yr IMO, your actions do not come under straw purchases or acting as an unlicensed dealer. When you purchased the gun, it was for yourself, for your own use and possession. After the purchase, some time went by and you decided that you made a mistake and don't really like the gun, so you decided to sell it. IMO you are operating within the laws. If you did this activity a few dozen times a year, that may open you up to scrutiny and investigation as to why you tend to purchase so many guns that you change your mind about, and turn around and sell them. I'm sure then things would look fishy.
January 4, 201313 yr Just go to a range and shoot a frew rounds, declare "It is too much gun for me" and sell it the next day. Ta daaa!
January 4, 201313 yr Too may wanna-be-lawyers here. How does one prove intent? If someone gave me a check for the exact amount of the gun being purchased by ME, I cashed it, then proceded to buy it, then transfered it immediately to someone else, then maybe you could show intent. If the buyer, ME, and the second buyer, WHOMEVER, are both legal to own the gun, what is the problem? Give us a NJ statute on the law and definition of a Straw Purchase. Show us how the ATF can impose laws on NJ residents, I am interested to see them. If Paul, or any other FFL's are reading this wonderful thread, what say you about this deal? Would you mind if I walked-in, bought a long gun from you, then went home and sold it to a friend that has a valid FID and matching DL? What's the big deal?
January 4, 201313 yr Too may wanna-be-lawyers here. How does one prove intent? If someone gave me a check for the exact amount of the gun being purchased by ME, I cashed it, then proceded to buy it, then transfered it immediately to someone else, then maybe you could show intent. If the buyer, ME, and the second buyer, WHOMEVER, are both legal to own the gun, what is the problem? Give us a NJ statute on the law and definition of a Straw Purchase. Show us how the ATF can impose laws on NJ residents, I am interested to see them. If Paul, or any other FFL's are reading this wonderful thread, what say you about this deal? Would you mind if I walked-in, bought a long gun from you, then went home and sold it to a friend that has a valid FID and matching DL? What's the big deal? According to ATF, if you told Paul (or your favorite FFL) before hand about this deal to sell, they are in pickle too. Its a different matter IF, HOW ATF is going to enforce their definition. They may not even give a F* about it. And your FFL may not give a F* about it. But when someone asks if it meets ATF definition of Straw Purchase, then it seems. Thats all.
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