I did extensive work at the PVSC. I was there when it was raided. Shining exaple of absolute power and corruption. AS bad as it was it fails to compare to the VA. What an absolute shit house. 6 dudes pushing empty trash cans around all day while stey step over trash in the hallway.

I would say public unions suck, even Roosevelt feared them holding the taxpayers hostage, which they often due. They consider their jobs lifetime appointments and treat accountability like kryptonite. Their leaders are anti gun, anti religion, pro illegals, anti traditional marriage, anti energy, anti small buisness, do I need to continue?T As for our governor he continues to gain more democratic voters to his side, and losing more republicans, hes another McCain, republican in name only. Sorry if anyones butt hurts.

 

but please do its funny when people speak with such conviction yet are wrong....just like the anti gun crowd...seems more like the anti union crowd here are the butthurt ones

Pro discrimination (against white, heterosexual, males- its called affirmative action), anti hunting, anti capitalism, pro higher taxes, still want more reasons not to vote for the public union favorites?

Unions put Obama back in the White House Plain and simple.

 

AFL-CIO was a big part of it, but the real culprits were - are the media

 

 

Wow, this is a tough one, but I'll try to comply. In my opinion, he's only wearing the pin because it represents the State of NJ in looks and has nothing to do with any groups or affiliations, just that fact that it's a cool looking pin in the shape of NJ. How's that?

 

How about just a plain "flag-NJ" pin with out a union logo?

Unions suck

 

Their filled with fat, lazy useless workers that couldn't cut it in the real world.

 

Interesting concept.

 

AFL-CIO was a big part of it, but the real culprits were - are the media

 

 

 

 

How about just a plain "flag-NJ" pin with out a union logo?

 

 

Unless you know that pin he's wearing represents the union, it just looks like a cool pin representing the State of NJ. I fall into the camp of those who had no idea what that pin stood for. To me, it's just a pin that shows he allegiance to NJ.

Pro discrimination (against white, heterosexual, males- its called affirmative action), anti hunting, anti capitalism, pro higher taxes, still want more reasons not to vote for the public union favorites?

 

Ok there must be a breakdown in common sense here....you avid anti union people obviously have varied reasons for your beliefs...I'm not going to stoop to the levels of name calling as you guys have... Saying "all union people are ..this and that " with such ferocity shows your ignorance...by generalizing you ...and I continue to use the antis as an example since I figure it's one you may understand...are no different than the anti gun crowd saying every gun owner is a mass mudering psychopath...there are fat lazy pos people in any aspect of society...and to blame unions for the anti gun anti white anti whatever issues in this country is stupid...

for anyone who believes a union members dues always go to politics, please know this: my shop is currently in a union battle and the first thing i'm going to to once i get a contract is sign their form that says "i do not want my dues to go to political causes"

 

maybe that won't matter to them but i'll know my conscience will be clear.

 

i also understand that unions have hurt a lot of non union businesses, and i don't agree with the state unions such as here in NJ. my mother in law is/was a teacher. shes collecting social security, disability, still working as a substitute teacher and gets her pension. pays something like 1.5 percent of her pay for health insurance and bitches about it.

 

here is my situation: i work in a shop that pays me 9 dollars an hour to do basic service work. my department does about 100 cars a day (yes, one hundred). i have been to school for this and have about 5 years exp in the field. no raise in the 3.5 years i've been there. if i had the family health insurance through them and capped the global deductable it uses (6000 before it covers ANYTHING) i would make only 5000 per year BEFORE taxes. it was time for a union so we brought one in.

 

but i won't vote for someone who will threaten my 2A rights, ever. period.

 

and yes, they say the inflatable rat will be here soon lol.

Let's recap because everyone is sidetracked.

 

1. There should never be unions for public sector government jobs. i.e. teachers

 

2. If you want to form a union for tradesman or other private enterprises, I have no problem with it, so long as there are no OBGLIATIONS to join, or detriments to non-members. Considering NJ is not a right to work state, all of you defending unions are not defending a choice, you are defending something that is forced. There isn't even a debate to be had.

 

I have confidence in right to work states. The moment a union company gets pitted against a non-union company, that union company will get smoked so quickly in the marketplace with all their onerous expenses and dues that people would quickly quit the union to work for the leaner, more profitable firms.

 

Don't you guys think its unfair that a NJ schoolteacher that does NOT want to join their local union, is forced to still hand them over 75% or so of their dues and then still not get any representation? When there is no choice, there is no debate. You are just defending figurative mafia.

here is my situation: i work in a shop that pays me 9 dollars an hour to do basic service work. my department does about 100 cars a day (yes, one hundred). i have been to school for this and have about 5 years exp in the field. no raise in the 3.5 years i've been there. if i had the family health insurance through them and capped the global deductable it uses (6000 before it covers ANYTHING) i would make only 5000 per year BEFORE taxes. it was time for a union so we brought one in.

 

This is exactly why more auto repair shops need to unionize. I have seen dealerships where guys with schooling, certs, and years of experience get $10 an hour and the owners/managers literally drive around the lot in their Porsches and Bentleys and scream at employees over pretty much nothing. The car business makes absurd money off of very hard service/sales work but all the profits go to detached millionaires who never even bother to leave their offices except to treat human beings, who are making them rich, like pieces of garbage. I have seen managers/owners talk to people ways that I would literally not talk to my dog like that.

This is exactly why more auto repair shops need to unionize. I have seen dealerships where guys with schooling, certs, and years of experience get $10 an hour and the owners/managers literally drive around the lot in their Porsches and Bentleys and scream at employees over pretty much nothing. The car business makes absurd money off of very hard service/sales work but all the profits go to detached millionaires who never even bother to leave their offices except to treat human beings, who are making them rich, like pieces of garbage. I have seen managers/owners talk to people ways that I would literally not talk to my dog like that.

 

The reason they get paid 10 dollars an hour, and apparently there are people willing to accept that, is because that is what the market dictates. Competitors to that "evil" car shop are likely paying in the same range. The reason they don't get paid more, is because the market isn't calling for it. If there wasn't a supply of skilled labor for car repair, the owners of the shops would have to increase their pay in order to attract the talent. If that didn't work, they would continue to increase the pay, and therefore would attract other people to learn the trade themselves when they see an opportunity to make a certain salary as a mechanic. It's all part of a system.

 

if a boss is screaming at you at your job and you don't think tolerating that is worth your pay, then quit and go somewhere else. Trust me, there are many doctors and lawyers right now who are in sales jobs. No one cares what education or training you got yesterday. The proposition before you is all that matters. If everyone is paying their mechanics 10 bucks an hour, and one shop decides to pay them 20, the best mechanics will go there, and that shop will likely increase their sales. Business owners do not arbitrarily look to ruin the lives of their employees, it's not in their self interest. They want to pay you what they feel is competitive enough to other shops such that you do not feel inclined to quit.

 

If the jerk millionaire is treating their employees like garbage, everyone should quit working there. He would square up his attitude right quick. I am confident he loves money more than he does yelling at employees

Unions suck

 

Their filled with fat, lazy useless workers that couldn't cut it in the real world.

 

I've been union over 40 years, I ain't fat, lazy, or useless. I work in the real world. I'm a lineman by trade, and proud to be union! Next time your lights go out during a catastrophic storm and you're out of power for while, do me a favor, when the line crew shows up after working long arduous hours, go tell them how fat, lazy and useless they are, I'm sure you'll really appreciate they're response.....

Someone took the bait,,

Someone took the bait,,

 

Hahaha

 

I'm union as well, but my union sucks.

Hahaha

 

I'm union as well, but my union sucks.

 

I know dude, and many of that know you know that and didn't take the bait..

The reason they get paid 10 dollars an hour, and apparently there are people willing to accept that, is because that is what the market dictates. Competitors to that "evil" car shop are likely paying in the same range. The reason they don't get paid more, is because the market isn't calling for it. If there wasn't a supply of skilled labor for car repair, the owners of the shops would have to increase their pay in order to attract the talent. If that didn't work, they would continue to increase the pay, and therefore would attract other people to learn the trade themselves when they see an opportunity to make a certain salary as a mechanic. It's all part of a system.

 

if a boss is screaming at you at your job and you don't think tolerating that is worth your pay, then quit and go somewhere else. Trust me, there are many doctors and lawyers right now who are in sales jobs. No one cares what education or training you got yesterday. The proposition before you is all that matters. If everyone is paying their mechanics 10 bucks an hour, and one shop decides to pay them 20, the best mechanics will go there, and that shop will likely increase their sales. Business owners do not arbitrarily look to ruin the lives of their employees, it's not in their self interest. They want to pay you what they feel is competitive enough to other shops such that you do not feel inclined to quit.

 

If the jerk millionaire is treating their employees like garbage, everyone should quit working there. He would square up his attitude right quick. I am confident he loves money more than he does yelling at employees

 

The 'free market' is bs. Illegals coming to do work for a lot less skews the so called 'free market'. I know of many small companies and restaurants in NYC made up of mostly illegal workers. A regular American guy walking in has no chance. I'm talking carpentry, plaster work, plumbing, cooks even waiters. How can one compete with that? Why pay an American guy more?

Luso, I am sorry to be insulting but your post reeks of idealism and has almost no basis in reality at all.

 

It is not so easy for "everyone to quit" or "just find a new job" as the rich simply treat and pay their employees like garbage. People have bills to pay, kids to feed, you can't just up and walk out of a job, even a shitty one, if it means your kids won't eat or you'll miss a rent payment.

 

There is no need to "attract talent" with soaring unemployment rates, jobs can pay like shit, treat like shit, all because they know that for every guy there is 5 more guys with no job willing to take that crappy one out of necessity.

 

No wonder carpenters have a union, there's a dozen Mexicans outside Home Depot every morning, they will work a 12 hour day with no break, for maybe a hundred bucks or even less. No amount of "free market" idealism can fix that. A union can.

The 'free market' is bs. Illegals coming to do work for a lot less skews the so called 'free market'. I know of many small companies and restaurants in NYC made up of mostly illegal workers. A regular American guy walking in has no chance. I'm talking carpentry, plaster work, plumbing, cooks even waiters. How can one compete with that? Why pay an American guy more?

 

with your argument, why pay a union worker even more than the regular worker who is legal, but not union?

 

You guys look at everything through the prism of NJ. The whole country is not NJ. There are fantastic plumbers, electricians, and carpenters across the country, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they pay union dues. The fact is, if you want to work construction as a carpenter (and I know what I am talking about, my entire family is in construction and my family owns two construction companies) you HAVE to join a union in NYC.

 

If you want to be a teacher, you HAVE to join the union, you don't have a choice. Even if you decline, you still owe them something like 75% of your dues. It's a sham to sit here comparing union to non union. You don't have a choice half the time.

Luso, I am sorry to be insulting but your post reeks of idealism and has almost no basis in reality at all.

 

It is not so easy for "everyone to quit" or "just find a new job" as the rich simply treat and pay their employees like garbage. People have bills to pay, kids to feed, you can't just up and walk out of a job, even a shitty one, if it means your kids won't eat or you'll miss a rent payment.

 

There is no need to "attract talent" with soaring unemployment rates, jobs can pay like shit, treat like shit, all because they know that for every guy there is 5 more guys with no job willing to take that crappy one out of necessity.

 

No wonder carpenters have a union, there's a dozen Mexicans outside Home Depot every morning, they will work a 12 hour day with no break, for maybe a hundred bucks or even less. No amount of "free market" idealism can fix that. A union can.

 

So? go do something else. I have changed my career 4 times in 4 years once. Why do you feel it's your "right" to work in a certain field, and if that field doesn't pay enough, you are justified in complaining? if your field doesn't pay, for whatever reason, you go to a competitor or you find something else to do.

 

Maybe I want to work out of an ice cream truck because I am passionate about ice cream. But guess what, it pays shit. Do I complain that there are tons of unskilled teenagers and 20 year olds driving ice cream trucks, diminishing the value of my pay, therefore I am a victim because I am not able to be paid lavishly doing a certain trade?

 

As for the illegals, I'm with you there, but they are breaking the law, as are the employees paying them and not filing taxes. Don't go down that slippery slope. Next you will tell me there is no difference between your gun and a stolen gun used in the commission of the crime (hence whenever hoodlums use STOLEN guns to do something, your LEGAL guns should be taken to even the playing field). That's the same argument the statists make against firearms. If you break the law, all bets are off. You're right that that is an unfair advantage, but that doesn't make my point incorrect. It just makes the people hiring illegals criminals and tax evaders.

 

Moral of the story, no one is owed a job in a profession. If you want to join a carpenters union, again, I don't inherently have a problem with that, but I do have a problem when I state designates that certain trades are OBLIGATED to be unionized because they say so, and the choice is stripped from the worker.

Here is a for instance. The ConocoPhillips in trainer pa was shut down. Monroe energy (delta) bought it. They are a non union company from Texas. In our territory the building trades worked out a deal to get is back in there for the conversion to jet fuel and start up. They were expecting a bunch of bums. After the job was don't the owner gave a big speech to the plant to all of us. He went on about how surprised they were about how professional we acted and how safely the work was done. Then said we didn't have the "redneck factor" that they get at their non union refineries down south. We now are signed on to do more capital projects and have a few maintenance crews in there. Unions are changing to keep up with the times. Our apprentices are issued uniforms, have laptops and are given homework on top of regular training. Our 5 year apprenticeship program is actually an accredited school.

 

Unions are not the same as they use to be. The bums are being weeded out. The new ones don't make it through the program and our code of conduct program is knocking out the old timers.

I'm another one that had no idea that pin was a union pin, just thought it looked cool. Also, I was in a union for the first 10 years or so of my working career and it really sucked.

This is exactly why more auto repair shops need to unionize. I have seen dealerships where guys with schooling, certs, and years of experience get $10 an hour and the owners/managers literally drive around the lot in their Porsches and Bentleys and scream at employees over pretty much nothing. The car business makes absurd money off of very hard service/sales work but all the profits go to detached millionaires who never even bother to leave their offices except to treat human beings, who are making them rich, like pieces of garbage. I have seen managers/owners talk to people ways that I would literally not talk to my dog like that.

 

you basically described the dealership i work at. to. a. T.

 

 

The reason they get paid 10 dollars an hour, and apparently there are people willing to accept that, is because that is what the market dictates. Competitors to that "evil" car shop are likely paying in the same range. The reason they don't get paid more, is because the market isn't calling for it. If there wasn't a supply of skilled labor for car repair, the owners of the shops would have to increase their pay in order to attract the talent. If that didn't work, they would continue to increase the pay, and therefore would attract other people to learn the trade themselves when they see an opportunity to make a certain salary as a mechanic. It's all part of a system.

 

if a boss is screaming at you at your job and you don't think tolerating that is worth your pay, then quit and go somewhere else. Trust me, there are many doctors and lawyers right now who are in sales jobs. No one cares what education or training you got yesterday. The proposition before you is all that matters. If everyone is paying their mechanics 10 bucks an hour, and one shop decides to pay them 20, the best mechanics will go there, and that shop will likely increase their sales. Business owners do not arbitrarily look to ruin the lives of their employees, it's not in their self interest. They want to pay you what they feel is competitive enough to other shops such that you do not feel inclined to quit.

 

If the jerk millionaire is treating their employees like garbage, everyone should quit working there. He would square up his attitude right quick. I am confident he loves money more than he does yelling at employees

 

unfortunately, yes most of the other dealers in the area are paying similar (albeit SLIGHTLY higher) rates. also unfortunately, there is no one else hiring right now. i could go work at a fast food joint and make more yeah, but no oppurtunity to move up. our owner was very "hurt" and had a big "wake up call" when we unionized. promised to be around more often. we didnt see him until it was time for him to try and decert us. our service manager also has a "stack of applications this thick" of people wanting to get in there if "you don't like it". i doubt everyone quitting would have an effect on their attitudes. they already claim to pay well to "attract talent".

Christy is a big guy, it would have been hard to look for the union label.

you basically described the dealership i work at. to. a. T.

 

 

 

 

unfortunately, yes most of the other dealers in the area are paying similar (albeit SLIGHTLY higher) rates. also unfortunately, there is no one else hiring right now. i could go work at a fast food joint and make more yeah, but no oppurtunity to move up. our owner was very "hurt" and had a big "wake up call" when we unionized. promised to be around more often. we didnt see him until it was time for him to try and decert us. our service manager also has a "stack of applications this thick" of people wanting to get in there if "you don't like it". i doubt everyone quitting would have an effect on their attitudes. they already claim to pay well to "attract talent".

You need to find a different car dealership my friend. I was a service manager for 12 years at the same dealer and most of my techs made 6 digits or very close to it. This was about 15 years ago. Not a union shop, in fact it used to be a union shop the techs voted out the union and the $$$ went up. Just my real life experience.

with your argument, why pay a union worker even more than the regular worker who is legal, but not union?

 

You guys look at everything through the prism of NJ. The whole country is not NJ. There are fantastic plumbers, electricians, and carpenters across the country, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they pay union dues. The fact is, if you want to work construction as a carpenter (and I know what I am talking about, my entire family is in construction and my family owns two construction companies) you HAVE to join a union in NYC.

 

If you want to be a teacher, you HAVE to join the union, you don't have a choice. Even if you decline, you still owe them something like 75% of your dues. It's a sham to sit here comparing union to non union. You don't have a choice half the time.

 

You didn't understand what I wrote and if you know anything about construction in NYC, you would know only the really big projects are union. The rest, not so much.

You need to find a different car dealership my friend. I was a service manager for 12 years at the same dealer and most of my techs made 6 digits or very close to it. This was about 15 years ago. Not a union shop, in fact it used to be a union shop the techs voted out the union and the $$$ went up. Just my real life experience.

 

are you still in the industry? i don't mean disrespect by that, just an honest question. i've been in three dealerships since i started this and out of the 60 or 70 techs i've worked with only ONE made 6 figures. people at my place now USED to make that kind of money, but cars are more reliable now, people are buying less upsells etc etc. every service manager a dick, every service writer an idiot (typical tech bitching i know, but it is true from my standpoint). i have yet to work in a dealership where the technicians are treated fairly.

 

i have tried to find new work, in several places. the jobs aren't there man. may i ask where you worked?

Yeah, don't even get me started on service advisers...LOL

If you want to be a teacher, you HAVE to join the union, you don't have a choice.

The private school where I used to work wasn't a union environment...

you basically described the dealership i work at. to. a. T.

 

 

Mine too.

are you still in the industry? i don't mean disrespect by that, just an honest question. i've been in three dealerships since i started this and out of the 60 or 70 techs i've worked with only ONE made 6 figures. people at my place now USED to make that kind of money, but cars are more reliable now, people are buying less upsells etc etc. every service manager a dick, every service writer an idiot (typical tech bitching i know, but it is true from my standpoint). i have yet to work in a dealership where the technicians are treated fairly.

 

i have tried to find new work, in several places. the jobs aren't there man. may i ask where you worked?

Grabbed the golden ring and work for the manufacturer now. My old dealer is in Somerset County, German car company, prefer not to say more then that. I stop in from time to time and my guys admit it's not as good as it once was but they are still doing fine. As for service writers, walk a mile in their shoes my friend. I made ALL my techs work the service desk for a week every year. And I busted them hard if they didn't look and act perfectly professional. They hated it, but I also had really good service writer/tech relations.